HERESY 50

[Harlan]

Im not sure we can draw a lot of parallels between the show and the books as the rate the show is catching up with the books it will surely overtake GRRM. Dont be surprised if both have divergent endgames. Surely the show cant be a spoiler for the books.

The show makers know how the story ends already, the book and show should have very similar coclusions.

Also, would it be so terrible if the show ended before the books did? I`ve read many books after having watched the movie which was based on the book. I don't think my having watched the movie made the book any less enjoyable.

[King Tyrion VIII]

It would be terrible to know what happens before the books are finished. It always has me wondering if Martin will write/is writing faster than he is letting on. Because without that he will get overtaken by the show.

[Balerion06]

It would be terrible to know what happens before the books are finished. It always has me wondering if Martin will write/is writing faster than he is letting on. Because without that he will get overtaken by the show.

Hasn't he said in some recent interviews that he is writing faster for fear of the show catching up?

[Efilnikufesin]

Its called dumbing down

I agree. Though it was in a way interesting to find out that Bran is the 3EC. They did ruin some mystery about finding Bloodraven; making me curious what their incentive to head beyond the Wall will be now seeing as it was originally to find the 3EC.

Though it does make me think back to a few things I had pondered before. Is Coldhands now definitely Bran's agent/escort to the cave sent and ressurected by Bran himself? As well as is Bran the last ( and I mean the very last, essentially he will live endlessly, eventually in a much worse state that BR) greenseer? With nothing to do but ponder and watch the past events attempting to change them? Has he been attempting to make changes all along (even throughout Westeros' sporadic history?)

Could he also be responsible for the building of the Wall/Storm's End/Wintefell himself, i.e. is he possibly Bran the Builder by influencing others?

[The Northern Scholar]

I agree. Though it was in a way interesting to find out that Bran is the 3EC. They did ruin some mystery about finding Bloodraven; making me curious what their incentive to head beyond the Wall will be now seeing as it was originally to find the 3EC.

Though it does make me think back to a few things I had pondered before. Is Coldhands now definitely Bran's agent/escort to the cave sent and ressurected by Bran himself? As well as is Bran the last ( and I mean the very last, essentially he will live endlessly, eventually in a much worse state that BR) greenseer? With nothing to do but ponder and watch the past events attempting to change them? Has he been attempting to make changes all along (even throughout Westeros' sporadic history?)

Could he also be responsible for the building of the Wall/Storm's End/Wintefell himself, i.e. is he possibly Bran the Builder by influencing others?

Didn't someone once suggest that everything we read was ultimately going to be Bran's recollection of the story as he sits on his weirwood throne in old, old age? Or am I making that up?

[King Tyrion VIII]

Wait, Bran is the Three Eyed Crow?

[King Tyrion VIII]

Hasn't he said in some recent interviews that he is writing faster for fear of the show catching up?

I know he's talked about how it makes him nervous, I don't remember him saying he's writing faster.

[Lady Dragon]

Gared ran from Craster's boys and suddenly he's south of the Wall and the direwolf pups are found nearby. I don't know how they all got through, but I have to assume it was at the same time. I think Martin purposely left out the details.

So it's up to us to figure out how Gared got past the Wall and how the direwolf mother and her pups did the same at presumably the same time.

Maybe Gared went through the Black Gate, but that doesn't explain the direwolves. Something happened that we haven't been told about. Unless the clues are there and we've all missed them.

:idea: Perhaps Coldhands led Gared to the Black Gate & told him how to enter & take the direwolf mother across?

Above, I was considering the (distasteful) hypothesis that the direwolf and elk (or stag or other antlered creature) had been warged, to try to account for how a person/being might have delivered them to the Starks. But in fact, your comment raises a further line of inquiry: what's up with Coldhand's elk, and the ravens that serve him? How, exactly, is he controlling or working with them? If we could sort this out, it might help us to develop alternate hypotheses for direwolf delivery.

:idea: In response to your query about Coldhands, mayhaps:

~~ Coldhands is the Night King reanimated or skinchanged by magic of the Children of the Forest or the Morrigan.

~~ The clues to his identity are that he died long ago & now seems to be a sentient Night Watch wight who doesn't recall his past.

~~ Based on his actions, Coldhands appears to serve as an intermediary agent between the realms of the fairy & men via the Black Gate of the Nightfort.

~~ The murder of ravens that accompany Coldhands relay instructions to him from Bloodraven or the Morrigan.

~~ The ravens led Coldhands to find & take Gared & the pregnant direwolf to the Black Gate.

~~ The direwolf pups were "sired" by the Old Gods by their coloring & spiritual role to match the persona of the Stark children.

~~ Coldhands told Gared the shortened Night's Watch oath to open the Black Gate.

~~ This was the original oath used when Coldhands was the Night King & would only be known currently by him.

~~ Coldhands gave Gared a piece of his elk/stag horn to kill the direwolf after it birthed the pups on the other side near Winterfell.

~~ Later, Coldhands used the ravens to find & "murder" wights when Sam & Gilly were attacked near Whitetree, led them to the Black Gate, & told Sam the original oath to open the gate.

~~ Coldhands used the ravens again to kill wights when he led Bran's group from the Black Gate to the cave & Bloodraven.

[Efilnikufesin]

Wait, Bran is the Three Eyed Crow?

According to the HBO show, yes..

[King Tyrion VIII]

According to the HBO show, yes..

Until further notice I'm going to assume it's just the show. But I can see it being true.

[Efilnikufesin]

Until further notice I'm going to assume it's just the show. But I can see it being true.

It was a bit of a theory I had, and somewhat confirmed. Though looking upon it now I feel the show ruins it by revealing it way too early. Think I may stop watching. When are we getting some D&E or another book?

[lokisnow]

According to the HBO show, yes..

I'll take it as true. The show has to simplify and clarify some things that are ambiguous in the text like the identity of the three eyed crow (or that it even has an identity, which it does in the books, but just caws in the show). Or it has to explain and clarify the two magical systems Bran stradles as a greendreamer and skin changer. Greenseer, Greendreamer, warg, skinchanger are all important distinctions, like raven and crow, wolf and direwolf, but ultimately they're of a similar aspect of magic. Explaining the nuance of the four different types of northern magicians takes a lot of time, and is offputting in a show that strives to be 'low magic' because it makes the magic seem four times what it is. I imagine there are a lot of readers who would be hardpressed to clarify the differences between the four offhand.

I think it makes sense that Bran is the three eyed crow. Bloodraven never claims to be The three eyed crow, but it's a revelation that makes perfect sense, considering how Bran is experimenting with viewing, and perhaps being "heard" in the past at the end of ADWD.

The show also says that Jojen has seen the past--specifically all the details of Robert's Rebellion--and Jojen tells Bran, "you will too," while also telling him he'll be able to control going in and out of Summer with practice.

Another detail from the show, Wargs' eyes go all white when they're warging an animal, and they're more or less unresponsive.

And Bran hears Neds voice in the trees.

[lysmonger]

You know they say in the appendix who the three eyed crow is....

[lysmonger]

You know they say in the appendix who the three eyed crow is....

[Black Crow]

You know they say in the appendix who the three eyed crow is....

It does indeed and therein lies a complication. The appendix is a handy reader's guide identifying everybody who appears or is referred to in the story so far. In ADwD Bran meeds Bryn Rivers/Blackwood who he thinks is the three-eyed-crow, addresses him as such and despite that curious response the dead man in the tree is thereafter duly referred to in text as well as conversation as the three-eyed-crow.

So is he or does Bran only think he is? The point being that at this stage both Bran and the reader have to proceed on the assumption that its so - unless you're a heretic of course.

Now as to the show we're faced with a similar problem immensely complicated by the absence of a back-story for the crow. All we've really seen so far is the crow leading him towards the Winterfell crypts. We didn't even see inside before Bran woke from his coma.

I think what's happening here is a massive simplification of the story and that essentially the dead man in the tree has been written out of the show. At the end of the day what's going to be important is that Bran becomes the greenseer in the tree. As there's no true frame of reference through his actual dreams in the book I reckon that this is another bit of dumbing down. Cut out Bloodraven and all the mystic stuff. Make Bran himself the three-eyed-crow to take him to the children and that weirwood chair and its sorted.

To us as readers its immensely important part of the story of how Bran is drawn north to become the greenseer. All that they're doing at HBO is cutting it out so as not to confuse non-readers.

Where it is significant however is not in identifying Bran as the three-eyed-crow (whether or not he turns out to be it in the book) but in confirming by his ommission that other than serving as Bran's teacher the dead man in the tree is not going to be a significant player in what's ultimately going on and that he's not the mighty sorceror manilpulating everything in sight in readiness for the great battle.

ETA: and Rickon and Osha aren't on their way to Skagos.

[EmmaoftheCanals]

Well, I know it's hard for book readers to have something you love so dearly dumbed down. Especially since the original is so complex and nuanced it makes fo 50 full thread and counting of discussion on only one geographic area ;).

But I came into the series from the show (don't stone me now ;)) and I had a really hard time following some elements while watching. It doesn't help that I am not good with faces/names and they all have long hair and beards and wear bulky furs/armor. Then I thought I was following and then I read the books and realized I hadn't understood half of what was going on (especially the Melissandre storyline!).

So I do understand them simplifying the stuff that is already complicated in the books. We had 15 (+?) pages of discussion on the distinction between warging and skinchanging and that is with the books to be able to cross-reference and so on. So I get where they're coming from (only I'd've gone the other way round, since all wargs are skinchanger and losing the subtype might be less if an offense). Though I do NOT understand why they did that monologue to Catelyn :(.

On the news part of the website they stated "warg" is germanic/scandinavian for "wolf", so that makes it clear to me that warging is skinchanging into wolves. But I think the Stark children might be special in their connection with the wolf (they are also the only ones skinchanging into dirwolves if I'm not mistaken - which is always likely).

[EmmaoftheCanals]

It would be terrible to know what happens before the books are finished. It always has me wondering if Martin will write/is writing faster than he is letting on. Because without that he will get overtaken by the show.

I think this will not happen. I think it's just easier to get stuff done if you have a clear deadline. And of course, the deadline is still waaaaay ahead of him so the pressure isn't there. The writing will go faster is there is some pressure from the show.

But besides that there's plenty of stuff that could make sure this does not happen: HBO will have to want to make 8/9/10 seasons* (for such an expensive show that is a lot I guess - I don't know how realistic it is to think that they'll cancel for this reason, despite the immense popularity). If GRRM is close to finishing aDoS, they might push back the final season for a year. Maybe release them at the same time. So you get the option of not watching the show before you finish the book.

* It will be a lot of seasons:

aGoT = 1 season

aCoK = 1 season

aSoS = 2 season

aFfC +aDwD = at least 3 seasons

WoW =probably 2 seasons

So you've got 9 seasons right there... That's a lot. There aren't a lot of shows with that many seasons nowadays. And most are 20 minute comedies. Though I don't know anything about how this all works, I feel that it is at least very uncertain they'll see it through to the end.

[Toccs]

Well the only reason it seems like "it is easier to write to a deadline" is because it is easier to justify completely dropping various subplots in order to expedite the matter. The show overtaking the books and finishing before them would be a disaster and GRRM as a good writer is surely well aware of that and will not let it happen. In my opinion this brings it down to either GRRM is completely confident that he will get the next two books out within the next couple of years or the ending that we do get will be extremely rushed purely in an effort to beat the show.

I'm inclined to give GRRM the benefit of the doubt that he will get the books out in time, we are into the endgame now and the Meereenese Knot and the Five Year Gap issues have essentially been solved and I think that they were the major factors bogging him down.

I very much doubt that the how will get 9 seasons, that just doesn't happen in TV anymore these days. Also judging by the speed at which it is moving some character's storylines will be almost caught up to the books next season.

[EmmaoftheCanals]

Well the only reason it seems like "it is easier to write to a deadline" is because it is easier to justify completely dropping various subplots in order to expedite the matter. The show overtaking the books and finishing before them would be a disaster and GRRM as a good writer is surely well aware of that and will not let it happen. In my opinion this brings it down to either GRRM is completely confident that he will get the next two books out within the next couple of years or the ending that we do get will be extremely rushed purely in an effort to beat the show.

That wasn't what I meant. I meant that in real life, many people can only preform under deadline pressure. My mother is a trainer in time management (among other things) so this has been drilled into my head. A project usually takes about as long as you give yourself the time to complete it and so on. Of course I don't know how it is to write novels on such a scale, but I notice that when I'm writing papers for example, the closer the deadline, the more efficient I write. I need deadline pressure to cut other things I'm doing (like spending a lot of time on these forums ;) ). I think GRRM will certainly not sacrifice the quality of his work for time concerns. For that he has to much integrity. But he does a lot of things at the same time and deadline pressure might cause him to postpone some of his other projects. That was sort of what I was trying to say, though I fear I'm still not making myself clear :P.

[Black Crow]

I don’t think that identifying Bran with the three-eyed-crow is a spoiler at all, but rather means that as I suggested above the three-eyed-crow and/or Bloodraven isn’t critical to the story.

If at the end of it all (the book) Bran was to be revealed as the one who has been manipulating everything from the very beginning, direwolves included, then yes it would be an enormous spoiler and by that very token inconceivable that this would be revealed now.

Instead, Jojen’s identifying Bran as the three-eyed-crow in the current episode is far more likely to be part of the slimming down (or dumbing down if you prefer) which we’ve already seen in all sorts of areas. Essentially, like Ironhand, Strong Belwas and a horde of other supporting characters, Bloodraven is being cut out and the story rationalized by assigning any important bits of his role elsewhere.

What we’re seeing, as with everything else is the inevitable effect of a lack of nuance