R+L=J v.44

[The guy from the Vale]

Brienne was still a child during the Tourney at Harrenhal. Yes, she's refering to a later event - but one when Ashara was already dead.

I'm also not sure why she's referring to Harrenhal there when the tourney where she was mocked was most likely the one at Bitterbridge. I suppose that might be an editing oversight.

[Sasha Steelsong]

Okay, how about this from Brienne in Feast for Crows:

I'm pretty sure that refers to a time after the false spring tournament.

Congrats you totally missed the point!!!

Yes there are times that Harranhal was mentioned however when it comes to Barristan's point of view and where and when Ashara was dishonored it is entirely in the context of Tourney at Harranhal. Look at post #61 in this thread for the actual text. The entire thought process that Barristan goes through deals with the Tourney and what happened there. Thus Barristan's use of "at Harranhal" was in reference to the Tourney not some other time that maybe Ashara and Ned were there that there is aboslutely no evidence actually happened. Context is key and your theory of Ned and Ashara meeting up in the middle of the war at Harranhal requires that you take Barristan's thoughts out of context to create this ficticious second meeting.

Additionally Brieanne thinking of what happened to her at Harranhal does not apply, as what matters would when people reference Ashara and Harranhal and she is only mentioned in connection with Harranhal when it comes to the tournament.

[Sasha Steelsong]

I'm also not sure why she's referring to Harrenhal there when the tourney where she was mocked was most likely the one at Bitterbridge. I suppose that might be an editing oversight.

Ok so I wasn't the only one confused. My understanding what that there never was a time when Brieanne was at Harranhal and still dealing with Sir Hyle, I also thought that whole humiliation happened at Bitterbidge.

[Jon Icefyre]

Congrats you totally missed the point!!!

Yes there are times that Harranhal was mentioned however when it comes to Barristan's point of view and where and when Ashara was dishonored it is entirely in the context of Tourney at Harranhal. Look at post #61 in this thread for the actual text. The entire thought process that Barristan goes through deals with the Tourney and what happened there. Thus Barristan's use of "at Harranhal" was in reference to the Tourney not some other time that maybe Ashara and Ned were there that there is aboslutely no evidence actually happened. Context is key and your theory of Ned and Ashara meeting up in the middle of the war at Harranhal requires that you take Barristan's thoughts out of context to create this ficticious second meeting.

Additionally Brieanne thinking of what happened to her at Harranhal does not apply, as what matters would when people reference Ashara and Harranhal and she is only mentioned in connection with Harranhal when it comes to the tournament.

Hahaha :agree:

[FittleLinger]

No?

Imagine all the possiblities (this kind of sounds like a slogan for a company making vacuum cleaners, but):

The realm backs up supporting Jon.

The realm finds out but refutes Jon.

The realm is divided because Jon is both King of the North by Robb's will and Targaryen king per birth.

The North refutes Jon because of the Targ thing despite Robb's will.

What about Bran?

What about Rickon?

Jon finds out and decides to persue conciliator ambitions.

Jon finds out but ignores it because he has another destiny to fulfill.

The realm who believe in the Ghost of High Heart's prophecy (whose prophecies have been rock solid, she is like the opposite of Mel in the prophecy department) back up Jon in his fight for the greater good.

Jon really is the PTWP and needs to fight the Others and, say, some book says that, and Mel/Dany/Anyone recognizes it.

Jon does the deed without this being known and people back him up, recognizing the hero in him, and maybe even never know his true identity.

Jon maybe never knows his true identity, but nevertheless, it doesn't matter anymore.

The possibilities are countless, really.

And I just want to add Apple Martini's brilliant theory about the three heads of the dragon. Heads have been used instead of crowns before - and those heads belong to the same person - King of the North (Stark, through Robb), King of the Iron Throne (Targ), and LC of the Night's watch.

And that's not even touching the heretical theories about him being the new Night's king as per his Stark connection, and as per being, you know, dead right now.

All those are heavily R+L dependent.

[Ruby Chevrolet]

Congrats you totally missed the point!!!

Yes there are times that Harranhal was mentioned however when it comes to Barristan's point of view and where and when Ashara was dishonored it is entirely in the context of Tourney at Harranhal. Look at post #61 in this thread for the actual text. The entire thought process that Barristan goes through deals with the Tourney and what happened there. Thus Barristan's use of "at Harranhal" was in reference to the Tourney not some other time that maybe Ashara and Ned were there that there is aboslutely no evidence actually happened. Context is key and your theory of Ned and Ashara meeting up in the middle of the war at Harranhal requires that you take Barristan's thoughts out of context to create this ficticious second meeting.

Additionally Brieanne thinking of what happened to her at Harranhal does not apply, as what matters would when people reference Ashara and Harranhal and she is only mentioned in connection with Harranhal when it comes to the tournament.

