Heresy 45

[Profion]

Thanks BC for bringing this interesting quote to the board. I would really like to know more about Nissa Nissa. I would imagine that she had some unique qualities...

This sort of makes me think: What if Nissa Nissa had not been warm, but had been cold? I wonder how that might change the properties of the blade...

What if the 'Night's King' decided to temper his blade with the heart of his 'Night's Queen"? Would the resulting sword be called 'Ice'?

Ohhhh I liked that!! It kinda matches my theory that the "Ice" sword of the Starks is nothing but a replacement for the real Ice, a sword made of nevermelting ice that was lost, and was the sword of the Winter Kings...

[Black Crow]

I forgot, have we discussed the Ouroboros in aSoIaF?

In Short The Ouroboros often represents self-reflexivity or cyclicality, especially in the sense of something constantly re-creating itself, the eternal return, and other things perceived as cycles that begin anew as soon as they end (compare with phoenix). [from wikipedia, how dare I]

I have only noticed two times of the ouroboros being used. Viserion: She [Dany] finds him [Viserion] lying coiled around a pear tree, with his head resting on his tail.

And then we have house Tolands sigil of a dragon biting it's own tail. Along with a prophetic dream of dragons dancing nad destruction.

Is it worth delving deeper into? Becasue I've noticed(personally) that it seems like a lot of history is seemingly repeating itself, and how the new generation has to fix the problems of the old. Like things are cycling through.

It has been mentioned in passing, but GRRM certainly talks through the books of history forever repeating itself, which is why we spend so much time on the heresy threads looking at what has happened and trying to see exactly where its happening again, not just in obvious stuff like the Nights King but in other more subtle ways as well.

[Black Crow]

I'm going to reiterate my thoughts on Azor Ahai here: I think that Azor Ahai was the same person as the Last Hero and that the prophecy is simply a corruption of the Last Hero's tale. My personal belief is that thousands of years ago, likely after the Andals conquered most of Westeros, trade between them and Essos started up again and tales of the beliefs and religion of the First Men traveled to the east. There, it eventually made its way to Asshai where a religion focused on the worship of a god of fire and light heard about it. Over time, the tale itself began to mutate and became a prophecy about a guy wielding a flaming sword... because that's exactly what they'd expect a messianic figure to use. In reality, though, Azor Ahai is the Last Hero and even if he comes again, he isn't the agent of fire that those who worship R'hllor believe him to be. I think the same process happened to the Valyrian prophecy of the prince that was promised. While those in Asshai believed that a hero would wield a flaming sword, the Targaryens heard the tale from red priests and morphed the figure into one of royalty. All three figures are the same person and if he does come again, it would likely be as a servant of the old gods.

Not entirely a new idea, but one that conjures enticing visions of Mel getting a nasty shock of the beware what you ask for variety...

[A Loner... A Rebel]

I have been reading heresy for awhile and finally felt like adding to the discussion...

After considering some of the items brought up... I started wondering if the original "last hero" or AA is going to be the same as the old one.

Looking at the Ossian legend or even the similar King Herla(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herla) we have people going to an "Other" world (Land of always winter?) and returning still youthful (cold preserves afterall)... What if tptwp/AA/LH is litterally coming back?

Alternately - what if Bran IS the Ossian/Herla figure? trapped under a hill (ala King Herla) with odd creatures (COTF instead of hooved dwarves) with no concept of time (the wiernet seems to exist outside of time)... What if Bran can emerge several years/months into his training 300+ years into the future

[Black Crow]

One of the things we have discussed before is this business of time moving differently. As you obviously know its pretty much a staple of Sidhe lore that a human enters the Faerie realms and comes out again the very next morning to find a hundred years or more have passed in the human realm.

The business of Bran in the cave certainly seems to suggest this. As you'll have noticed if you've been lurking for a while some of us have our suspicions about the charade outside the cave, whether the Children are really as cuddly as some people outside of Heresy think, and that the passage of time in there seems a bit strange. So yes, once again, we're seeing themes which are very recognisable in Celtic/Faerie lore - but perhaps not so obvious to readers unacquainted with it.

[The Chequered Raven]

You are from the same taxonomic genus...

But yes, agree, the Raven is far superior to the Crow

Thanks, at least one who does not deny the truth!

We're not to blame for our little brothers failtures...

[redriver]

Oisin and the story of Tir Na Nog is pretty much a cherished legend where I come from,which is Ireland.

And there is nothing to connect it to the Song of Ice and Fire.

Nothing,nada,zip,in effect,zero.

[The Chequered Raven]

Nope. Ravens are Corvidae, members of the crow family. Bigger than ordinary crows but still crows. :P

Little brother, your lack of respect is grievous! Pouring salt in the wound is not noble... :crying:

[A Loner... A Rebel]

Oisin and the story of Tir Na Nog is pretty much a cherished legend where I come from,which is Ireland.

And there is nothing to connect it to the Song of Ice and Fire.

Nothing,nada,zip,in effect,zero.

Maybe that is only because we do not know more about the original LH/AA/PTWP? What if AA went to the Other world to stop the long night.... if he didn't age the original AA could be the AA everyone is waiting for....

Also - couldn't Bran be more like the story of King Herla - going into a hill where time does not exist... seems paralell to me...

[redriver]

Maybe that is only because we do not know more about the original LH/AA/PTWP? What if AA went to the Other world to stop the long night.... if he didn't age the original AA could be the AA everyone is waiting for....

Also - couldn't Bran be more like the story of King Herla - going into a hill where time does not exist... seems paralell to me...

Herla,who the hell is that?

[A Loner... A Rebel]

King Herla http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herla

he is the leader of the wild hunt... if Bran IS working for the others (wild hunt), this might fit

[Frey family reunion]

I forgot, have we discussed the Ouroboros in aSoIaF?

In Short The Ouroboros often represents self-reflexivity or cyclicality, especially in the sense of something constantly re-creating itself, the eternal return, and other things perceived as cycles that begin anew as soon as they end (compare with phoenix). [from wikipedia, how dare I]

I have only noticed two times of the ouroboros being used. Viserion: She [Dany] finds him [Viserion] lying coiled around a pear tree, with his head resting on his tail.

And then we have house Tolands sigil of a dragon biting it's own tail. Along with a prophetic dream of dragons dancing nad destruction.

Is it worth delving deeper into? Becasue I've noticed(personally) that it seems like a lot of history is seemingly repeating itself, and how the new generation has to fix the problems of the old. Like things are cycling through.

The Ouroboros has also been used to represent the concept of reincarnation.

Much like Hinduism mandates cremation to encourage the soul to leave it's body and take up a new destination, the Targaryen practice of cremation likewise encourages the spirit to begin a new life in a new body.

My guess is Rhaegar's birth on the day of the Summerhall tragedy means that one or more of the victims of that tragedy were reborn within Rhaegar. Likewise Rhaegar's death and subsequent cremation may have occurred around the time of Dany's birth signifying that Rhaegar's spirit may have been resurrected with Dany.

This explains Rhaegar's psychic connection with Summerhall and Dany's dreams and visions concerning Rhaegar and his death on the Trident which tend to morph into a vision of her in Rhaegar's armor.

Also Drago, Rhaego, and Mirri's cremation on the funeral pyre lead to their rebirth in Dany's three dragons. I believe that Drago is reincarnated as Dragon, Rhaego is reincarnated as Viserion, and Mirri is reincarnated as Rhaegal. Drago is independant, attracted to the battle arena (like Drogo was attracted to the fighting at his wedding), exhibits wanderlust, and ultimately returns to his hunting grounds on the Dothraki sea. Mirri is the meanest, toasts Quentyn, and is described at the end of ADWD as nesting in a pyramid like a fat lady bedecked in jewels. Finally Viserion is the most childlike the most dependant on Dany, attracted to Ben Plumm because of the Targaryen bloodlines they share, nestles up to Pretty Meris like he's looking for his mother, and only attacks Quentyn's crew when he is attacked first.

[Black Crow]

Herla,who the hell is that?

Matter of differing spellings. I was slightly confused myself at first glance, but I know him better as Herne the Hunter.

ETA: I'd just like to add that making due allowance for our being in GRRM's world rather than our own, I'd say that Coldhands fits better than Bran.

[Black Crow]

And a final thought for tonight before I wend my way to bed...

If we are to associate Coldhands with Herne the Hunter (or King Herla if you prefer) we come back once again to the question of his identity - and to Old Nan's "warning" that all crows are liars and that in Faerie lore very close attention has to be paid to what you're agreeing - something which Bran may yet live to regret - I'd offer a couple of observations.

