HERESY 50

[Sword Of Mid Afternoon]

On the whole "what did Bran see in the Heart of WInter?" I really don't think it was the future. I don't like the idea of just seeing the future like that. It has always been with vague prophecies and lots of hints and foreshadowing. Stuff you wouldn't normally jump to until it happens. Also, it seems like everything is predetermined in this world. <--I like that idea. Is everything predetermined?

I don't think Bran saw the future outright. I personally think it was a passage of lovecraftian horror. We won't ever really get a descritpion of what he saw besides vagueness.

Unless the heart of Winter is where all greendreams/prophecies originate? Like hte source of all magic. Then maybe he saw hte future.

I have to get to class now.

Bran's dreams had a strange mix of Future & Present... Jon going cold and dying, the Mountain with a helmet of black blood, and Jaimie as the hero in Golden Armor are all in the future... Yet the visions of what was occurring down the King's Road with regard to Ned/Sansa/Lady were much clolser to real-time visions...

[redriver]

Hell it could be (f)Aegon--IIRC when Tyrion first meets him, he perceives his eyes as being blue due to his blue hair tricking his mind into believing so.

No,that's impossible.Septa Lemore might be his Nissa Nissa and I couldn't countenance that! :bawl:

Let the Others take over the world..... :cool4:

But really,yes you're right.

[Tyryan Lannister]

Bran's dreams had a strange mix of Future & Present... Jon going cold and dying, the Mountain with a helmet of black blood, and Jaimie as the hero in Golden Armor are all in the future... Yet the visions of what was occurring down the King's Road with regard to Ned/Sansa/Lady were much clolser to real-time visions...

Ser Skeptic! Long time no see. Welcome back :cool4:

As to the post, agreed

[Tyryan Lannister]

No,that's impossible.Septa Lemore might be his Nissa Nissa and I couldn't countenance that! :bawl:

Let the Others take over the world..... :cool4:

But really,yes you're right.

Or Arianne

[redriver]

Bran's dreams had a strange mix of Future & Present... Jon going cold and dying, the Mountain with a helmet of black blood, and Jaimie as the hero in Golden Armor are all in the future... Yet the visions of what was occurring down the King's Road with regard to Ned/Sansa/Lady were much clolser to real-time visions...

An icebound Winterfell.Hence the Three Eyed Crows warning that Bran must fly...

....,because Winter is coming.

[redriver]

Or Arianne

Now that's a really upsetting thought.I like them both so much.I think it's their sense of humour that appeals..... :bs:

..well that's my story and I'm sticking with it.

[Hrafntýr]

I like this.The stone giant that Bran sees in his coma dream is argued about whether it's Ser Gregor or Littlefinger.

It can,and was probably designed to apply to either.The same with Dany's HOTU vision of a king with blue eyes bearing a red sword.General consensus is that this represents Stannis with some theories that it may be Jon at a future point in time.Again,I think it can be and is both.

I'm applying this type of thinking to the Horn of Winter in retrospect,which I think can have been both a comet and later, a real magical blowing Horn.The past can be as hazy and opaque as the future.

Yes! I guess I'm working with a model in which history/events repeat themselves, not precisely, but in terms of the general forces at play. And so I agree that the same prophecy may apply equally well to past, present, and future, that one should be hesitant to regard a prophecy as "completed." Even if we do, by the end of the series, feel that there is a single event to which each prophecy best corresponds, it doesn't rule out that it applies to other events in past or future. At the biggest level, we could be working with a cosmos in which events repeat themselves: the specific actors may change, but the roles and events are repeated.

[Black Crow]

This is something alluded to in the text although for the life of me I can't quote chapter and verse, and its also why in heresy we spend so much time examining what has happened in the past because we're confident that it will repeat itself in some measure at least in the future.

[Hrafntýr]

This is something alluded to in the text although for the life of me I can't quote chapter and verse, and its also why in heresy we spend so much time examining what has happened in the past because we're confident that it will repeat itself in some measure at least in the future.

And it's (one of the reasons) why I enjoy the heresy thread. I suppose that could be an example of confirmation bias at play, but that one's hard to avoid!

[brut]

I was reading the discussion following my contribution and I came across this statement.

I just want to say that I am prepared to bet money not on the fact that Mance wrote the letter, but on the fact that he put his words into it. The (non extravagant) mechanism by which he could do that is discussed in my project. Think about this: who could have sent the raven? Mance's reasons for doing so are also discussed – this is more speculative. This is the last part of the project and it relies on the understanding accumulated in the previous parts. Unfortunately the discussion can not be summarized shortly.

But neither the escape of "Arya", nor the manipulation of the letter is the real accomplishment of Mance, Rowan, Holly, Myrtle, Willow, Squirrel and Frenya in Winterfell. A fabulous trick has been done under everyone's nose. This took me a while to understand and answers Black Crow's query completely, in my opinion.

It's unlikely since Mance said specifically where he crossed the Wall: at Longbarrow, not far from Eastwatch. No need to mention that if he wanted to hide how he crossed. It's even an interesting detail, that I also discussed in my project.

Bran Vras is back, people! Sound horns and pop your mead! Welcome back! :cheers:

[Black Crow]

Bran Vras is back, people! Sound horns and pop your mead! Welcome back! :cheers:

Good aint it. He says it's only going to be the occasional visit but I'm sure he won't be able to help himself. Salut!

[Lady Arya's Song]

Bran Vras

There arn't even words for how marvelous my husband and I think your analysis of this series is!

