Are the Starks too remote/isolated, backwaterish to be considered good matches in the south?

[Fetch me a block]

Robert himself agreed to the match, after Ned talked her up to him. We don't know if his possibly more politically minded parents would've agreed.

The Riverlands border the north, so friending them makes sense.

See Jaime and Lysa match making attempt.

You didn't read the books if you think Tywin would marry his daughter to the second son of a backwater family.

Ned had best be willing to settle for second and third daughters and nieces.

I love the Starks, but they're a poorish pagan backwater with old blood.

The first three blemishes kinda nullify the last positive, imo.

How are they backwater? Probably the oldest house in Westeros, certainly the oldest Great House, probably pretty rich, large, strong armies, rich history etc.

If Tywin was prepared to marry his first son to the second daughter of Tully, I'm sure he would have married him to a Stark.

[Ivashanko]

Hence, the Starks are most likely wealthier than the Martells. It's just that the Starks spend it on necessities, rather than on ostentatious displays of wealth. Conspicious consumption is not their thing.

You know, I don't understand why a world that has winters that can last decades would even have more people in a land directly affected by it than a land that doesn't seem bothered by it at all. Yes, we can assumed that there are genetic differences between our world's humans/animals and their world's humans/animals that let them survive through long winters better (otherwise there would be no animals north of a certain point), but still...

[Naathi Prince]

You know, I don't understand why a world that has winters that can last decades would even have more people in a land directly affected by it than a land that doesn't seem bothered by it at all. Yes, we can assumed that there are genetic differences between our world's humans/animals and their world's humans/animals that let them survive through long winters better (otherwise there would be no animals north of a certain point), but still...

The winters don't last decades, typically the seasons last a year or two. As for how the North could have more people than Dorne...most of Dorne is desert

[Ivashanko]

The winters don't last decades, typically the seasons last a year or two. As for how the North could have more people than Dorne...most of Dorne is desert

I said the winters can last decades- and some of the characters lived through one that last at least a decaded, iirc. And even 'a year or two' could be disastrous. Desert is good when the entire northern realm is starving due to lack of crops.

[Fetch me a block]

To answer the question, the Starks are right up there at the top of marriage candidates. They just don't get involved all that much, probably because they are traditionally mistrustful of 'Southrons' and the two regions are isolated from each other.

[Fetch me a block]

I said the winters can last decades- and some of the characters lived through one that last at least a decaded, iirc. And even 'a year or two' could be disastrous. Desert is good when the entire northern realm is starving due to lack of crops.

Yes, but where the fuck are you going to grow anything in Dorne? What do they do, eat peppers?

[Naathi Prince]

I said the winters can last decades- and some of the characters lived through one that last at least a decaded, iirc. And even 'a year or two' could be disastrous. Desert is good when the entire northern realm is starving due to lack of crops.

One winter, in prehistory, lasted decades, and one of the oldest characters in the series remembers a winter that lasted almost a decade. Not to mention there are winter crops and you can store many things.

[Howling Mad]

Why all the Stark hatred? Its one the great houses, seat of the warden of the north, and the largest land holding of any lordship. The only hiccup in making southern and northern marriage packs is the fact the southern and northern lords rarely interact and therefore don't know each other very well.

[KittensRuleBeetsDrool]

Yay for resurrecting a year-old thread! Just call me Thoros. :D

The Starks are hardly poor. Just for a few examples:

- Arya, tomboy Arya who didn't like fancy dresses, was described as having a gray velvet dress (Sansa wanted her to wear it to meet Cersei) and a chest of silk and velvet dresses (Ned caught her hiding Needle under the dresses). Sansa had silks and jewelry (she was deciding what jewelry to wear when she was to plead for mercy for Ned, and picked two bracelets).

- Catelyn was dispensing silver stags as tips to boatmen when she went south with no inner agonizing as to whether she could afford it

- Theon, who was Ned's ward, not even his child, arrived at the Iron Islands with nice clothes and jewelry. He admits to paying the "gold price" for his rings. I doubt Theon had a summer job down at the tavern washing dishes, so someone - namely, Ned - must have enough money for even his ward to have fine clothes and jewelry.