He has his face muffled up. This is presumed to hide his identity which may mean that he is indeed Benjen Stark, but could equally, or even more likely, mask the fact that he is a Stark. Remember that the Starks appear to be very recognisable with every Tom, Dick and Harry commenting that Jon has the look of a Stark about him.

So if he's not Benjen Stark, is he Brandon Stark, the Nights King as was? A popular theory, but one I think undermined by the fact he was overthrown by his brother rather than by the Faerie lot and therefore more like to receive six feet of Westerosi soil than be condemned to wander.

Which is why I wonder if he might in fact be the Last Hero - the last of a brotherhood of 13 rangers who set out on a grail quest to seek the aid of the Children to recover what the armies of men had lost.

As we discussed a few Heresies back the fact his name is apparently unknown suggests that he never came back to have boys, racehorses, dogs and schools and other public buildings, named after him.

Yet the Children helped him.

It would however be very much in line with Faerie lore for that help to come with a hidden price, that he should serve them to the end of days or until something unlikely happened, in effect cursed like Herne the Hunter - and might not also the fact of his riding a great elk rather than a horse be a pointer to this.

[Profion]

I agree about the Raven being better than the Crow, just ask Edgar Allan Poe. xD

[Sojourner]

Here's a random theory. Pretty sure the timeline is not correct, but just thought of it when perusing another thread.

-The Andals at some period successfully invade the North because... boats, even if to just get past Moat Cailin.

-the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch was a Stark, heard of Winterfell being sacked or KITN dead.

-This LC made pact with the Others in order to reclaim homeland. "seed and soul". Becomes Night's King.

-When the hell was the Long Night again?

-Some great big battle, Andals driven out. Night's King dead or taken by Others in payment? re-establishing of Magical Stark bloodline, all that juicy heresy stuff.

-unofficial treaty, like what happened with that French King of England in 1217-1217, covering up entire affair.

-status quo of non-Andal North returns due to Others intervention.

-or, the Night's King could make pact with Others because of the peace-treaty from the Long Night.

Had a bad night's sleep so the little grey cells may not be working. I'll leave it to better minds to deem method or madness.

[Tyryan Lannister]

And a final thought for tonight before I wend my way to bed...

Good night, Your Grace. May your night be dark and full of terrors.

If we are to associate Coldhands with Herne the Hunter (or King Herla if you prefer) we come back once again to the question of his identity - and to Old Nan's "warning" that all crows are liars and that in Faerie lore very close attention has to be paid to what you're agreeing - something which Bran may yet live to regret - I'd offer a couple of observations.

Maybe the warding of the caves/Wall and what not is not so much a "you cannot pass because there is a physical barrier that will block you from doing so (ie an invisible brick wall)" but more of an "if you come into the territory of this ward you will return to your natural state (which in the case of CH and the wights, is one of being dead)" would also explain why Jafer and Othor were able to reawaken on the other side of the Wall... the area of spacetime occupied by the Wall is warded, while the areas on either side of it are not

He has his face muffled up. This is presumed to hide his identity which may mean that he is indeed Benjen Stark, but could equally, or even more likely, mask the fact that he is a Stark. Remember that the Starks appear to be very recognisable with every Tom, Dick and Harry commenting that Jon has the look of a Stark about him.

Hmmm.... we already have Tom tied up in the Alayne (hidden Sansa) story line through Tom o' Sevens working for Stoneheart; we also already have a Dick previously in that storyline through Dick Crabb thinking he was assisting Brienne in finding Sansa. And now, we have Harold the Heir (Harry for short?) supposedly going to be wed to Alayne if Littlefinger's plans go as he wants... might this be a case of "Tom, Dick, and HARRY" knowing what is up with Alayne and her latent Starkness???

So if he's not Benjen Stark, is he Brandon Stark, the Nights King as was? A popular theory, but one I think undermined by the fact he was overthrown by his brother rather than by the Faerie lot and therefore more like to receive six feet of Westerosi soil than be condemned to wander.

But what if, to help perpetrate the possibly erroneous claims of "procreating with demons" and whatnot that we here in Heresyland believe in, The Stark declared that he would not be allowed to be buried on Stark Soil (ie south of the Wall) because he befouled the family and was not welcome there?

As we discussed a few Heresies back the fact his name is apparently unknown suggests that he never came back to have boys, racehorses, dogs and schools and other public buildings, named after him.

You talking Last Hero name unknown or Night's King name unknown? For LH, agree with suggestion; for NK, name unknown easily explained by cover up and striking of from records etc.

It would however be very much in line with Faerie lore for that help to come with a hidden price, that he should serve them to the end of days or until something unlikely happened, in effect cursed like Herne the Hunter - and might not also the fact of his riding a great elk rather than a horse be a pointer to this.

Agreed

[Tyryan Lannister]

Here's a random theory. Pretty sure the timeline is not correct, but just thought of it when perusing another thread.

-The Andals at some period successfully invade the North because... boats, even if to just get past Moat Cailin.

-the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch was a Stark, heard of Winterfell being sacked or KITN dead.

-This LC made pact with the Others in order to reclaim homeland. "seed and soul". Becomes Night's King.

-When the hell was the Long Night again?

-Some great big battle, Andals driven out. Night's King dead or taken by Others in payment? re-establishing of Magical Stark bloodline, all that juicy heresy stuff.

-unofficial treaty, like what happened with that French King of England in 1217-1217, covering up entire affair.

-status quo of non-Andal North returns due to Others intervention.

-or, the Night's King could make pact with Others because of the peace-treaty from the Long Night.

Had a bad night's sleep so the little grey cells may not be working. I'll leave it to better minds to deem method or madness.

Going with madness!

But you're in the right place for that (according to all the non-believers who will be left in shame when we are all proven correct :devil: )

I like the idea, except that the two documented occasions of the Andals coming to the North were: when the Andal pirates established themselves at the Wolf's Den and were driven out by Brandon Ice-Eyes; and the Manderlies being given the Den as their own (where they found White Harbor)

Also, just gotta add, god I love Manderlies... Wyman is fucking badass as hell and they are at this point as much North if not more than even the Boltons or Karstarks, cause I don't think Wyman would ever betray the Starks at all, whatsoever, for any reason... dude's the shit (sorry for my Manderly uberlove fest, but Wyman is just fucking great)... But the main reason I bring up the Greatest Andal Family that Ever was or Will Be is because I believe that (outside of at the Wall) they are the only Andals to have ever gained any sort of foothold in our beloved North

[Addam of Hull]

Going with madness!

But you're in the right place for that (according to all the non-believers who will be left in shame when we are all proven correct :devil: )

I like the idea, except that the two documented occasions of the Andals coming to the North were: when the Andal pirates established themselves at the Wolf's Den and were driven out by Brandon Ice-Eyes; and the Manderlies being given the Den as their own (where they found White Harbor)

Also, just gotta add, god I love Manderlies... Wyman is fucking badass as hell and they are at this point as much North if not more than even the Boltons or Karstarks, cause I don't think Wyman would ever betray the Starks at all, whatsoever, for any reason... dude's the shit (sorry for my Manderly uberlove fest, but Wyman is just fucking great)... But the main reason I bring up the Greatest Andal Family that Ever was or Will Be is because I believe that (outside of at the Wall) they are the only Andals to have ever gained any sort of foothold in our beloved North

The story of how House Manderly came to be beholden to House Stark strikes me as a testament to how welcoming the North can be to those that ask. For thousands of years, various Andal families and kings threw their forces against the North, trying with all their might to get a foothold and being driven out each and every time. All it took, though, for the Manderlys was for them to simply ask and the Starks welcomed them with open arms. And look at what they've done! White Harbor is the biggest city in their region and House Manderly likely has the largest military force of any of the Starks' bannermen. While they keep the Seven and have a Sept, they're still Northmen through and through.

[Toccs]

I like the idea, except that the two documented occasions of the Andals coming to the North were: when the Andal pirates established themselves at the Wolf's Den and were driven out by Brandon Ice-Eyes; and the Manderlies being given the Den as their own (where they found White Harbor)

Just a small note, the slavers. who took the Wolf's Den and were driven out by Brandon Ice Eyes were explicitly stated to be from the Step Stones. The early Andal landing in White Harbor that myself and others have often talked about is the unidentified "sea raiders" that were driven out by King Rickard Stark.