My husband drives 3 hours daily to and from work so he listens to Martin via audio books. I hope you do not mind but I printed off your complete The Winterfell Huis Clos. Every evening I pick one part and read it to him after dinner. Just awesome insights and theories and I just wanted to say thank you...probably hundreds of folks who read your posts and never get a chance to write a thank you..I am delighted to be able to do so for my household.

To everyone else who regularly posts, I lurk and read your heresy thread and I love all the ideas. Thanks everyone. you are what makes this forum a delight

[Pj Fallon]

Long time lurker here.

Is bloodraven an old god?

Dragons not being to fly beyond the wall could be a good reason why the targs never conquered the wildlings.

[Lady Arya's Song]

I really love that GRRM has written this series incorporating norse, celtic myths, and also Judaism, christianity...so many ideas from so many religions.

I am happy to see Redriver and Hrafntyr discussing the fact that various prophecies in the books can be generational and also can refer to two or more characters. This is what I have been seeing the entire time I have read this series. This is very hebraic as well..what I mean is ..when I read the Bible with hebraic eyes..its generational..the same thing happens over and over..the past is the future is the present..I think George Martin has also used his idea in his series. Its not greek..not linear thinking but more wheel of time..idea.. the end of the story is really the beginning of the story..

[Lady Dragon]

Gared ran from Craster's boys and suddenly he's south of the Wall and the direwolf pups are found nearby. I don't know how they all got through, but I have to assume it was at the same time. I think Martin purposely left out the details.

So it's up to us to figure out how Gared got past the Wall and how the direwolf mother and her pups did the same at presumably the same time.

Maybe Gared went through the Black Gate, but that doesn't explain the direwolves. Something happened that we haven't been told about. Unless the clues are there and we've all missed them.

:idea: Perhaps Coldhands led Gared to the Black Gate & told him how to enter & take the direwolf mother across?

[Hrafntýr]

:idea: Perhaps Coldhands led Gared to the Black Gate & told him how to enter & take the direwolf mother across?

Above, I was considering the (distasteful) hypothesis that the direwolf and elk (or stag or other antlered creature) had been warged, to try to account for how a person/being might have delivered them to the Starks. But in fact, your comment raises a further line of inquiry: what's up with Coldhand's elk, and the ravens that serve him? How, exactly, is he controlling or working with them? If we could sort this out, it might help us to develop alternate hypotheses for direwolf delivery.

[redriver]

Bran Vras

There arn't even words for how marvelous my husband and I think your analysis of this series is!

My husband drives 3 hours daily to and from work so he listens to Martin via audio books. I hope you do not mind but I printed off your complete The Winterfell Huis Clos. Every evening I pick one part and read it to him after dinner. Just awesome insights and theories and I just wanted to say thank you...probably hundreds of folks who read your posts and never get a chance to write a thank you..I am delighted to be able to do so for my household.

To everyone else who regularly posts, I lurk and read your heresy thread and I love all the ideas. Thanks everyone. you are what makes this forum a delight

I don't think he'll mind me mentioning it,but since I posted a link to the Huis Clos, Bran Vas has had visitors from all over the world to his site,including,according to his server ,"one dedicated visitor from the Vatican".We'd better mind our P's and Q's!!!!

[Black Crow]

Above, I was considering the (distasteful) hypothesis that the direwolf and elk (or stag or other antlered creature) had been warged, to try to account for how a person/being might have delivered them to the Starks. But in fact, your comment raises a further line of inquiry: what's up with Coldhand's elk, and the ravens that serve him? How, exactly, is he controlling or working with them? If we could sort this out, it might help us to develop alternate hypotheses for direwolf delivery.

Again I have to agree on this. I don't think that Coldhands was actively controlling the elk or the crows. While its obviously not normal to ride elk, reindeer can be domesticated to draw sledges and I had the impression that Coldhands' elk was likewise domesticated rather than being warged or otherwise controlled. Similarly I had the impression the crows/ravens were acting independently. Warging a single crow is one thing, a whole murder of them is quite another. Hence another link in the theory that the crows are players in their own right.

And with that to bed. Good night one and all.

[Black Crow]

I don't think he'll mind me mentioning it,but since I posted a link to the Huis Clos, Bran Vas has had visitors from all over the world to his site,including,according to his server ,"one dedicated visitor from the Vatican".We'd better mind our P's and Q's!!!!

Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!

[wolfmaid7]

Above, I was considering the (distasteful) hypothesis that the direwolf and elk (or stag or other antlered creature) had been warged, to try to account for how a person/being might have delivered them to the Starks. But in fact, your comment raises a further line of inquiry: what's up with Coldhand's elk, and the ravens that serve him? How, exactly, is he controlling or working with them? If we could sort this out, it might help us to develop alternate hypotheses for direwolf delivery.

I like this train of thought because i believe these animals are getting messages of their own. In ADWD Jon was seeing thorough Ghosts eyes again.From Ghost point of view the Moon was speaking to him.I'm just saying that the moon might just be the moon to us,but from their point of view its something else to be revered.Several times Jon caught Ghost looking up at the Moon as if he were listening to or for something.I'll find those quotes later,but what if Mama direwolf received a message in like fashion telling her to go south. It is clear someone let her pass my problem with it being Gared or any person accompanying her is how could a person with a direwolf go unnoticed.Unless we are entertaining the thought that the person was compelled and Mama direwolf was glamoured :dunno: