Dany or Mirri? Which one was in the Right?

[Lady of Dragonstone]

The problem is that the only reason MMD was able to "strike back" against his wife and unborn child, was because that wife went out of her way to save her and other innocent women at no little personal risk. Dany did everything she could within her limited powers to help MMD and other women and was repaid for her kindness with grievous harm.

A person who repays kindness with death is no good person.

Have to agree with this.

I don't fully buy into MMD basically killing a fetus because of a prophecy foretold by savages. She can say that's why she did what she did, but I think she was using that as an excuse for revenge. And yes, Dany also exacted her own revenge. Tit for tat, I suppose.

Still, Daenerys had naught to do with Drogo raping, killing, And pillaging. She wasn't aware of the reasons until Jorah told her and even then, as others said, Drogo would have still done what he did. That's their way of life. MMD took advantage of Dany's naïvete and blind kindness. And that's sad.

Anyway, thank the gods for MMD and long live those darn dragons.

[Young Nan]

In the "grand scheme" what Mirri did was right. If Eva Braun was a kind and noble woman who saved a few people from the holocaust, and you had a chance to use her as a means of getting rid of Hitler, it would still be the right thing to do to get rid of Hitler.

As a book reader seeing everything from Dany's perspective, of course I feel betrayed as she did, and I was happy to see Dany burn her. Same way I occasionally find myself rooting for Walter White or Tony Soprano. But if this was a "real" situation my feelings would be for MMD.

I think that's a really good point. we're inside danys head, so we see she didn't mean to have a whole town looted and pillaged by her husband. But mirri isn't, so all she sees is someone who was ok with burning her whole town to the ground to get what she wanted, as long as she assuaged her guilt by "saving" a few people.

it all depends in where u are standing

[mattah84]

I think that Shadowbinders like Mirri Maz Duur have some type of agenda with the Targaryen's and their descendants. For the most part, when we have met Shadowbinders, they are almost always dealing with the Targaryens or their descendants in the story. Melisandre is with Stannis (A Targaryen Descendant). Quaithe repeatedly pops up out of nowhere to give Dany prophecies and riddles. And Mirri Maz Duur also killed Khal Drogo with her magic, and Dany's unborn son Rhaego. She even mentions something to Dany about how the child came out looking like a lizard (a.k.a. dragon). Mirri Maz Dur was also in Westeros at some point in the past as she says she learned something from a Maester in Oldtown. Not sure exactly why she was in Westeros, but I found that odd.

I also have a theory that the Shadowbinders, or at least Melisandre, are somehow related to Others/Wights, because there have been a few descriptions where Others/Wights have been described as moving quick like shadows (particularly the opening chapter of AGOT). Also, when Melisandre's shadow baby stabs Renly (also a descendant of the Targaryens), he mutters the word "Cold" right before it happens, very much like POVs near the wall have muttered the word "Cold" right before the Wights/Others come. Also, Craster sacrificing his Male Children to his cruel gods, has always reminded me of Melisandre wanting to sacrifice people with Kings Blood.

Quaithe also has a quote where she says that Shadowbinders drink from the cup of fire, and from the cup of ice. This defnitely ties in with there being some type of relation either between R'hllor and the Great Other, or at least between Melisandre and the Others/The Great Other.

Maybe Shadowbinders try to kill Targaryens and their Dragons, because both their Magic and their Dragons can be used against the Others/Wights/Shadows that we have seen.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

Mirri warned them against everything they did, both Drogo and Daenerys. She warned her against blood magic and so did the Dothraki (it's forbidden for them, and as much as their "it is known" is mocked, in this case they do know something). Then, Mirri warned once again:

"You must. Once I begin to sing, no one must enter this tent. My song will wake powers old and dark. The dead will dance here this night. No living man must look on them."

And Daenerys just ignored them all and went on. Did she have an alternative? Yes, flee to Assai with Jorah. But she was ready to pay any price but her life for the life of Drogo. I believe that her love for Drogo is only a (relatively small) part of her reasons. The main reason IMO is that Drogo was her vehicle to the Iron Throne.

So, Daenerys had a great part of responsibility for all that happened and I am not so sure that Drogo and Rhaego's deaths are Mirri's work. There is a possibility that she claimed responsibility a posteriori when her death was inevitable, as a form of revenge. Something like Tyrion deciding to claim responsibility for Joffrey's murder after his trial.

Anyway, I am with Mirri here. Even if she did killed them in the end, she had given Daenerys the choice and true warnings. As she said, she had nothing to live for. Desperate people do desperate things. Also Mirri had no reason to be loyal to Daenerys and never pretended to be thankful:

Dany turned back to Mirri Maz Duur. The woman's eyes were wary. "So you have saved me once more."

"And now you must save him," Dany said. "Please

"You do not ask a slave," Mirri replied sharply, "you tell her."

The whole MMD incident was a turning point for me, I stopped rooting for Daenerys since then.

[Cas Stark]

It wasn't Dany's fault she ended up in the tent, it was Jorah who brought her in there. I do agree that it seems a 50/50 proposition that Rhaego's death was an accident and not premeditated, something she took credit for after the fact, it's odd though that she never bothers defending herself to Dany by reminding her that ya know, I told you to stay out of the tent, dummy, don't blame me.

It seems clear though that her intent was to bring Drogo back as a vegetable, which is why she only asked for a horse's life, not a human life.

[mattah84]

Dany turned back to Mirri Maz Duur. The woman's eyes were wary. "So you have saved me once more."

"And now you must save him," Dany said. "Please

"You do not ask a slave," Mirri replied sharply, "you tell her."

This quote right here kind of signified MMD's dismay and anger towards Daenarys despite the fact that Dany saved her. When Mirri is saying you do not ask a slave, you tell her, it seems like she is kind of mocking her.

She also says something to the effect of, "Now his son will not burn any temples, like his father burned mine" or something to that effect.

MMD did end up keeping Drogo alive, but she told a half truth to Dany. MMD probably knew that Drogo would be in a vegetative state, but she excluded that piece of information when explaining things to Dany.

I also don't think that Drogo's cut was as bad as MMD made it out to be. The wound festered because of what she put on top of it. It irritated Drogo alot, and so he took it off. But when I read that scene, I remember wondering why Drogo says the cut is not that big of a deal, but Dany feels it necessary to have MMD look at it.

I think that MMD was either intentionally out to prevent Danaerys (A Targaryen) from procreating, or that she decided to to pay Drogo and his Khal back harshly for burning her temple and raping her.

If MMD didn't give any warnings with regards to her Blood Magic, it would of seemed wierd as even the members of the Khal were putting that type of magic down. She needed to seem genuine in order to get Danaerys to go along.

[Jasta11]

Defintely Mirri. Drogo is a mass murdering bastard, and even if you don't believe the Stallion that Will Mount the World prophecy, Dany's child would almost certainly end up also being one. It's not OK to kill an unborn child, but I can definitely understand why she did it. The fact that it's Dany's POV makes us feel for her, but I doubt Mirri shes her as a kind figure, hell maybe she even thinks Dany is rubbing salt in the wound by not killing her and feigning kindness. After being raped and having your village burned, last thing you want is living among your rapists.

[mattah84]

Mirri was able to give the warnings that she was, because she knew exactly what would happen and how everything would turn out.

However, Mirri was not entirely correct. She told Dany, "You will not hear me scream," and Dany told her, "Yes I will". Dany was actually right about that.

MMD was right about Drogo being alive afterwards, but omitted telling Dany that he would be in a vegetative state. Dany and Mirri were both right in what they said in a way, but in my opinion MMD meant to kill Dany's child and turn Drogo to a vegetative state.

Also, like someone said above, if you have been raped and had your temple burned, the last thing that you want to do is live amongst your captors and rapists, so MMD probably decided to go out with a bang, kind of like a suicide mission.

[LordStoneheart]

There is no way I'd ever sympathize with Mirri.

As Dany said, she saved Mirri's life. Drogo as a vegetable was not a comparison to 'when there is nothing else left' because Mirri could still live on doing whatever it was she did. Probably eating.

Dany didn't know Mirri had already been raped and her family killed. Dany's was an act of kindness. Mirri's was an act of evil.

As for defending Drogo and the riders...

