Assessment of Ice and Fire V - Blood Sacrifice (AWOIAF spoilers)

[Maxwell Stark]

I really feel like I'm missing something can someone give me text evidence of Bran/BR trying to get Theon to the Weirwood I dont remember anything like that

[Suzanna Stormborn]

I really feel like I'm missing something can someone give me text evidence of Bran/BR trying to get Theon to the Weirwood I dont remember anything like that

Dude it's from the new Theon Chapter from WoW.

http://www.ign.com/b...nter.207815997/

very telling at the end :)

BTW your handle is HI-LA-RIOUS!!!

[Maxwell Stark]

Ravens saying his name... I actually find it more believable that they "know his name"

[The Real Summer Islander]

I really feel like I'm missing something can someone give me text evidence of Bran/BR trying to get Theon to the Weirwood I dont remember anything like that

Asha tells stannis to give theon to Ned starks gods.. and says give him to the tree.. and all the ravens around go beserk saying tree! tree.

[bemused]

I don't think there's been evidence , so far, that the CoTF practiced blood sacrifice. I think it's more likely that the first men and /or the Andals ( or both )brought the idea with them.

If the CoTF believe they will become one with the gods at death , I don't see the normal reasons for blood sacrifice ( to propitiate , or appease the gods in some way ) as being something the gods would require , desire or be particularly pleased by. The end result would be nothing out of the ordinary. And a race with such a slow rate of reproduction would probably not be much drawn to this practice. I certainly can't see it as their way to punish wrongdoers , since to them it might seem something of a reward.

The bones in the cave seem to me more the result of hundreds or thousands of years of reverent interment , close to the roots of the sacred trees , hence the niches holding skulls..perhaps a mark of special honour. The skulls of men and animals may have been the remains of skinchangers and their bonded animals.

That doesn't mean the CoTF might not have been tempted to try blood magic at some point ( the Hammer ), but that wouldn't necessarily be a purely religious act. Magic exists separate from religion , some religions make use of it , but it doesn't spring from a religious source. ( Or if it does , the gods being all of Nature, the gods were not entirely co-operative were they ? So I'd think the CoTF would rethink that particular approach afterward.)

It's as yet unclear whether lives were sacrificed in some rite in the raising of the wall ,or if the blood Ygritte tells Jon the wall is built of refers to lives that were lost in the building of it through hard labour , accidents, etc. ...or even if she just refers to the wildling lives that have been lost because of it ( in climbing it , or because it forces them to lead a harder, more perilous existence ).

I don't know what to make of the power in King's blood yet , because we already have quirky genetics ( the seed is strong ) and we have magic in the world ,so it's hard to know where or how or if the two intersect. The ability to skinchange is not all that rare in the wildling population ( first men ?), but with the Starks ,it appears they need to come in contact with a direwolf , in particular ,for that ability to awaken. We see with Bran and Arya that they then can skinchange with other animals, but I'll bet that would not have been the case if they'd never had their wolves...so I don't know... at least, we've heard no tales of Starks with their special dogs , cats , goats ...or whatever... Anyway , if direwolves haven't been seen south of the wall in 200 years or more , I think that would in itself explain why the ability's been dormant. I do think the Starks are bound up in some very old magic, though, dating from the raising of the Wall and WF.

I can't wrap my head around all of this tonight , but I definitely think it's jumping the gun to assume that Bran and Bloodraven want Theon to be taken to the tree to be sacrificed. I think it's to provide a more direct line of communication. Theon has shown signs of being a good receiver for Bran.( and Theon wants to communicate with the "old gods" ) Perhaps Bran/BR have been limited in their ability to communicate because they haven't had a transmitter with the ability to form sentences.

[David C. Hunter]

I don't think there's been evidence , so far, that the CoTF practiced blood sacrifice. I think it's more likely that the first men and /or the Andals ( or both )brought the idea with them.

If the CoTF believe they will become one with the gods at death , I don't see the normal reasons for blood sacrifice ( to propitiate , or appease the gods in some way ) as being something the gods would require , desire or be particularly pleased by. The end result would be nothing out of the ordinary. And a race with such a slow rate of reproduction would probably not be much drawn to this practice. I certainly can't see it as their way to punish wrongdoers , since to them it might seem something of a reward.

The bones in the cave seem to me more the result of hundreds or thousands of years of reverent interment , close to the roots of the sacred trees , hence the niches holding skulls..perhaps a mark of special honour. The skulls of men and animals may have been the remains of skinchangers and their bonded animals.

That doesn't mean the CoTF might not have been tempted to try blood magic at some point ( the Hammer ), but that wouldn't necessarily be a purely religious act. Magic exists separate from religion , some religions make use of it , but it doesn't spring from a religious source. ( Or if it does , the gods being all of Nature, the gods were not entirely co-operative were they ? So I'd think the CoTF would rethink that particular approach afterward.)

It's as yet unclear whether lives were sacrificed in some rite in the raising of the wall ,or if the blood Ygritte tells Jon the wall is built of refers to lives that were lost in the building of it through hard labour , accidents, etc. ...or even if she just refers to the wildling lives that have been lost because of it ( in climbing it , or because it forces them to lead a harder, more perilous existence ).

I don't know what to make of the power in King's blood yet , because we already have quirky genetics ( the seed is strong ) and we have magic in the world ,so it's hard to know where or how or if the two intersect. The ability to skinchange is not all that rare in the wildling population ( first men ?), but with the Starks ,it appears they need to come in contact with a direwolf , in particular ,for that ability to awaken. We see with Bran and Arya that they then can skinchange with other animals, but I'll bet that would not have been the case if they'd never had their wolves...so I don't know... at least, we've heard no tales of Starks with their special dogs , cats , goats ...or whatever... Anyway , if direwolves haven't been seen south of the wall in 200 years or more , I think that would in itself explain why the ability's been dormant. I do think the Starks are bound up in some very old magic, though, dating from the raising of the Wall and WF.

I can't wrap my head around all of this tonight , but I definitely think it's jumping the gun to assume that Bran and Bloodraven want Theon to be taken to the tree to be sacrificed. I think it's to provide a more direct line of communication. Theon has shown signs of being a good receiver for Bran.( and Theon wants to communicate with the "old gods" ) Perhaps Bran/BR have been limited in their ability to communicate because they haven't had a transmitter with the ability to form sentences.

I see what you are saying, good points.

To me though....there is no evidence of the Andals ever doing Blood Sacrifices on any kind as Im sure they would deem it barbaric, but the Northerners were doing it up until about 500 years ago. They were taught of the Old Gods from the Children, they were taught about Greenseeing/Skin changing from the Children. I think they also learned about blood sacrifice from them as well. IT would seem that all magic, no matter what is founded in Blood sacrifice. We see this through the Bloodlines of the Valyrians and Starks(And the Crannogs). The Children had to have done it first.

To everyone else I want to say thanks for the feedback, but like I said I am literally taking scraps of text and evidence and adding my theories to them based on the process of elimination. So I have many assumptions, lol

[Maxwell Stark]

I'm just wondering is there any definite proof that the Starks do blood sacrifice on the innocent. When someone commits a crime punishable by death might as well give them to the gods

But as far as I know they don't sacrifice the innocent

[Veltigar]

I don't know what to make of the power in King's blood yet , because we already have quirky genetics ( the seed is strong ) and we have magic in the world ,so it's hard to know where or how or if the two intersect. The ability to skinchange is not all that rare in the wildling population ( first men ?), but with the Starks ,it appears they need to come in contact with a direwolf , in particular ,for that ability to awaken. We see with Bran and Arya that they then can skinchange with other animals, but I'll bet that would not have been the case if they'd never had their wolves...so I don't know... at least, we've heard no tales of Starks with their special dogs , cats , goats ...or whatever... Anyway , if direwolves haven't been seen south of the wall in 200 years or more , I think that would in itself explain why the ability's been dormant. I do think the Starks are bound up in some very old magic, though, dating from the raising of the Wall and WF.

I think the fact that the Wildlings have more wargs has more to with the fact that they live on the right side of the Wall (The Wall seems to work like some sort of giant magic damper, drawing the magic to its own structure to repell the othersà and by the fact that Skinchanging is openly accepted and they have people educating other wargs about their capacities (thus lesser wargs who wouldn't be wargs if they lived on the wrong side of the Wall, are wargs in the far north). The direwolves were a gift of the Old Gods to the Starks, andthey rekindled the long dormant power.

[Adam Carmack]

I believe the power in royal blood (all of Robert's bastards) is what Jon Arryn was referring to by his parting grace "the seed is strong"

[Stark@heart]

"The Seed is Strong" was the big clue to Joffery, Tommen & Myrcella being Lannisters. They have the blond hair and green eyes of their parents.

All Baratheon's have black hair. No matter who they married, even Targs, the Black hair / traits won out. That was the importance of the book Jon Arryn and Ned read and finding Robert's bastards to prove the theory. They were all black haired and blue eyed.

As for Varys and his manhood. Since Mel can sex up people for their spearm and make shadowbabies, then it follows and makes sense that you could take the instruments that produce and deliver " the seed" and burn them to accomplish something.?? Vary's being used for this purpose is also the big clue to him being a "secret" Targ or Blackfyre.

I pretty sure we're about to find out what a King's blood sacrifice will do for Old God/ Weirwood magic with Theon and it's gonna be good but what I'm waiting for is to see what happens when Mel burns Craster's son thinking he's Mance's son. That's gonna be epic!

It's all about the Wall now. Those still playing the Game of Thrones in Westeros are about to learn the hard way who's really playing for keeps.

[aryagonnakill]

"The Seed is Strong" was the big clue to Joffery, Tommen & Myrcella being Lannisters. They have the blond hair and green eyes of their parents.

All Baratheon's have black hair. No matter who they married, even Targs, the Black hair / traits won out. That was the importance of the book Jon Arryn and Ned read and finding Robert's bastards to prove the theory. They were all black haired and blue eyed.

As for Varys and his manhood. Since Mel can sex up people for their spearm and make shadowbabies, then it follows and makes sense that you could take the instruments that produce and deliver " the seed" and burn them to accomplish something.?? Vary's being used for this purpose is also the big clue to him being a "secret" Targ or Blackfyre.

I pretty sure we're about to find out what a King's blood sacrifice will do for Old God/ Weirwood magic with Theon and it's gonna be good but what I'm waiting for is to see what happens when Mel burns Craster's son thinking he's Mance's son. That's gonna be epic!

It's all about the Wall now. Those still playing the Game of Thrones in Westeros are about to learn the hard way who's really playing for keeps.

Mel knows, I don't have my books to quote but its from her POV or Jons, she knows. But I have considered the possibility that Crasters son will qualify as having kings blood because it was rumored that he was Mances father, a king.

[cup_of_tea]

The power of Kings blood. It's crap, isn't it? Such a rubbish idea. GRRM is great at so much, but his depiction of religions is poor in the extreme.

[Rooseman]

I've read all of your five assessment threads and I love them. I hope you'll make another one some time. Even if I don't agree with everything, they're always very interesting to read and you have a talent for detailed analysis while not losing sight of the bigger picture.

It's sad that these threads only get like 1-3 pages of discussion, while "Did Tywin want to make Tyrion rape Joffrey?" stays on the front page until it's closed by a mod...

[KingHodorTargaryen]

I like this because magic has always been the underlying theme, and has been becoming more and more present.

[Maestor Tarly]

The power of Kings blood. It's crap, isn't it? Such a rubbish idea. GRRM is great at so much, but his depiction of religions is poor in the extreme.

Well Mel used "kings blood" to curse, Robb Stark, Joffery 'Baratheon', and Balon Greyjoy... and we know how that turned out... I think the religious aspects of the story are supposed to be mysterious at this point so perhaps his depiction of religion is exactly how he wants it to be

[Bloodraven's Lost Eye]

The power of Kings blood. It's crap, isn't it? Such a rubbish idea. GRRM is great at so much, but his depiction of religions is poor in the extreme.

You obviously don't get his take on religion in Westeros then.

@OP very interesting, don't agree with everything, but definitely in the broad strokes.

[Gizzelle]

I never stopped being surprised by how many people read these books and attribute power to things like the Old Gods, R'hllor and King's Blood when I just didn't get that.

I guess real world views must shape interpretation a great deal.

[lmgross25]

I don't think there's been evidence , so far, that the CoTF practiced blood sacrifice. I think it's more likely that the first men and /or the Andals ( or both )brought the idea with them.

If the CoTF believe they will become one with the gods at death , I don't see the normal reasons for blood sacrifice ( to propitiate , or appease the gods in some way ) as being something the gods would require , desire or be particularly pleased by. The end result would be nothing out of the ordinary. And a race with such a slow rate of reproduction would probably not be much drawn to this practice. I certainly can't see it as their way to punish wrongdoers , since to them it might seem something of a reward.

The bones in the cave seem to me more the result of hundreds or thousands of years of reverent interment , close to the roots of the sacred trees , hence the niches holding skulls..perhaps a mark of special honour. The skulls of men and animals may have been the remains of skinchangers and their bonded animals.

That doesn't mean the CoTF might not have been tempted to try blood magic at some point ( the Hammer ), but that wouldn't necessarily be a purely religious act. Magic exists separate from religion , some religions make use of it , but it doesn't spring from a religious source. ( Or if it does , the gods being all of Nature, the gods were not entirely co-operative were they ? So I'd think the CoTF would rethink that particular approach afterward.)

It's as yet unclear whether lives were sacrificed in some rite in the raising of the wall ,or if the blood Ygritte tells Jon the wall is built of refers to lives that were lost in the building of it through hard labour , accidents, etc. ...or even if she just refers to the wildling lives that have been lost because of it ( in climbing it , or because it forces them to lead a harder, more perilous existence ).

I don't know what to make of the power in King's blood yet , because we already have quirky genetics ( the seed is strong ) and we have magic in the world ,so it's hard to know where or how or if the two intersect. The ability to skinchange is not all that rare in the wildling population ( first men ?), but with the Starks ,it appears they need to come in contact with a direwolf , in particular ,for that ability to awaken. We see with Bran and Arya that they then can skinchange with other animals, but I'll bet that would not have been the case if they'd never had their wolves...so I don't know... at least, we've heard no tales of Starks with their special dogs , cats , goats ...or whatever... Anyway , if direwolves haven't been seen south of the wall in 200 years or more , I think that would in itself explain why the ability's been dormant. I do think the Starks are bound up in some very old magic, though, dating from the raising of the Wall and WF.

I can't wrap my head around all of this tonight , but I definitely think it's jumping the gun to assume that Bran and Bloodraven want Theon to be taken to the tree to be sacrificed. I think it's to provide a more direct line of communication. Theon has shown signs of being a good receiver for Bran.( and Theon wants to communicate with the "old gods" ) Perhaps Bran/BR have been limited in their ability to communicate because they haven't had a transmitter with the ability to form sentences. Brianne

for someone that is a council member you don't do your reading very much do you M'lord. It clearly states that the COFT practiced dark magic and blood sacrifices. That's how they made the stepstones and it was through them flooding the neck that made the first men reconsider and finally sign the pact on the god's eye. I do Like some of your thoughts and they share some of my own views. However I agree bran and BR trying to get Theon to the tree will fail. Think about this the forging of light bringer. AA first tempered the blade in water it shattered. What if Stannis tries to excute Theon and can't the blade shatters. Theon is iron born at birth they are baptisted in salt water, so in theory he's water. Read my theory Jon/Ghost a different theory it gives further details off what i'm getting at. Anyways then Light bringer was tempered with a captured lion. I can think of a lion that I think is on it's way to the wall right now. Jamie along with Gendry, Ned Dayne, Brianne of Tarth (remember dany's vision in the temple of the undying) She sees a blue flower blooming from the wall, the tarth arms are blue quartered with flowers.Plus she's got a blood debt to pay stannis with Renly's blade. I know she lost it at harrenhall, but alot of the BWB left harrenhall and joined Lady stoneheart. She's going to get that blade back and Jamie is going to take possession of OathKeeper, Jon's going to give him his hand back. Just a thought anyway with Gendry on the wall he will figure out that Mel's got to die. He's changed faith's remember but the red star in the north the thief is really the red wander sacred to the smith. This will be a sign that's forsaking his love of the red god and going back to his roots. He will kill Mel as a false prophet. The reforging of Lightbringer and it ties in with this theory.

okay so this came to me while i was taking out the trash. Remember the story about how Castely Rock and Winterfell got together to destroy Dagmer. Lion, IronBorn and Wolves if the story about the forging is about a first man that stopped the others he had people with is party. The ironborn are related to the the first men and the lannisters are related to the first men as well. Lann the clever is rumored to be born from a first man bloodline. Bran the builder and the baratheons are bound together through blood magic that was set into the stones of storms end. Now you have the same players involved in forging lightbringer in the north. Stannis and Gendry Baratheon blood, Bran and Jon stark blood, Theon and Jamie with the blood of the water and the lion.Remember the Grey king he had control over the very sea itself. Plus i think that the blood of theon and blood raven's spirit both with kings blood are what will be required for jon to be AA reborn. Born from Smoke and Salt. Blood Raven is a blackFyre with the blood of kings in his vein who is sticking around for the realms of men which is what Jon as a member of the nights watch with his vows burned into his veins is the Guardian of the realms of men. I don't like the idea of Mel having anything to do with Jon's rebirth. She's evil. I do agree that the COFT are the most dangerous people in westeros. If jon can learn to control their magic he wont need a dragon. I think before the end of the series Jon, Bran, Arya, Rickon and the COFT are going to complete what the COFT started many years ago by separating the north and surrounding territories from the south. That's another story and has many parts to it that i can't share here. I might have to make a thread to that account.

Someone asked who else on the wall has kingsblood. There is Axel Florent decentent from Garth Greenhands. The same with Shireen and her mother. There's the wildling claiming kin to Raymund Red beard and names himself as such along with his three red haired daughters. There's pypar who I think is a bastard florent who's doesn't know it. Those ears are a trademark florent trait. Satin who's really Lewyn Martell's bastard from his paramor from kingslanding. Adrinne Martell tells her kingsguard knight that Lewyn had a parmor the boy would have been of the right age to be his son. He was raise in Oldstown where another kingsguard family lived the Hightowers. There's where Satin was found he was in the Royce dungeon's which is close to Gullstown where Oswell Kettleblack lives in the service of Littlefinger who i believe to really be Oswell Whent. They sent Satin to the wall to keep an eye on Jon and gain his trust. He's quick with a crossbow,fearless with the sword, and he can read and write after a fashion. THose are jon's words to Marsh and the first builder. The Martells were kings before the conquest so there's more kingsblood. Stannis sent Asha and Jeyne Poole back to the Wall with the banker, Asha is a princess.

Someone brought up something about the bolton's wearing the skins of starks. About how they were tying to understand the skinchanging. What if it's more than that? What if their wearing the skins as a trick. Maybe trying to get pasts some magically wards at Winterfell. Maybe that's why there has to always be a stark at winterfell. Winterfell was sacked twice with Bran and Rickon being at winterfell what if the magical wards don't reconize them as Starks. The Tullys' never worshipped the northern gods they have always been bounded to the Seven. I don't think that Bran is going to become the next lord of winterfell his destiny lies in the south at the God's eye as a greenseers. Rickon is going to end up the lord of Riverrun I can't see the river lords ever bending the knee to a half Frey lord of riverrun. Ayra is going to end up in the twins and Sansa is going to stay in the Vale. Yet if the COFT and company can seperate the North from the South all of those lands will end up in Stark hands. THeon is going to become lord of Casterly Rock, with Asha ruling in the iron islands. when theon went home he wanted sack the rock. That was his plan it was his father that pointed out that the rock had never been sacked.

[aryagonnakill]

for someone that is a council member you don't do your reading very much do you M'lord. It clearly states that the COFT practiced dark magic and blood sacrifices. That's how they made the stepstones and it was through them flooding the neck that made the first men reconsider and finally sign the pact on the god's eye. I do Like some of your thoughts and they share some of my own views. However I agree bran and BR trying to get Theon to the tree will fail. Think about this the forging of light bringer. AA first tempered the blade in water it shattered. What if Stannis tries to excute Theon and can't the blade shatters. Theon is iron born at birth they are baptisted in salt water, so in theory he's water. Read my theory Jon/Ghost a different theory it gives further details off what i'm getting at. Anyways then Light bringer was tempered with a captured lion. I can think of a lion that I think is on it's way to the wall right now. Jamie along with Gendry, Ned Dayne, Brianne of Tarth (remember dany's vision in the temple of the undying) She sees a blue flower blooming from the wall, the tarth arms are blue quartered with flowers.Plus she's got a blood debt to pay stannis with Renly's blade. I know she lost it at harrenhall, but alot of the BWB left harrenhall and joined Lady stoneheart. She's going to get that blade back and Jamie is going to take possession of OathKeeper, Jon's going to give him his hand back. Just a thought anyway with Gendry on the wall he will figure out that Mel's got to die. He's changed faith's remember but the red star in the north the thief is really the red wander sacred to the smith. This will be a sign that's forsaking his love of the red god and going back to his roots. He will kill Mel as a false prophet. The reforging of Lightbringer and it ties in with this theory. I have more but not right now

I'd say he reads just fine, seeing as how you are wrong and it is not stated in the books that the cotf practice blood magic. If you read that somewhere it was in a theory, not the books. It is entirely possible that is how they flooded the neck and broke the arm connecting Westeros and Essos, but we are not told this.

[Brother Seamus]

I see what you are saying, good points.

To me though....there is no evidence of the Andals ever doing Blood Sacrifices on any kind as Im sure they would deem it barbaric, but the Northerners were doing it up until about 500 years ago. They were taught of the Old Gods from the Children, they were taught about Greenseeing/Skin changing from the Children. I think they also learned about blood sacrifice from them as well. IT would seem that all magic, no matter what is founded in Blood sacrifice. We see this through the Bloodlines of the Valyrians and Starks(And the Crannogs). The Children had to have done it first.

To everyone else I want to say thanks for the feedback, but like I said I am literally taking scraps of text and evidence and adding my theories to them based on the process of elimination. So I have many assumptions, lol

I didn't remember that there was blood sacrifice in the north until 500 years ago; i.e. 200 years before the invasion.

my impression was that the hints that the Starks and the north engage din human sacrifice were somewhat vague, and that in any event it was in the deep past. I'd love for someone to marshal the textual evidence either way on this.

Nevertheless, I've been saying recently that I also think human sacrifice/blood magic is the key to the whole story, or at least the supernatural /magical elements, including:

1.why are the Others coming now?

2.what is the magic in the wall and how did it get there?

3.what is the Starks' role in keeping the Others out, and the wall up?

4. what is the COTF's role vis a vis the Others?

5. why are the seasons so f'ed up?

6. what's the connection between eastern magic (old Valyria, Asshai) and the magic in the wall, and the Others?

My thought was that in the deep past some kind of pact or vow was made that gave the Stark's some role in defending "the realms of men" and that human sacrifice played some part in it, and that somehow it ties into the Last Hero/Azor Ahai/PtwP legends.

I think all of this has been well below the surface so far and GRRM has by design barely given us enough info to coherently form the questions, much less figure out the answers. I think there are some real fundamental facts bearing on magic/supernatural/religion/gods we haven't even gotten hints of yet.