None of the Starks ever think about how poor they are. True, there are some luxuries that they don't have (like snails for dinner) but I never noted any Stark saying "I can't afford that." Aside from Ned thinking that the tournament in GoT cost too much money, but he was thinking of the royal coffers, not himself personally.

They probably wore more wool than silk, because of the weather, but fine wool was costly in the real life Middle Ages and even royalty did wear good wool a lot of the time. I doubt even the Umbers and Karstarks were going around in roughspun.

Somewhere, (maybe on this board?) I read a theory that the lack of singers at Winterfell was because Ned didn't want any word getting out about Jon and was afraid some enterprising bard might spin a wild tale and someone would put two and two together. In any event, Sansa knew how to play the harp and the bells, and write poetry. Arya learned a bit of High Valyrian and I assume Sansa did too. Their education was not stinted. Jon could afford to gift Arya with a good sword.

The Starks may have stayed out of Southern marriage politics for the most part until Rickard's era, but the Arryns were happy to take Ned as a ward, and Hoster and the Baratheons glad to marry their children into the family. As others have noted, the North is remote, and the Northerners have a different religion, so they seem more different than they actually were.

The North and Dorne's economies: Dorne seems to have trafficked in luxury foods such as citrus and pomegranates, as well as trade items from Essos. The North probably supplied the nobles of the realm with the vair, sable and ermine that they wore, wool cloth, and timber.

The Starks seem to have been as well off as anyone, and probably better off than the Greyjoys or even the Baratheons. They just didn't want to freeze their behinds off wearing silk in the winter.

[Good Guy Garlan]

The Starks have the prestige that other houses lack, even if they're richer. Take the Tyrells for example. They still have that little thorn (pun intended) at their side reminding them how they were just stewards. Marrying someone from a family who were actually kings could help with their image, maybe. And a Stark-Tyrell alliance would be great

[Winds of Winter blow cold]

Considering how many people are trying to marry Sansa, I would say not.

[Djinn]

The Starks are one of the Great families of Westeros, commanding a entire region, with prestige, wealth and power. Any Stark would be a catch to most Southern families. They not so much backwater or hillbillies as frugal. It's more of the underdevelopment and remoteness of the North that creates that image. They are no more backwater that the Greyjoys, have greater prestige that the Tully or Tyrell and likely wealthier that the Baratheon(Stormlands or Dragonstone branches). Overall, only the Royal family, the Lannisters and the Arryns could likely be seen as with more to offer as matches. The idea likely comes off as result of a mixture of frugality, remoteness and lack of sophistication. The North, on the other hand, does have a certain degree of backwater in some areas.

[Pod The Impaler]

Considering how many people are trying to marry Sansa, I would say not.

Well, they love her claim, at least if they think the land is up for grabs.

One thing about the Starks is that compared to the rest of the Seven-worshipping Andal-ish Westeros, they would be considered pagans.

Religion is important not just spiritually in this feudal world, but socially and politically too. Anyone considering marrying their child to a Northern house may consider it a negative.

It may be full of stereotypes but people do think this way.

[Gneisenau]

Tywin asked Tyrion why he was satisfied with a high class women like Sansa Stark and Jorah married Lynesse just by winning a tournament, so no the south doesn't really look down on the north.

[Minsc]

Besides the Targaryens, I would probably put the Starks up there with the Arryns, Lannisters, and Martells as the highest level for marriages. With the Tullys, Tyrells, and Baratheons coming up after them and after that the Hightowers, Redwynes, Royces, Manderlys, and Greyjoys.

[KittensRuleBeetsDrool]

Besides the Targaryens, I would probably put the Starks up there with the Arryns, Lannisters, and Martells as the highest level for marriages. With the Tullys, Tyrells, and Baratheons coming up after them and after that the Hightowers, Redwynes, Royces, Manderlys, and Greyjoys.

