The Winds of Winter untouched topics

[Veltigar]

Tyrion is backing Dany. He made that decision when he gave flawed advice to Aegon.

Although I agree that Tyrion is firmly attached to Dany's band wagon I don't think that he made the decision there. Don't forget he wanted to come along with Faegon to mess things up in Westeros. In fact if Jorah had not taken him he would have probably remained true to Faegon and helped him out the best he could even though he knows that Faegon is a fake.

[Tywin Smokin a Blunt]

I like the idea of Stannis as the Night King. Its poetic, Melisandre works so hard to help him acend the throne, but he ends up being the one who brings about the long night she's trying to stop. I think its pretty clear from her own visions at the end of Dance, that he's not the fulfillment of her prophecy because everytime she tries to find her champion she sees everyone but Stannis, so the idea that she was fighting the wrong side of the war the whole time seems like a very George move to me. Whoever said he would bend the knee to Dany though is crazy, its not in his character, everything about the man says he'll fight to the bitter end, and will do whatever he has to in order to get what he thinks is his. Another reason I think he'll end up on the side of the Others, if there were some way he thought he could ride that tiger all the way to the Iron Throne, Stannis would take it in a heartbeat.

[Babeldygob]

Gulltown is a likely place, but so is Lannisport. The Lannisters' position is weakened with Kevan dead and Cersei attempting to recover her power. Takign the Rock by force would send a message that resonates throughout the Seven Kingdoms and would set up possible alliances between Dany and The Vale/The North/Dorne/Tyrell forces. If she takes The Vale by force, she risks being received as a conqueror. If she wants tp be a liberator, she should liberate the realm from Lannisters, not from LF. LF is not perceived as a threat to the general populace, while the Lannisters have been raping and pillaging most of the Riverlands in the past few years.

You all seem to hate LF and I understand your motivations, but he is not about to be toppled just because of dragons. If someone is going to be LF's downfall it will be Sansa and Sansa alone.

[aryagonnakill]

Gulltown is a likely place, but so is Lannisport. The Lannisters' position is weakened with Kevan dead and Cersei attempting to recover her power. Takign the Rock by force would send a message that resonates throughout the Seven Kingdoms and would set up possible alliances between Dany and The Vale/The North/Dorne/Tyrell forces. If she takes The Vale by force, she risks being received as a conqueror. If she wants tp be a liberator, she should liberate the realm from Lannisters, not from LF. LF is not perceived as a threat to the general populace, while the Lannisters have been raping and pillaging most of the Riverlands in the past few years.

You all seem to hate LF and I understand your motivations, but he is not about to be toppled just because of dragons. If someone is going to be LF's downfall it will be Sansa and Sansa alone.

I thought this a lot when I first read the last few Sansa chapters. But now it almost feels to obvious and I sometimes go back to thinking Tyrion will get his revenge on both the Vale lord by making Timmet Liege and Baelish by fire.

[Persicaria]

I'm kind of not bought on the assumption that Sansa will aide Dany in getting control of the vale. It all seems to stem from the fact the Tyrion would be able to convince them both. Does anyone remember Tyrion in dance. He is bitter he half blames Sansa for what happens. He thinks that she is in on it. If he finds her with Little Finger in the Vales he's morelikely to ask Dany to fry as help her because it would look like the two had been conspiring against him. He's got a screw loose up there. He' taken a much more darker turn and has much less trust in others than he did before (which wasn't much to begin with). I just hope Alayne is unrecognizable enough if and when dragons come to the Vale.

[jpreis]

I'm ... not bought on ..

I believe the expression is "sold on", not "bought on." When you "buy into" something, you're "sold on" it. But there's no need to twist the English language like a pretzel. You could have written "I'm not sure I can accept the assumption..." or even more simply, "I question the assumption..."

It all seems to stem from the fact the Tyrion would be able to convince them both.

What stems from what? How could you possibly know that it is a "fact that Tyrion would be able to convince them both" unless and until Tyrion actually succeeds at convincing "them both"? And convince them of what, exactly?

It seems that you are confusing fact with what you merely believe be true.

I just hope Alayne is unrecognizable enough if and when dragons come to the Vale.

Does Superman become unrecognizable when he dons on his civvies and wears glasses? Except for Peter and his men, no one in the Vale knows what Sansa looks like, except that she's said to be "a young maid, three-and-ten and fair of face, with blue eyes and auburn hair." Thanks to a good dye job, no one with recognize her from THAT description.

[jpreis]

I thought this a lot when I first read the last few Sansa chapters. But now it almost feels to obvious and I sometimes go back to thinking Tyrion will get his revenge on both the Vale lord by making Timmet Liege and Baelish by fire.

The sickly child, Lord Robert, whom you call the "Vale lord" is Lord of the Eyrie and Defender of the Vale, not the "Vale Lord." There are many lords of the Vale, just as there are many lords of the North, many lords of the riverlands, etc., etc. Why would Tyrion seek revenge on a sickly child, when it was Lady Lysa, the child's mother, who imprisoned him? Lysa is already dead. And whoever succeeds Lord Robert as Lord of the Eyrie and Defender of the Vale must have the support of the lords of the Vale.

[Persicaria]

I believe the expression is "sold on", not "bought on." When you "buy into" something, you're "sold on" it. But there's no need to twist the English language like a pretzel. You could have written "I'm not sure I can accept the assumption..." or even more simply, "I question the assumption..."

What stems from what? How could you possibly know that it is a "fact that Tyrion would be able to convince them both" unless and until Tyrion actually succeeds at convincing "them both"? And convince them of what, exactly?

It seems that you are confusing fact with what you merely believe be true.

Does Superman become unrecognizable when he dons on his civvies and wears glasses? Except for Peter and his men, no one in the Vale knows what Sansa looks like, except that she's said to be "a young maid, three-and-ten and fair of face, with blue eyes and auburn hair." Thanks to a good dye job, no one with recognize her from THAT description.

There is a way to speak to people where you can make a correction without coming off as rude. I think you have yet to master that. I do admit that my thoughts flew faster than my fingers. I wonder, why did you bother to respond when you thought it was incomprehensible?

Now the reasons why TYrion is not the best candidate for brokering an alliance with the vale.

Fact : the court of King's Landing got a very good look at Sansa Stark; she was a very visible war hostage.

Fact: Tyrion was married to the girl and is smart enough to put two and two together

Fact: Tyrion believes that Sansa was involved in the plot to kill Joffrey, because she disappeared right after Joffrey's poisoning. she put him in a bad spot by not being there to testify on his behalf (not that the words of the daughter of a traitor would have counted for much)

Fact: Sansa is pretending to be Petyr's daughter. Tyrions knows Petyr as an enemy.

Guilt by association?

Fact: Tyrion has become a very bitter and angry person.

Fact: Dany is growing less and less trusting (finally) as the series progresses.

Fact: Dany still doesn't want to understand what really caused the rebellion (that was less about Lyanna and more about Aery's sentencing several lords to a gruesome death). She is not ready to trust a Stark.

The idea that Tyrion is going to convince either of these two ladies of anything, let alone to work together, is a stretch.

Also, everything in this forum is an assumption. Only GRRM knows what will happen. We are all guessing; some are educated guesses and some are just gut instincts. Most assumptions are influenced by personal prejudices, and to think that anyone here is completely without prejudice or preference is incorrect.

[jpreis]

I really have no opinion whether Tyrion is or isn't the best candidate for brokering an alliance with the lords of the Vale. The question is ambiguously phrased, and the answer--surely in the realm of speculation--ignores the more salient question of why would the lords of the Vale be interested in any alliance with anyone. While most of Westeros has been at war, the Vale has been at peace. I suspect that the lords of the Vale would prefer to remain at peace.

But Petyr Baelish has other plans for the Vale, which he confides to Sansa: “Our poor brave Sweetrobin is such a sickly boy, it is only a matter of time.[wink] When [not if!] Robert dies, Harry the Heir becomes Lord Harrold, Defender of the Vale and Lord of the Eyrie. Jon Arryn’s bannermen will never love me, nor our silly, shaking Robert, but they will love their Young Falcon … and when they come together for his wedding, and you come out with your long auburn hair, clad in a maiden’s cloak of white and grey with a direwolf emblazoned on the back … why, every knight in the Vale will pledge his sword to win you back your birthright. So those are your gifts from me, my sweet Sansa … Harry, the Eyrie, and Winterfell.” It appears that Petyr intends to hasten Lord Robert's demise, and soon after, advocate a campaign to win back Winterfell--and the North.