Spoils of war. that's about it. The Dothraki are no more barbaric than any other human civilization, in their world or ours.

[BericDondarrion]

I always felt bad for Mirri Maz Duur, especially in the show. The lhazareen are peaceful people. The dothraki are savage brutes who are the scum of the earth. Drogo killed, raped and pillaged as he pleased. Mirri exacted revenge and I applaud her. Rhaego would have been even worse, the stallion that mounts the world was going to "leave a wake of destruction wherever he goes". Mirri sacrificed one innocent baby to stop him from becoming an even worse monster then his father Drogo. I was hoping when Mirri said she wouldn't scream during her burning that she would actually be tough enough not too... But alas she screamed painfully. Danys burning of MMD is what caused my enmity towards her and I will never support/like Daenerys.

As for defending Drogo and the riders...

Spoils of war. that's about it. The Dothraki are no more barbaric than any other human civilization, in their world or ours.

Killing every male, raping every woman and selling everyone of their children into slavery is not "spoils " of war. It is an unprovoked slaughter of innocent people who can't even fight back. The lhazareen are lamb/sheep herders. They are not a martial people, yet the Dothrakis savagely kill Rape and enslave every single one of them. Westerosi don't sell their "enemies" into slavery. Dothraki do. Drogo was a bad, evil man. I was glad for what happened to him

[LordStoneheart]

I always felt bad for Mirri Maz Duur, especially in the show. The lhazareen are peaceful people. The dothraki are savage brutes who are the scum of the earth. Drogo killed, raped and pillaged as he pleased. Mirri exacted revenge and I applaud her. Rhaego would have been even worse, the stallion that mounts the world was going to "leave a wake of destruction wherever he goes". Mirri sacrificed one innocent baby to stop him from becoming an even worse monster then his father Drogo. I was hoping when Mirri said she wouldn't scream during her burning that she would actually be tough enough not too... But alas she screamed painfully. Danys burning of MMD is what caused my enmity towards her and I will never support/like Daenerys.

Killing every male, raping every woman and selling everyone of their children into slavery is not "spoils " of war. It is an unprovoked slaughter of innocent people who can't even fight back. The lhazareen are lamb/sheep herders. They are not a martial people, yet the Dothrakis savagely kill Rape and enslave every single one of them. Westerosi don't sell their "enemies" into slavery. Dothraki do. Drogo was a bad, evil man. I was glad for what happened to him

1. There's no such thing as peaceful people.

2. The dothraki are no more savage than other civilizations that have had success.

3. That was a prophecy, and prophecies are not to be taken seriously, so you can't say with any certainty that Rhaego would've been worse.

4. Mirri deserved death. If not for her atrocities, than for her own peace since she claimed to have nothing to live for.

5. Yes, that is spoils of war.

6. If the Lhazareen can't fight back in this type of world, perhaps they aren't fit to make it. They know there's "savage" civilizations all around them on Essos, but choose to be peaceful stupid.

7. They used to. Jorah did and he's not a savage. They may not sell slaves now, but that hardly makes their other practices better than Dothraki. See the Sack of King's Landing, and other battles. women were raped, innocents slaughtered. Dothraki and Westerosi are both "savage" in that aspect. But it's not savage; its human nature when power arises.

8. Drogo was never evil. Nor was Tywin. Nor was Robert. Nor was Aegon the Dragon. Nor was Robb. Nor were any other great commanders. They were simply just fierce at what they did.

[Selyxi]

I agree. Mirri gives Drogo a healing poultice, he takes it off, gets an infection, she tells Dany that death may be a better idea, but dragon queen won't take no for an answer. Mirri decides to teach a lesson about what life is worth when all else is gone.

She tells Dany to stay out of the tent, but she ends up in the tent anyway, which is not really Mirri's fault, Mirri I assume, says to herself at this point, "fuck it"...might as well get rid of the stallion who mounts the world while I am at it...but we don't even know for sure if killing Rhaego was a by product of Mirri's spell because Dany was in the tent or if she did it on purpose. She takes credit for it, but the Rhaego/dragons may have been something beyond her control or knowledge and occured only because all of those elements were in the tent together with the blood magic. Then again, Mirri makes no defense for herself that Rhaego's death was an unintended consequence either.

