Are the Starks too remote/isolated, backwaterish to be considered good matches in the south?

[analeigh]

If anything, I would think that a Southern house able to gain a Stark groom or bride into their family would be envied by so many rather than looked down upon. It's not just that the Starks are a Great House, with an old established royal lineage, a great landmass to rule over, and considerable wealth. But it's the fact that traditionally, they rarely marry off their sons or daughters to families outside of the North. They're extremely selective when it comes to who they choose to marry their offspring to. Over time, that choosiness really makes them more desirable to those who can't seem to get close to them, especially Southern houses of prestige who feel excluded from being thought of as suitable candidates to the Stark heirs and heiresses. Southern houses may not be thrilled about sending their daughters north to marry the Stark heir, but when they aren't even considered as suitable candidates for the Starks and are automatically excluded as worthy brides or grooms, that does sting a little bit.

It's no wonder that when Rickard Stark started to shop for suitors for his kids in the South that both House Tully and House Baratheon jumped at that chance. It's an opportunity that hasn't been presented to the majority of Westerosi houses in generations and passing it up is a mistake.

[greggs92]

People saying starks are poor, in got when bran is riding in that town outside winterfell he mentions how its empty but once winter comes the snallfolk will come, the starks are smart and help their people whats more inportant in winter a gold jewelry or food and supplies for your people? Thats power being able to take care of those who need help, that doesnt sound like a Blackwood savage to me sounds honorable

[TheKingoftheSevenKingdoms]

no, absolutely not. The Starks are viewed in a very positive light in the South, mainly in the Riverlands, the Vale, the Stormlands and possibly Dorne (The Martells do not seem to hold any grudge against the Starks for their role in Robert's Rebellion. All things considered, I think Doran would have supported the Young Wolf if the North had been neighbours with Dorne like the Riverlands.). Even Tywin Lannister has respect for the North and House Stark.

I think many southern houses would be extremely happy to allow their daughter's to marry into House Stark (Hey, Jorah Mormont got Lynesse Hightower, and the Mormonts are considered relatively poor). Who wouldn't want a grandson to be future Lord of Winterfell, and the future Lord & Warden of the North, with is as big as the South combined.

The thing is, until Rickard and his southern ambitions, the Starks of the main line never really married anyone from the South. I certainly think it's possible that many female Starks married into southern noble houses (Stark women are generally regarded as good-looking as they mature), but for the Winterfell lords and heirs? Not that many. As Jon says in ADWD to Stannis, half of the northern nobles have blood connections to the Starks. That's probably why Stark bannermen are generally really loyal to Winterfell.

I definitely think it likely that the Tullys and the Arryns have married into the Stark's before Lord Rickard's betrothed Brandon to Cateyln.

Also, the Stark's were once Kings In the North.

I think most southern women just don't want to live up North. A woman of the South would have to be brave to become Lady of Winterfell for it mean's enduring many things.

[averde]

If you look at most of the noble families marriages in Westeros the vast majority are within the same paramount region (Tyrells to other reach houses like Redwynes for example). Besides events like Roberts Rebellion or the War of 5 Kings there's no reason for marriages outside your region.

[MyaStoned]

Aside from the kingdoms that are geographically closest, like the Eyrie and Riverlands?

We know the Lannisters generally consider the north a desolate wild, and that Redwynne(iirc) considers the north generally worthless.

I know the Starks are technically above them, but would an offer from Rickard to match lets say Lyanna to the hightower heir be entertained?

Or Robb to a hightower firstborn maid?

We know that the Martells were willing to ally with a house an entire kingdom away(Lannisters), but they're the richest house in the realm, and descended from kings.

Would the Hightowers or another high profile southern house do so?

Before someone throws Robert/Lyanna, he decided the match, after being friends with Ned for years and hearing about her from her brothers lips. And Robert isn't the smartest guy, even if he has good intentions.

Who's to say if his parents would've been ok with such a far flung alliance?

Am i mistaken, or is there something to it?

What seems to get overlooked here is that the North is a vastly different culture - it really is like a different kingdom from the South. They worship different gods, keep different customs, have different values. The Starks are THE greatest House in the history of Westeros, all-time, and in more recent times are second only to the Targs. But they aren't rich by southern standards, they live in a cold frozen hell, they have strange, 'uncouth' customs that can seem backwards or barbaric to 'refined' southerners, etc.

I know the Sansa fangirls will be up in arms at this, but if you want to see the difference between North and South, compare the average Northerner we meet with Sansa, who basically disdains her own cultural identity and willfully becomes a Southron. They are worlds apart. And it's clear which is actually better, incidentally.

edited to add

analeigh's post also touches on something I was going to mention, which is that the Starks and all Northerners are much more interested in marrying within their own lands than in fostering alliances with other kingdoms. That too is part of the North's difference - they're so big and so safe, they generally don't bother. They'd much rather strengthen their relationships with their bannermen and marry culturally similar people than make alliance through marriage with some other great House worlds away. This would of course make it an honor to be married to a Stark, in a way, but their aloofness and relative lack of wealth would also mean it's not quite seen as such a high honor as we might think. The south values money and power and 'civilization' above everything. The Starks' power is great but isolated and doesn't travel well, they have little money relatively, and an older, somewhat simpler (and far saner) form of civilization.

[juanml82]

edited to add

analeigh's post also touches on something I was going to mention, which is that the Starks and all Northerners are much more interested in marrying within their own lands than in fostering alliances with other kingdoms. That too is part of the North's difference - they're so big and so safe, they generally don't bother. They'd much rather strengthen their relationships with their bannermen and marry culturally similar people than make alliance through marriage with some other great House worlds away. This would of course make it an honor to be married to a Stark, in a way, but their aloofness and relative lack of wealth would also mean it's not quite seen as such a high honor as we might think. The south values money and power and 'civilization' above everything. The Starks' power is great but isolated and doesn't travel well, they have little money relatively, and an older, somewhat simpler (and far saner) form of civilization.

Well, all major houses tend to marry within their own banners. If you check the Reach, the important Houses are all intermarried. The Dornish and the Ironborn also marry between them. If anything, Rickard Stark marriage arrangements are the ones outside the norm.

[Lee-Sensei]

What seems to get overlooked here is that the North is a vastly different culture - it really is like a different kingdom from the South. They worship different gods, keep different customs, have different values. The Starks are THE greatest House in the history of Westeros, all-time, and in more recent times are second only to the Targs. But they aren't rich by southern standards, they live in a cold frozen hell, they have strange, 'uncouth' customs that can seem backwards or barbaric to 'refined' southerners, etc.

I know the Sansa fangirls will be up in arms at this, but if you want to see the difference between North and South, compare the average Northerner we meet with Sansa, who basically disdains her own cultural identity and willfully becomes a Southron. They are worlds apart. And it's clear which is actually better, incidentally.

I always thought House Lannister was the second greatest.

Anways, Starks are considered good matches in the south.

[David Selig]

What seems to get overlooked here is that the North is a vastly different culture - it really is like a different kingdom from the South. They worship different gods, keep different customs, have different values.

No, they don't. Their customs and values are very similar. As for religion, very few people in Westeros, either North or South, are particularly religious and it doesn't have much influence on daily life (especially compared to Christianity in medieval Europe, which deeply influenced all areas of life).

The Northern Houses marrying Southerners isn't that actually. Just in recent years Robb, Ned, Roose, Jorah all did it. Sansa and Arya were engaged to Southerners, Sansa married Tyrion (unusual circumstances, but still...), Lyanna was engaged to Robert, etc.

[MyaStoned]

No, they don't. Their customs and values are very similar. As for religion, very few people in Westeros, either North or South, are particularly religious and it doesn't have much influence on daily life (especially compared to Christianity in medieval Europe, which deeply influenced all areas of life).

Textual support for any of that?

[MyaStoned]

I always thought House Lannister was the second greatest.

Anways, Starks are considered good matches in the south.

Lannisters are right up there, but it's hard to give the nod to a House that never had a king. Starks were bigger than they were before the Targs conquered, then afterwards the Targs were bigger. Splitting hairs tho.

[gwf]

House Lannister has had a ton of kings.

They used to be kings before the conquest.

[liknar]

No, they don't. Their customs and values are very similar. As for religion, very few people in Westeros, either North or South, are particularly religious and it doesn't have much influence on daily life (especially compared to Christianity in medieval Europe, which deeply influenced all areas of life).

The lack of strong religion appears to be a recent thing. Meagor the cruel fought wars to make religion weak. I get the impression that the religions clash semi frequently in the past.

[MyaStoned]

House Lannister has had a ton of kings.

They used to be kings before the conquest.

Kings of what? Of the Rock.

[MyaStoned]

The lack of strong religion appears to be a recent thing. Meagor the cruel fought wars to make religion weak. I get the impression that the religions clash semi frequently in the past.

Besides that, religion seems important in the North even at the time of the story.

[Lee-Sensei]

Lannisters are right up there, but it's hard to give the nod to a House that never had a king. Starks were bigger than they were before the Targs conquered, then afterwards the Targs were bigger. Splitting hairs tho.

The Lannisters, Arryns and Starks have all had Kings for thousands of years. Throw House Baratheon in there too if we're counting their Durrendon ancestors.

[Mladen]

I know the Sansa fangirls will be up in arms at this, but if you want to see the difference between North and South, compare the average Northerner we meet with Sansa, who basically disdains her own cultural identity and willfully becomes a Southron. They are worlds apart. And it's clear which is actually better, incidentally.

Nonsense disproved by text numerous of time...

Plus, MyaStoned, a rose by any other name would smell as sweet (or foul)...

Kings of what? Of the Rock.

Yes, they were KIngs of the Rock... And given that the rock is one of the wealthiest are in Westeros and has a lot of gold mines, that the Lannisters come from First Men and that they ruled for quite some time, I found them being one of the greatest Westerosi Houses.

No, they don't. Their customs and values are very similar. As for religion, very few people in Westeros, either North or South, are particularly religious and it doesn't have much influence on daily life (especially compared to Christianity in medieval Europe, which deeply influenced all areas of life).

The Northern Houses marrying Southerners isn't that actually. Just in recent years Robb, Ned, Roose, Jorah all did it. Sansa and Arya were engaged to Southerners, Sansa married Tyrion (unusual circumstances, but still...), Lyanna was engaged to Robert, etc.

And not just that... Ran heavily insinuated that Ned/Cat wasn't the first North/South marriage for the Starks...

I always thought House Lannister was the second greatest.

Anways, Starks are considered good matches in the south.

These nonsenses about THE greatest House in Westeros aren't corroborated with textual evidence. Yes, Starks rule the biggest Kingdom, but far from being the richest. At least four other Kingdoms are richer and thus more important (Vale, Riverlands, Westerlands, Reach). Even if we talk about Starks being the oldest House, it still isn't proven given that there are numerous Houses who actually trace back to Age of Heroes.

[Lee-Sensei]

Kings of what? Of the Rock.

The Lannisters were Kings of the Rock. Just like the Starks were Kings of Winter, the Arryns were Kings of the Mountain and Vale, and the Durrendons were the Storm Kings.

[David Selig]

Textual support for any of that?

We've had plenty of Northern and Southern PoVs to compare and there's really no significant difference in mentality or culture. Ned and Davos for example, two persons with similar temperament, think in a very similar way and the difference are mostly due to class.

What are the big cultural differences which you see? The language is the same, the structure of society is the same, the ruling class is the same.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

We've had plenty of Northern and Southern PoVs to compare and there's really no significant difference in mentality or culture. Ned and Davos for example, two persons with similar temperament, think in a very similar way and the difference are mostly due to class.

What are the big cultural differences which you see? The language is the same, the structure of society is the same, the ruling class is the same.

The south has institutions based on the faith of the seven. The influence of that church on King's Landing politics is huge for esample. They currently have the queen on trial. The whole system of knighting is a rank that does not exist up North. Maesters of the south seem to want to kill 'magic' and thus the essence of Northern religion. Down south the justice is a fight to the death, we don't see this up North. Theon is going to be executed in front of the heart tree.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

well we know that Starks wed Royces in the not too distant past, and the Tully stark match seemed to make Hoster very happy. I don't doubt that had Lyanna not already been bagsy'd by Robert that Tywin would have been considering approaching Rickard regarding a match with Jamie. He was proposing Lysa, but I think he'd have given Jamie the choice of the two if she were not already promised. The Starks are a long lived noble house and I don't think for a minute other houses would look down on them as potential spouses. No doubt the North weds its self frequently in regards to the heir, but I think daughters going south will have happened a lot. Had Brandon lived I think Ned might have actually ended up married to say Barbrey to shore up northern alliances as well as create new southern ones via Brandon & Cat's marriage. I think Benjen was always for the watch though. Poor sod.