And speaking of Greyjoys - if any Great House (or powerful lesser house) is composed of poor hicks, it is them. We don't see mainland houses begging to marry their daughters to the Lords of Pyke. The exceptions I can think of are: Balon Greyjoy's stepmother was a Piper. She may or may not even be the daughter of the ruling Lord Piper of the time. And one of the Harlaws married a Serrett of the Westerlands. The Harlaws seem to be an exception to the general Ironborn rule, and that island seems to be productive on its own without the need for raiding - it's supposed to be the richest of the islands. But again, we don't know if that particular Serrett woman was the daughter of the ruling lord or a niece or cousin.

The Iron Islands are pagan, with the added disadvantages of 1) they are poor and a backwater, 2) their culture would probably give most mainland fathers pause about giving daughters in marriage there, and 3) at least until recently, they raided the mainland. Perhaps the Piper and/or Serrett girls were married into the Islands in hope of stopping raids. (Note, according to a map I consulted, Silverhill, the Serrett castle, is far inland. http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Silverhill No way the Ironborn were going to get there on ships. How a Harlaw met a Serrett girl I have no idea.)

[PrimeRhaegar]

no they are a great house with a old and famous name so any house would want to marry into them.

[the conquoring bastard25]

I would think that any daughter of a lesser high born house should jump at the chance to marry into the stark family. Aside from being so far north and not as cultured. The starks are the OLD Money of Westeros. From a Baratheon regime(not counting the storm kings female line) they are 300 years old, of bastard branch of house Targ and rule a poor region. They don't even have a valyrian steel blade. The Tyrells stink of new money, before Aegon they were stewards and their title to Highgarden is doggy at best, while their less powerful cousins the Florents want their castle back nor do they have a valaryian steel blade and I bet it chafs Mace ass that his bestfriend Tarly has a ancestral blade heartbane(eater?). Don't the hightowers have a valayria steel blade Vigilance right? No matter what Mace does he will always be an upstarts, the same as the Tullys. Cat may not have wanted to marry Brandon, but he was doing her the favor as she was marrying up. Same thing that applies for house Tyrell applies to house Tully on the grand scheme of statue, money, prestigue the Tully's come up short when measured next to the Starks. The only houses that I could see holding a candle to the Starks are the Daynes, Hightowers, Lannisters, Arryns....

Not to mention that before Robb they have never been on a losing side of a war. I don't count Aegon and his conquest as he didn't actually fight the Starks and the King did as a king is suppose to do, when you know your defeated it's best to make your peace.

So marrying your daughter or son to a Stark, you know that your child is more than likely if male to be a bad ass. Think about the stories that must be told of the northerns. That they would steal into the beds of highborn girls and steal them back north. That they are all wargs and drink the blood of their enemies when the moon is high. That's why direwolves run at their heels. That they're savages that worship the wrong gods... Such stories would make men fear and respect them. What was it that Tyrion said to Joffery, when talking to a monster it's best to speak softly. IT's best to not piss off a Stark their wolves would rip your throat out(before the direwolves died out but is true now that they are back.) OF course I'm exaggerating the stories as I don't know them but I don't think that they would be telling stories in the Twins of Wargs and such if they hadn't heard it before from somewhere. Then lastly they are heir to a blade that at least it's name goes back to the dawn of heros how many houses can claim that?

[juanml82]

The Starks are certainly not seen as backwards. Now, the Reeds, the Mountain Clans, the Skagosi and maybe the Mormonts are another matter.

[Andrew the Raider King!]

An interesting question and one that I think needs thinking about. However my first impression is the Starks are and always have been a proud lot, but more in the tradition of the Children of the Forest and the First Men. They withstood the invasion of the Andals and even when dealing with Aegon the Conqueror, that took place below the neck. It has kept that bloodline damn near pure in the face of the new Gods and even untouched by the steps of Dragons. So yes in a strange way they are so isolated, much like Dorne or the Iron Islands, and have strange customs compared to their southern neighbors. However, as far as matches go, it seemed they were making efforts to stretch out a wee bit, particularly with Robert from the far south and Lyanna, a head strong Northern girl. Come to think of it, she was like a country girl here in the southern U.S. They want to be one of the boys, except when it isn't time to be one of the boys. But don't think they won't buck you.