I do not believe that was actually a healing poultice. I think she mixed something up with the intention of making the wound fester and itch (and make his scratching push everything in more).

As others have pointed out, Jorah carried her into the tent. IIRC, she tried to protest but he didn't understand or hear her. And I don't think you could convince me that Mirri wasn't banking on Dany coming back into the tent for some reason, probably concern for Drogo, so she could put the whammy on Rhaego like she did.

Killing Drogo is completely understandable, but after what she's done to him, she cannot hurt him further by deforming and killing his unborn son, or striking his wife barren. She did those things only to hurt Dany who had only tried to be kind to her (even if it was too little, too late). I agree with what My Fair Lady said above me.

I don't fully buy into MMD basically killing a fetus because of a prophecy foretold by savages. She can say that's why she did what she did, but I think she was using that as an excuse for revenge.

...

MMD took advantage of Dany's naivete and blind kindness. And that's sad.

[Uncle Stannis]

Mirri was definitely in the right, her everyone she knew was wiped out, the fact that Dany considers it treason is laughable.

[Cas Stark]

I don't know about that...the way the poutice is described it sounds like its something that has an astringent herb in it...which would be the correct type of medicine to prevent infection...and she tells him it will itch and burn...which is a sign of healing, and that is correct also. She uses a silver needle, if I'm remembering right, can't remember if she heats it or not, but it all sounds like she was doing the right stuff.

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

1 I do not believe that was actually a healing poultice. I think she mixed something up with the intention of making the wound fester and itch (and make his scratching push everything in more).

2 As others have pointed out, Jorah carried her into the tent. IIRC, she tried to protest but he didn't understand or hear her. And I don't think you could convince me that Mirri wasn't banking on Dany coming back into the tent for some reason, probably concern for Drogo, so she could put the whammy on Rhaego like she did.

3 Killing Drogo is completely understandable, but after what she's done to him, she cannot hurt him further by deforming and killing his unborn son, or striking his wife barren. She did those things only to hurt Dany who had only tried to be kind to her (even if it was too little, too late). I agree with what My Fair Lady said above me.

1. This is possible.

2. This is less so. It sounded pretty creepy. She'd have to setup a large number of things. If she was planning on sacrificing Rhaego, she'd have to be able to reach him from outside the tent. Otherwise, it is too random.

3. But is she innocent from MMD's perspective?

Did MMD know that Drogo attacked the Lambmen because he wanted to raise money for her war? Dany may not have counted on it resulting in such an attack, but that won't matter to MMD. It simply comes out like this:

Dany wants the Iron Throne = MMD gets repeatedly raped + the women she knows in the village getting raped + all the children in the village enslaved + all the men in the village murdered

Also, Dany's only trying to be kind to her comes too little too late. Dany's stops the rapes she sees and suggests the rapists take their victims as wives.

Now, I fully believe Dany was trying to do good. But I can fully see how the horrible shit the Dotharaki did to their village isn't suddenly forgiven by what little she did (regardless of whether or not she did everything she could). And if MMD discovered why Drogo attacked her village, then Dany would lose any claims of innocence in the matter. We can argue whether or not Dany is responsible because she never actually seen a Dotharaki raid before. But MMD isn't going to be reasonable. She's going to blame everyone who had a part in it, and Dany had a very large part in it even if it can be argued from an objective viewpoint that her ignorance makes her less responsible.

[Selyxi]

I don't know about that...the way the poutice is described it sounds like its something that has an astringent herb in it...which would be the correct type of medicine to prevent infection...and she tells him it will itch and burn...which is a sign of healing, and that is correct also. She uses a silver needle, if I'm remembering right, can't remember if she heats it or not, but it all sounds like she was doing the right stuff.

Looking at a pdf of the book, she goes through the motions, to be sure. Pulls out the arrow, pours boiling wine on the wound, and ultimately stitches him up, but she uses leaves, a pale green paste and a red ointment, and that's all we're told about it.

That being said, after he tears it off, his own people make him a poultice of fig leaves and blue (?) mud. That may have done it. But MMD actually attempting to heal him just doesn't fit to me. She offers to treat him, and I think it's a play. If she's as skilled as she claims, did she just try to come up with the most unpleasant but effective poultice she can with the hope that he'd annoyed and pull it off? If he doesn't, she's just actually treated him. I think what she put on him was intended to encourage infection, or just did nothing but itch and burn so he would keep messing with it then tear it off.

I don't disagree with you on any point, Lord Bronn. I just think if we're tallying rights and wrongs here, even though they're both accountable, that MMD earned herself a few extra ticks in the wrongs column by deforming and killing a nearly full-term fetus out of vengeance. Just my opinion.

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

Looking at a pdf of the book, she goes through the motions, to be sure. Pulls out the arrow, pours boiling wine on the wound, and ultimately stitches him up, but she uses leaves, a pale green paste and a red ointment, and that's all we're told about it.

That being said, after he tears it off, his own people make him a poultice of fig leaves and blue (?) mud. That may have done it. But MMD actually attempting to heal him just doesn't fit to me. She offers to treat him, and I think it's a play. If she's as skilled as she claims, did she just try to come up with the most unpleasant but effective poultice she can with the hope that he'd annoyed and pull it off? If he doesn't, she's just actually treated him. I think what she put on him was intended to encourage infection, or just did nothing but itch and burn so he would keep messing with it then tear it off.

I don't disagree with you on any point, Lord Bronn. I just think if we're tallying rights and wrongs here, even though they're both accountable, that MMD earned herself a few extra ticks in the wrongs column by deforming and killing a nearly full-term fetus out of vengeance. Just my opinion.

I was just point out Dany was probably not seen as innocent or full of "naivete and blind kindness" as My Fair Lady said in MMD's eyes. As far as Rhaego. I'm torn. My question was going to sacrifice him anyways or only after Jorah brought Dany into the tent? It's possible either way.

And if she was, it was horrible. Maybe somewhat mollified by the whole prophecy thing, but murdering a baby is still murdering a baby regardless of what he is propagandized to do. Still morally wrong even it can be argued that it was ultimately the right decision (I'm not saying I would, just saying that part is debatable).

[Nictarion]

For killing Khal Drogo, the most badass character ever made, I'll always hate Mirri. Sorry I'm biased so, yeah

I agree. Maybe the stupid lamb men should have grown some balls and armed themselves to fight the dothraki. Where do they think they lived? Either be prepared to fight the dothraki you know will eventually attack or get the hell out of that region.

[Nictarion]

In the "grand scheme" what Mirri did was right. If Eva Braun was a kind and noble woman who saved a few people from the holocaust, and you had a chance to use her as a means of getting rid of Hitler, it would still be the right thing to do to get rid of Hitler.

As a book reader seeing everything from Dany's perspective, of course I feel betrayed as she did, and I was happy to see Dany burn her. Same way I occasionally find myself rooting for Walter White or Tony Soprano. But if this was a "real" situation my feelings would be for MMD.

The Hitler comparison of this person or that person is tossed around way to much IMO. Drogo was not trying to commit genocide of an entire race of people. He was conducting a practice (slavery) and conquering weaker peoples that unfortunately most so called civilized countries still practiced within the last couple hundred years.

[SeanF]

Not to mention that the reason they were plundering in the first place, was to raise money for Dany to retake westeros, which Drogo was finally convinced to do after the whole thing with Viserys.

Yes, but Drogo made the decision because Dany had been urging him to help her retake the Iron Throne, and he finally agreed. Dany asks Jorah what the deal is with the plundering, and Jorah tells her, this is the cost of war, this is what you wanted, the Dothraki need to plunder to make gold for ships, etc. (not exactly those words).

Dany is half-way between being a woman and a child during her story. Absurd as it may seem, it's probably never occurred to her up till now that large numbers of innocent people will be murdered, robbed, raped, enslaved, if she's to win the Iron Throne. If she'd been told about women getting raped, without seeing it, she'd probably respond in much the same way that Shae did, when Lollys was raped. Now she sees what mass rape entails, and tries to stop it,

Likewise with her attitude towards slavery, which never bothered her until she found out how the Unsullied were created.