Not at all. The specific sentence refers to things that happened years after the Harrenhal tournament:

But Ashara's daughter had been stillborn, and his fair lady had thrown herself from a tower soon after, mad with grief for the child she had lost, and perhaps for the man who had dishonored her at Harrenhal.

Three things are mentioned in this sentence: a stillbirth, a suicide and dishonor. I trust you agree the first two happened long after the tournament. All I am saying is that the third did, too.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Three things are mentioned in this sentence: a stillbirth, a suicide and dishonor. I trust you agree the first two happened long after the tournament. All I am saying is that the third did, too.

Given how the vast majority of Barristan's thoughts on Ashara center on the Harrenhal tourney, to read "at Harrenhal" as anything other than shorthand for the "Harrenhal tourney" is to be, sorry, deliberately obtuse. And unless I missed something, other than a vague "Well it could've happened ..." you haven't exactly made the case for Ned and Ashara to both be at Harrenhal at any time apart from the tournament.

[MtnLion]

If Ashara was raped, it was either Aerys, or maybe even drunken Robert.

BUT, what I tend to think is really going on here, is again, more Martinisms and double entendre's, as well as self-delusion and wishful thinking regarding Selmys own heart.

Since Selmy idealizes Ashara, he choose's to believe Ashara was dishonored, or seduced rather than believe Ashara may have been in a very willing tryst with someone, (Brandon Stark), whom she likely was in love with, because he views her as innocent.

I think the problem with the Aerys thing, is that I actually do think Selmy would know because he's Kingsguard and no one in the Royal Family notices them, so no need to hide anything from them. He also has a "scewed" view of what the Kings "rights" are, as well as KG honor in regards to his relationship with the King, so I think he would bury his own outrage as opposed to if it was any other man.

And finally, if it was Aerys that raped Ashara, I don't think turning to "Stark" would help her, and she would most definitely drink her tea.

Not sure that Barristan's thought of "looking to" are before Ned returns Dawn to House Dayne. It would be legitimate for Barristan to think that Ashara asked something of Ned when he was there, lacking any other information, and considering his visit is before Ashara's bleakest moods and apparent suicide.

As far as Elia and Ashara switching babies, I got the feel she was sent pretty quickly from Court, before it became evident, so she wouldn't be around for Elia giving birth, but I guess anything is possible. :dunno:

Well, Harrenhal was in the year of the false spring, and the Prince's Pass is in the mountains. Would the pass be impassable during the winter? She would have returned to King's Landing with Elia after the tourney, and a month or more passes before she shows pregnant. I am not sure that Tansy Tea is preferrable to delivering the baby, since it was surreptitiously administered to Lysa, the only time that we know of its use. She was of Dorne, so having the child may be less of a burden than it would be of a normal Westerosi.

The foreboding that Barristan expresses about Aerys deciding to attend could be the beginning of his redactions in his memories, if he knew about Aerys raping Ashara. Another idea could be that Barristan has no idea who dishonored Ashara (I dislike hanging it on a Stark, any of them for a reason), but may have heard directly from her or her brother than she had been. We have all seven Kingsguard at the tourney, and Jaime leaves after being inducted. So, whoever was with the king if he raped Ashara, could still be holding his peace. But, we know that Aerys declared that the Knight of the Laughing Tree was no friend of his and sent Rhaegar after him. We know that Rhaegar never goes anywhere without a Kingsguard, except when he goes to Summerhall. Suppose it is Barristan that goes with Rhaegar in search of the Knight of the Laughing Tree, he then would know a secret about Rhaegar and Lyanna. He does mention that Rhaegar loved Lyanna. He would know why Rhaegar was driven to win the tourney, and why he presented the crown to Lyanna.

There are two possible reasons.

[Sasha Steelsong]

Not at all. The specific sentence refers to things that happened years after the Harrenhal tournament:

Three things are mentioned in this sentence: a stillbirth, a suicide and dishonor. I trust you agree the first two happened long after the tournament. All I am saying is that the third did, too.

And you would be reading the whole paragraph and scene wrong. I'm honestly done discussing this with you, because no matter how many times the context of the whole scene (not just the sentence but the whole scene which is about the Tournament at Harranhal and the repercussions from it) has been explained to you, you just don't want it to be the case because it messes with an event you want to have happened but have no evidence for.

Barristan's thoughts do not indicate that there was a second time that Ned and Ashara were together at Harranhal and in fact do not even necessarily point to Ned at all, as all Barristan says is "Stark," not "Lord Eddard" or "Lord Rickard's second son" or anything that identifies the Stark involved. In fact it is not even clear that it was a Stark that dishonored her, because his recollection is phrased in such a way that Ashara turned to Stark, i.e. could have been dishonored by someone totally different and then turned to Stark (whichever of the three that it actually was) for comfort, and that result might have a different outcome if Barristan had proclaimed his feelings for her.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

And you would be reading the whole paragraph and scene wrong. I'm honestly done discussing this with you, because no matter how many times the context of the whole scene (not just the sentence but the whole scene which is about the Tournament at Harranhal and the repercussions from it) has been explained to you, you just don't want it to be the case because it messes with an event you want to have happened but have no evidence for.

Barristan's thoughts do not indicate that there was a second time that Ned and Ashara were together at Harranhal and in fact do not even necessarily point to Ned at all, as all Barristan says is "Stark," not "Lord Eddard" or "Lord Rickard's second son" or anything that identifies the Stark involved. In fact it is not even clear that it was a Stark that dishonored her, because his recollection is phrased in such a way that Ashara turned to Stark, i.e. could have been dishonored by someone totally different and then turned to Stark (whichever of the three that it actually was) for comfort, and that result might have a different outcome if Barristan had proclaimed his feelings for her.

Yeah, I think you make a huge point about the Stark and the one dishonoring her not necessarily being the same. It's something a lot of people use interchangeably on here and draw conclusions on, but if you read what Barristan thinks about it, he doesn't ever say they're the same person.

And the bolded part is basically the entire gist of this person's argument.

[Techelles]

...you just don't want it to be the case because it messes with an event you want to have happened but have no evidence for.

And the bolded part is basically the entire gist of this person's argument.

I've been seeing quite a bit of this on the forum lately, actually. Rather disheartening.

[FittleLinger]

Yeah, I think you make a huge point about the Stark and the one dishonoring her not necessarily being the same. It's something a lot of people use interchangeably on here and draw conclusions on, but if you read what Barristan thinks about it, he doesn't ever say they're the same person.

And the bolded part is basically the entire gist of this person's argument.

This is a huge point. Can someone please tell me which Barristan chapter this is exactly and relatively where are his Harrenhall memories?

[corbon]

ETA: We know that the tourney lasted ten days, to allow for all of the jousting challenges to be satisfied. The crown was awarded at the conclusion of festivities. So, if Barristan hopes to make an impression on Ashara at the conclusion (after he says she had been dishonored) that would influence her future choices and prevent her from committing suicide, we can project the "looked to" as nearer Ashara's suicide.

Possibly. But it doesn't have to be much later. The only thing we can infer timing wise there is that Ashara's choice of Stark to look to happened after Lyanna was named QoLaB, after (immediately?) the final joust.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

This is a huge point. Can someone please tell me which Barristan chapter this is exactly and relatively where are his Harrenhall memories?

I want to say it's in The Kingbreaker? He just thinks that if he had won the tournament, he would've crowned Ashara and Rhaegar wouldn't have crowned Lyanna and set off the whole mess, in his mind, and that Ashara might have known that he loved and would have "turned" to him instead of Stark. The man who "dishonored" her is never used interchangeably with the "Stark," nor is the specific Stark ever identified. On the contrary, you could feasibly read it as Ashara "turning to Stark" as a result of the man who "dishonored" her, not that the Stark dishonored her. Like I said, if you read it, the people going on about "the Stark dishonoring her at Harrenhal" are misreading the shit out of it.

[Alia of the knife]

I think that it's obvious that "Stark" is worded ambiguoulsy and is meant to throw the readers off, because at first read, it doesn't mean that a Stark had anything to do with her dishonor, only she turned to one. But you have to realize that men and women just didn't have relationships like that in those days, with the sole exception of the unusual events that brought "friendships" between Gendry and Arya, or Brienne and Jaimie.

I think there is a tendency to view these events through a modern lense.

Either Ashara turns to Brandon, or Ned because of some real dishonor done to her, or some man broke her heart, but why does that lead her to turn to a Stark as opposed to any other man there?

And again, to turn to a man outside ones clan, or family would have been highly unusual- even for those wild Dornish girls.

No, she would need to turn to "Stark" for a specific reason like influence, intercedence, or intervention. She would also have needed to certainly know them well enough to turn to either Stark for that sort of reason, and the only influence the Starks had on anyone, were each other.

Though Brandon would be a peer of the realm, I take it this is Rickards first foray into the South, so I doubt Brandon knew anyone well enough to exact any influence that would benefit Ashara.

So, I'm still sticking with Brandon either seducing her, and throwing her aside, or merely could do nothing about his betrothal to Cat even if he loved Ashara. I could very well see Brandon prevailing upon Ned to help Ashara, as he onced prevailed upon Ashara to help Ned.

[The White Wolf]

I've been seeing quite a bit of this on the forum lately, actually. Rather disheartening.

This is basically what keeps me from posting. Some of the things I read here just drive me up the wall. And I can't think very coherently when I'm angry at someone else's stupidity :P

[Jon Icefyre]

This is a huge point. Can someone please tell me which Barristan chapter this is exactly and relatively where are his Harrenhall memories?

I want to say it's in The Kingbreaker? He just thinks that if he had won the tournament, he would've crowned Ashara and Rhaegar wouldn't have crowned Lyanna and set off the whole mess, in his mind, and that Ashara might have known that he loved and would have "turned" to him instead of Stark. The man who "dishonored" her is never used interchangeably with the "Stark," nor is the specific Stark ever identified. On the contrary, you could feasibly read it as Ashara "turning to Stark" as a result of the man who "dishonored" her, not that the Stark dishonored her. Like I said, if you read it, the people going on about "the Stark dishonoring her at Harrenhal" are misreading the shit out of it.

Ya it's Kingbreaker

[Alia of the knife]

Not sure that Barristan's thought of "looking to" are before Ned returns Dawn to House Dayne. It would be legitimate for Barristan to think that Ashara asked something of Ned when he was there, lacking any other information, and considering his visit is before Ashara's bleakest moods and apparent suicide.Well, Harrenhal was in the year of the false spring, and the Prince's Pass is in the mountains. Would the pass be impassable during the winter? She would have returned to King's Landing with Elia after the tourney, and a month or more passes before she shows pregnant. I am not sure that Tansy Tea is preferrable to delivering the baby, since it was surreptitiously administered to Lysa, the only time that we know of its use. She was of Dorne, so having the child may be less of a burden than it would be of a normal Westerosi.

The foreboding that Barristan expresses about Aerys deciding to attend could be the beginning of his redactions in his memories, if he knew about Aerys raping Ashara. Another idea could be that Barristan has no idea who dishonored Ashara (I dislike hanging it on a Stark, any of them for a reason), but may have heard directly from her or her brother than she had been. We have all seven Kingsguard at the tourney, and Jaime leaves after being inducted. So, whoever was with the king if he raped Ashara, could still be holding his peace. But, we know that Aerys declared that the Knight of the Laughing Tree was no friend of his and sent Rhaegar after him. We know that Rhaegar never goes anywhere without a Kingsguard, except when he goes to Summerhall. Suppose it is Barristan that goes with Rhaegar in search of the Knight of the Laughing Tree, he then would know a secret about Rhaegar and Lyanna. He does mention that Rhaegar loved Lyanna. He would know why Rhaegar was driven to win the tourney, and why he presented the crown to Lyanna.

There are two possible reasons.

And I don't think it's impossible, but, as far as the situation with the Starks, no, I don't think it has to be a situation where either Brother is a bad guy, but just another layer of tragedy no matter who it was. If it was Brandon and he fell in love with Ashara and she with him, it's another situation where two people who love each other can't be together, and if it's Ned, a union would have been possible had it not been for Brandons death, and Ned needing to carry forth the Tully alliance.

I've even wondered if "the man" who dishonored her, (if we're speaking of it in terms of assault), might have been a drunken Robert?

[Zupoleon]

I want to say it's in The Kingbreaker? He just thinks that if he had won the tournament, he would've crowned Ashara and Rhaegar wouldn't have crowned Lyanna and set off the whole mess, in his mind, and that Ashara might have known that he loved and would have "turned" to him instead of Stark. The man who "dishonored" her is never used interchangeably with the "Stark," nor is the specific Stark ever identified. On the contrary, you could feasibly read it as Ashara "turning to Stark" as a result of the man who "dishonored" her, not that the Stark dishonored her. Like I said, if you read it, the people going on about "the Stark dishonoring her at Harrenhal" are misreading the shit out of it.

I agree for what it's worth, but would add the following: assuming she was romantically involved with a Stark (lets say Brandon), their tryst would automatically be seen as a 'dishonor' by outsiders, even if it was consensual. We are getting this from Barristan's POV, and we know he had fallen hard for Ashara, so of course he'll see it in a negative light. I guess I'm just leaving the possibility that the 'dishonor' wasn't necessarily a violent encounter at the hands Aerys or Robert or whoever...

[Alia of the knife]

I agree for what it's worth, but would add the following: assuming she was romantically involved with a Stark (lets say Brandon), their tryst would automatically be seen as a 'dishonor' by outsiders, even if it was consensual. We are getting this from Barristan's POV, and we know he had fallen hard for Ashara, so of course he'll see it in a negative light. I guess I'm just leaving the possibility that the 'dishonor' wasn't necessarily a violent encounter at the hands Aerys or Robert or whoever...

Good analysis.

Yeah, it's obviously ambiguous, and initially meant to point away from the Starks, but in the end, it just screams it wasn't Ned. Ashara has to have LOGICAL reason, as much as an emotional one to turn "to Stark," which means connection, (i.e, Brandon, Robert, or Ned as a cover).

Somebody has to be able to do something for her, and affect her life, not merely be a shoulder to cry on, or any man at Court would suffice.