Can Tyrion's marriage to Sansa be undone? Of course! Tyrion already had his marriage to Tysha undone. "It was as if we had never been wed, the septons said." And Tyrion's marriage to Sansa was never consummated, making that marriage even more easily undone.

As for your "facts"---

I did not say no one knows what Sansa looks like. I said that "except for Petyr and his men, no one IN THE VALE knows what Sansa looks like." (Even her own aunt Lysa didn't recognize Alayne as Sansa until after Petyr told Lysa who she was.)

What Tyrion does or doesn't believe about Sansa, or whether or not he would recognize her, or what he thinks of Petyr Baelish seems irrelevant since he would negotiating with the lords of the Vale--not Sansa, not Petyr.

Tyrions knows Petyr as an enemy

Whoever negotiates an alliance with the lords of the Vale will be dealing with the lords of the Vale, not Petyr Baelish.

Tyrion has become a very bitter and angry person

This is a conclusion, not a fact..

Dany is growing less and less trusting (finally) as the series progresses

This is a conclusion, not a fact.

Sansa put Tyrion in a bad spot by not being there to testify on his behalf

Tyrion cannot possibly believe that there is any testimony--short of a lie--that Sansa could have given that would have established his innocence. Sansa knew Tyrion hated Joffrey and wondered, "Could he truly have killed him? Did he know about my hair net, about the black amethysts? He brought Joff wine. If Tyrion did it, they will think I was part of it."

Dany still doesn't want to understand what really caused the rebellion...

This is a conclusion, not a fact, and not relevant to Tyrion's suitability as an alliance broker.

she is not ready to trust a Stark

This is yet another conclusion, not a fact, and not relevant to Tyrion's suitability as an alliance broker. Is Dany really so naive that she mistrusts Sansa merely because she's the daughter of a Ned Stark? Does Dany believe all Targaryen's are like her brother Viserys? Dany knows that Barristan Selmy fought for Aerys against Robert, then served Robert--yet she made Selmy her Queensguard! And who is Sansa that Dany must concern herself with her in brokering an alliance with the lords of the Vale?

everything in this forum is an assumption.

Not everything in this forum is an assumption.

Only GRRM knows what will happen. We are all guessing

We're not trying to predict what will happen. Nor are we all guessing.

Most assumptions are influenced by personal prejudices, and to think that anyone here is completely without prejudice or preference is incorrect.

You seem to be confusing assumptions with opinions. An assumption is a fact, proposition, axiom, postulate, or notion that is taken for granted.

[~No One~]

I really have no opinion whether Tyrion is or isn't the best candidate for brokering an alliance with the lords of the Vale. The question is ambiguously phrased, and the answer--surely in the realm of speculation--ignores the more salient question of why would the lords of the Vale be interested in any alliance with anyone. While most of Westeros has been at war, the Vale has been at peace. I suspect that the lords of the Vale would prefer to remain at peace.

I think the Lords of the Vale wanted dearly to go to war. Lysa mentions that she kept them out of the war, and this angered her Lords to the point that tensions are running high in the Eyrie when Littlefinger gets there.

[juanml82]

Paraphrasing the wildlings, a man can have a woman or a hairnet full of strangler, but can't have both at the same time. So I don't see Sansa keeping up with an abusive husband if she doesn't want to.

As for the Vale, I don't see LF going against dragons. I guess he wants to head a power block he can offer to Danny should she arrive.

I also don't see Sansa leaving LF's camp for the foreseeable future and she might not want to trust the Royces. Sure, they wanted to go to war along with her brother and they most definitely want to rule the Vale. But that doesn't mean, now that the Young Wolf is dead, that they won't sell them to the Iron Throne for political gain.

Tyrion believes a man with power can't afford grudges and also believes a Lannister always pays his debts, so he has reasons to advice Danny for and against an alliance with LF. I think his first instinct will be to kill Baelish.

[jpreis]

I think the Lords of the Vale wanted dearly to go to war. Lysa mentions that she kept them out of the war, and this angered her Lords to the point that tensions are running high in the Eyrie when Littlefinger gets there.

It wasn't all the lords of the Vale. (Notice I didn't capitalize "lords" because it's not a proper noun.) It was Yohn Royce and his supporters. Lysa said, "Yohn Royce has been stirring up all sorts of trouble, demanding that I call my banners and go to war."

[jpreis]

Paraphrasing the wildlings, a man can have a woman or a hairnet full of strangler, but can't have both at the same time. So I don't see Sansa keeping up with an abusive husband if she doesn't want to.

How does the homespun wisdom of the wildings predict what Sansa will do? And what abusive husband?

As for the Vale, I don't see LF going against dragons. I guess he wants to head a power block he can offer to Danny should she arrive.

Littlefinger cannot forge alliances without the support of the lords of the Vale. He admitted to Sansa that the lords will never follow him. Instead, Littlefinger intends to hasten sickly Lord Robert's demise, so that Harry the Heir will become Lord Harrold, Defender of the Vale and Lord of the Eyrie and wed Sansa Stark, and the lords of the Vale will pledge their swords to win back Sansa's birthright: Winterfell.

I also don't see Sansa leaving LF's camp for the foreseeable future and she might not want to trust the Royces. Sure, they wanted to go to war along with her brother and they most definitely want to rule the Vale. But that doesn't mean, now that the Young Wolf is dead, that they won't sell them to the Iron Throne for political gain.

There is no Littlefinger "camp." Once the sickly Lord Robert is dead ("it's only a matter of time"), he will be succeeded by Harry the Heir, whom Sansa will wed.

Tyrion believes a man with power can't afford grudges and also believes a Lannister always pays his debts, so he has reasons to advice Danny for and against an alliance with LF.

How does your conclusion logically follow from your assumptions about what Tyrion supposedly believes? Is Tyrion (or the author) really that simplistic? When Tyrion says "a Lannister always pays his debts" is he really stating his guiding philosophy, or is he merely being sardonic, ironic or threatening? What "man with power?" What "debt" is there to be paid concerning Littlefinger?

[juanml82]

How does the homespun wisdom of the wildings predict what Sansa will do? And what abusive husband?

It doesn't. It's sort of a joke over the idea that Harry will be a douchebag or that Sansa will need elaborate plots to kill someone. She has quite a lot of poison, and one that doesn't leave marks. Maybe not as good as the tears of lys, but good enough nonetheless.

Littlefinger cannot forge alliances without the support of the lords of the Vale. He admitted to Sansa that the lords will never follow him. Instead, Littlefinger intends to hasten sickly Lord Robert's demise, so that Harry the Heir will become Lord Harrold, Defender of the Vale and Lord of the Eyrie and wed Sansa Stark, and the lords of the Vale will pledge their swords to win back Sansa's birthright: Winterfell.

We don't know if LF will kill Robert soon, after he has the Vale in his pocket or if he doesn't want him to die for the foreseeable future but believes he'll die nonetheless. LF has a lot to loose from Robert's death.

And about alliances, it's Littlefinger. If he wants the Vale to ally with someone, I bet he'll even make it look like it was one of the Lord Declarants' ideas. Even more, LF will probably have turned quite a lot of his Vale enemies into friends within time.

There is no Littlefinger "camp." Once the sickly Lord Robert is dead ("it's only a matter of time"), he will be succeeded by Harry the Heir, whom Sansa will wed.

And, even if it happens in that order, Sansa might still hear what LF has to say. My point is that, no matter how much we wish Sansa to kill LF for all the things he did (including those which Sansa is unlikely to know, ever), the truth is that they are allies of convenience for the time being. Sansa has to ditch LF at some point, simply because LF will otherwise ditch her at some point in the future.

But, what other options does she have? Escape to Gulltown and make her way to White Harbor? As far as she knows, Manderly bent the knee to the Iron Throne. Try to reach Winterfell? The Boltons will kill her to protect their claim through (F)Arya.

How does your conclusion logically follow from your assumptions about what Tyrion supposedly believes? Is Tyrion (or the author) really that simplistic? When Tyrion says "a Lannister always pays his debts" is he really stating his guiding philosophy, or is he merely being sardonic, ironic or threatening? What "man with power?" What "debt" is there to be paid concerning Littlefinger?

Tyrion, if he becomes Dannerys' advisor, will have plenty of power (mainly due the fact that Daennerys will have, at least, one dragon, if not three). Tyrion knows LF framed him in Bran's attempted murder and might believe he also framed him with Joffrey's death. So, in one hand, he has reasons to desire revenge upon Littlefinger. On the other, there might be realpolitik reasons to ally with him.

[jpreis]

It's sort of a joke over the idea that Harry will be a douchebag or that Sansa will need elaborate plots to kill someone. She has quite a lot of poison, and one that doesn't leave marks. Maybe not as good as the tears of lys, but good enough nonetheless.

Wild speculation. "We don't know" (your words below), nor has the text provided any reason to believe, that Harry will be "a douchebag" or that Sansa will be plotting to kill someone.

We don't know if LF will kill Robert soon, after he has the Vale in his pocket or if he doesn't want him to die for the foreseeable future but believes he'll die nonetheless. LF has a lot to loose from Robert's death.

Can there be any doubt that the sickly Lord Robert will soon die of apparently natural causes? Littlefinger hinted at it to Sansa:

“Our poor brave Sweetrobin is such a sickly boy,

it is only a matter of time

[wink!].

When

[not if!]

Robert dies

, Harry the Heir becomes Lord Harrold, Defender of the Vale and Lord of the Eyrie. Jon Arryn’s bannermen will never love me, nor our silly, shaking Robert, but they will love their Young Falcon … and when they come together for his wedding, and you come out with your long auburn hair, clad in a maiden’s cloak of white and grey with a direwolf emblazoned on the back … why, every knight in the Vale will pledge his sword to win you back your birthright. So those are your gifts from me, my sweet Sansa … Harry, the Eyrie, and Winterfell.”

Littlefinger's plans depend on Harry the Heir becoming Lord Harrold, Defender of the Vale and Lord of the Eyrie, which cannot happen until Lord Robert dies. (I suspect that Sansa's unconsummated marriage to Tyrion (an attainted, condemned murderer, kingslayer and kinslayer) can be undone by a septon as easily as Tyrion's marriage to Tysha was undone.

And about alliances, it's Littlefinger. If he wants the Vale to ally with someone, I bet he'll even make it look like it was one of the Lord Declarants' ideas. Even more, LF will probably have turned quite a lot of his Vale enemies into friends within time.

More speculation, and at odds with the text. As Littlefinger himself told Sansa, "Jon Arryn’s bannermen will never love me, nor our silly, shaking Robert, but they will love their Young Falcon " Once their Young Falcon ascends, Littlefinger can no longer be Lord Protector of the Vale.

…no matter how much we wish Sansa to kill LF for all the things he did …

I didn't know that "we" wish Sansa to kill Littlefinger. Sounds like a rather childish expectation: Sansa good. Littlefinger bad. Sansa kill Littlefinger. We like.

I hope the author has more imagination than readers who are addicted to the denouements of soap operas and Hollywood movies.

If a notion about story is popular, that does not make it true. Some of the most ridiculous ideas about this story are the most popular.

The notion that the earth is flat was once popular.

Tyrion, if he becomes Dannerys' advisor, will have plenty of power (mainly due the fact that Daennerys will have, at least, one dragon, if not three).

Advisors advise. They do not wield power. And while queens may listen to advice, they are not required to follow it.

…he has reasons to desire revenge upon Littlefinger…

Is Tyrion really preoccupied with revenge?

[Petyr Patter]

Thoughts in no particular order...

1) I'm not sold with Tyrion actually joining Danaerys. For one thing, she's in the middle of the Dothraki sea, and he's in the middle of a battle on the losing side. I understand that A Dance with Dragons was to long already, but why hold back their meeting until the next novel if they are going join up?

2) I suspect we are going to see Aegon (real or fake, doesn't really matter) continue to make gains, possibly taking King's Landing itself.

3) I think if Danaerys does actually invade Westeros, it's going to be a major blunder. Like invade the North to beat Stark and Baratheon Usurpers! Upon landing, burn the ships to show we can never retreat if we wanted to! During Winter!

4) Regardless, I do think Tyrion will end up in the Vale, somehow. The Vale just doesn't have enough going on right now, and Tyrion has DEBTS to pay there. He did say he'd give the Vale to the Hill Tribes. He also knows Littlefinger fingered him for Bran's assassination, which eventually caused him to be locked in a sky cell.

5) Tyrion's marriage to Sansa is NOT easy to nullify or pretend it never happened. Hence why Littlefinger never says "annulment," he says "after Tyrion is dead." It can only be set aside by the HIGH Septon, or something called a "council of the faith." They was married in front of some of the most important movers and shakers in Westeros. The wedding was talked about all over the Realm. While we don't know the particulars of his 'divorce' to Tysha, the marriage apparently was only known to the 2 of them and a drunk Septon. I suspect the drunk part is what allowed Tywin to know it was legally annulled and pretend it never happened. He would not leave anything to chance, and Tysha would have been hung otherwise.

6) It sort of looks like Littlefinger's plans (though he doesn't reveal much about them) were unravelling quickly. He promised a "war of the 3 queens." My best guesses are Myrcella, Margaery, and Sansa (as Queen of the North) fighting to fill the vacuum caused by sudden death of Tommen and Cersei. If Stannis and Aegon prevail, there would then be 2 pretty major kings taking precedence over 3 queens. Also, Bram and Rickon are alive, meaning Sansa's claim to Winterfell and QotN would be highly questionable. Finally, the Kettleblacks have pretty much been neutralized by the High Septon, who were Littlefinger's perfectly placed daggers in the dark. He's not beaten, but the "turn card" has weakened his position (to use a poker term).

[jpreis]

1) I'm not sold with Tyrion actually joining Danaerys. For one thing, she's in the middle of the Dothraki sea, and he's in the middle of a battle on the losing side.

(The expression is "sold on", not "sold with".)

“Oh, I know,” said Tyrion. “The Second Sons are on the losing side. They need to turn their cloaks again and do it now.” He grinned. “Leave that to me.”

I understand that A Dance with Dragons was to long already, but why hold back their meeting until the next novel if they are going join up?

Many meetings are deferred until the next book!

2) I suspect we are going to see Aegon (real or fake, doesn't really matter) continue to make gains, possibly taking King's Landing itself.

Varys told the dying Kevan Lannister that Aegon lives, and there is simply no plausible motive for Varys to have lied to a dying man.

4) Regardless, I do think Tyrion will end up in the Vale, somehow. The Vale just doesn't have enough going on right now, and Tyrion has DEBTS to pay there. He did say he'd give the Vale to the Hill Tribes. He also knows Littlefinger fingered him for Bran's assassination, which eventually caused him to be locked in a sky cell.

Other than intrigue, there's not likely to be anything happening within the Vale itself.

"Paying debts" is not Tyrion's philosophy, motivation, hobby or pastime. It's simply something he says for effect. Martin's characters do not have the simplistic motivations of characters in a TV soap opera.

It was Catelyn who seized Tyrion on the suspicion that he had supplied the dagger, and brought him to the Eyrie. It was Lysa who had him imprisoned in an Eyrie sky cell and put him on trial for his life. And, as Tyrion eventually surmised, it was Joffrey who had supplied the dagger to kill Bran. Joffrey did so as a result of overhearing King Robert opine that Bran would be better off dead than live as a cripple. Catelyn, Lysa, Joffrey and Robert are all dead.

Tyrion did not say "he'd give the Vale to the Hill Tribes." He said to the mountain clans, "I will give you the Vale of Arryn. He said it to persuade mountain clans to spare his life and make them his swellswords. But he was never in any position to literally give them the Vale of Arryn! Not then. Not now. Not at any time between then and now! At most, all he meant is that he would equip them with hand weapons and mail comparable to that of the defenders of the Vale. After Tyrion ceased being Hand, the mountain clans returned to their mountains, but still have not seized the Vale! The last we hear of them is when Sansa arrives at the Eyrie and overhears a conversation that "the mountain clans were being troublesome."

Do not assume that everything a character says adhoc represents a promise that he must literally fulfill before the end of the story.

5) Tyrion's marriage to Sansa is NOT easy to nullify or pretend it never happened. Hence why Littlefinger never says "annulment," he says "after Tyrion is dead." It can only be set aside by the HIGH Septon, or something called a "council of the faith." They was married in front of some of the most important movers and shakers in Westeros. The wedding was talked about all over the Realm. While we don't know the particulars of his 'divorce' to Tysha, the marriage apparently was only known to the 2 of them and a drunk Septon. I suspect the drunk part is what allowed Tywin to know it was legally annulled and pretend it never happened. He would not leave anything to chance, and Tysha would have been hung otherwise.

A divorce is not the same as an annulment, and an annulment is not about "pretending" that the marriage never happened. There are many examples in history of very public marriages that were annulled. Neither the number of people who witness the ceremony, nor the social standing of the witnesses, has anything to do with whether the marriage can be annulled.

A divorce is a legal process whereby the marriage contract is terminated. An annulment is a legal process whereby the marriage contract is determined to have be void from the outset due to a defect, e.g., the failure of a party to willingly consent to the marriage, or the failure to consummate the marriage.

If Littlefinger said "after Tyrion is dead", it was simply because Tyrion's death was imminent! After all, he'd been sentenced to execution.

Tyrion's marriage contract to Sansa can be "undone"--the word used in the text to refer to the annulment of Tyrion's marriage to Tysha---on the grounds that it was never consummated and that, given Tyrion's status as a convicted murderer facing execution, it's unlikely that the marriage could ever be consummated.

Once the marriage contract is determined to be defective, a written declaration of annulment is issued. So forget this naïve nonsense about "the drunk part is what allowed Tywin to know it was legally annulled." Merely knowing that there exist grounds for annulment is not the same as annulment! And "legally annulled" is redundant because an annulment is, by definition, the outcome of a legal process.

Tyrion's marriage to Tysha was apparently "undone" by a drunk septon, so I don't know where you, or Tyrion, got the idea that his marriage to Sansa can only be undone "by the High Septon or a Council of Faith." In any case, septons, high or low, can be bought.

6) It sort of looks like Littlefinger's plans (though he doesn't reveal much about them) were unravelling quickly. He promised a "war of the 3 queens." My best guesses are Myrcella, Margaery, and Sansa (as Queen of the North) fighting to fill the vacuum caused by sudden death of Tommen and Cersei. If Stannis and Aegon prevail, there would then be 2 pretty major kings taking precedence over 3 queens. Also, Bram and Rickon are alive, meaning Sansa's claim to Winterfell and QotN would be highly questionable. Finally, the Kettleblacks have pretty much been neutralized by the High Septon, who were Littlefinger's perfectly placed daggers in the dark. He's not beaten, but the "turn card" has weakened his position (to use a poker term).

Show me the text where Littlefinger promised a "war of the 3 queens." A text search for "war of [the] three queens" fails. If he said anything even remotely like that, it seems that it would have been a casual prediction rather than a "promise" he intended to fulfill.

It seems unlikely that Princess Myrcella of Dorne will ever be a queen in this story, as she is just a child, betrothed to Prince Trystane, and there are no queens in Dorne, and there's no reason to expect that Tommen will die suddenly. Princess Arianne would succeed Prince Doran as ruler of Dorne. Prince Trystane would succeed Arianne.

In any case, Littlefinger's stated plan involves (1) the (imminent) succession of Harry the Heir as Lord Harrold, Defender of the Vale and Lord of the Eyrie, (2) Harrold's marriage to Sansa, and (3) rallying Harrold's bannermen to fight for Winterfell. I doubt that this plan involves the Kettleblacks.

It seems unlikely that Lady Sansa would ever become a queen unless she married a king, but who might that king be? I doubt that the Northmen would accept an outsider from the Vale as their king.

No one will question Sansa's claim to Winterfell unless and until someone with a stronger claim asserts it.

[Kushluk of Skagos]

When I first read this I thought it was a typo, nothing more.

[C0bR]

I don't see the honorable knights of the Vale jumping on a ship with an unknown Dragon and her bunch of hungry slaves and barbarians, after staying so long out of the war in which some of them actually had a reason to fight in.

In fact I don't even think she will land there. Either she somehow gets to Lannisport and the Rock or she lands straight at King's Landing, shortly after Aegon conquers it with his forces, and confronts him there.

[KingHodorTargaryen]

I don't see the honorable knights of the Vale jumping on a ship with an unknown Dragon and her bunch of hungry slaves and barbarians, after staying so long out of the war in which some of them actually had a reason to fight in.

In fact I don't even think she will land there. Either she somehow gets to Lannisport and the Rock or she lands straight at King's Landing, shortly after Aegon conquers it with his forces, and confronts him there.

They will support their lord and lady, Sweetrobin and Sansa. Lysa was the one who kept them out of the war. She is dead. Sansa will control things from now, and she will support Dany on the condition that Dany does not harm any of her family. Don't forget, she knows Tyrion as trustworthy at least to her. It would be better than Aegon marching on Jon, the new King in the North.