HERESY 50

[Hrafntýr]

Again I have to agree on this. I don't think that Coldhands was actively controlling the elk or the crows. While its obviously not normal to ride elk, reindeer can be domesticated to draw sledges and I had the impression that Coldhands' elk was likewise domesticated rather than being warged or otherwise controlled. Similarly I had the impression the crows/ravens were acting independently. Warging a single crow is one thing, a whole murder of them is quite another. Hence another link in the theory that the crows are players in their own right.

And with that to bed. Good night one and all.

So, I also don't think that the elk and ravens with Coldhands were warged, but they are clearly in cahoots, particularly the ravens (and yes, I, too, think of the ravens as agents, though they may be allied with or even serving some other group, possibly the CotF), e.g. when they tear to pieces the wights that are attacking Sam and Gilly. And although the elk does seem domesticated, the only people we know of (I think) who ride elks are the Green Men on the Isle of Faces (if I remember correctly, though does anyone remember, I thought there was some other mention, during conversation among the BwoB, of some other figure riding an elk, down around Maidenpool, or maybe it was in the tales of Crackclaw Point told to Brienne and Pod? Is this ringing a bell with anyone?). Is any animal potentially moved to offer itself in service of certain compelling persons/beings? Just as CH's elk was seen by Bran as a "friend," could the direwolf simply have been a "friend" of the Starks, too? But why would she need to be sacrificed, then?

[brut]

Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!

Oh no, did someone just say that they did not expect the Spanish Inquisition?

[Hrafntýr]

I like this train of thought because i believe these animals are getting messages of their own. In ADWD Jon was seeing thorough Ghosts eyes again.From Ghost point of view the Moon was speaking to him.I'm just saying that the moon might just be the moon to us,but from their point of view its something else to be revered.Several times Jon caught Ghost looking up at the Moon as if he were listening to or for something.I'll find those quotes later,but what if Mama direwolf received a message in like fashion telling her to go south. It is clear someone let her pass my problem with it being Gared or any person accompanying her is how could a person with a direwolf go unnoticed.Unless we are entertaining the thought that the person was compelled and Mama direwolf was glamoured :dunno:

We might be justified in seeing a sun/moon dichotomy or complementarity that homologizes to the fire/ice one. I'm definitely open to seeing animals as agents in this series, but like you, I have a hard time figuring out the pairing of direwolf and Gared in this "delivery" and also figuring out the circumstances of her death, which seem far, far too perfect to be coincidence. I like "glamouring" explanations about as much as warging ones, which is to say, not much!

[DrunkSister]

Just throwing things at the wall to see what sticks...

Asoiaf is written by a human and has a human readership so we tend to give a lot more significance to human characters, but a shewolf could have been getting her own messages from the gods and act on her own about them? Her children often do?

So, if we go by this, you would only need Coldhands to open the passage for her, or (because we are talking about an old-god gate) she might have been let through regardless.

Gared climbs up the Wall independently, but her timing is guided by those who know what he is doing. The Others were just a bunch of teenagers having a bit of fun and CoTF have decided to use that to return magic South of the Wall.

:dunno:

[Hrafntýr]

Just throwing things at the wall to see what sticks...

Asoiaf is written by a human and has a human readership so we tend to give a lot more significance to human characters, but a shewolf could have been getting her own messages from the gods and act on her own about them? Her children often do?

So, if we go by this, you would only need Coldhands to open the passage for her, or (because we are talking about an old-god gate) she might have been let through regardless.

Well, Coldhands can't open the passage (he needed Sam to do that before, to fetch Bran), hence the speculations about Gared.

Gared climbs up the Wall independently, but her timing is guided by those who know what he is doing. The Others were just a bunch of teenagers having a bit of fun and CoTF have decided to use that to return magic South of the Wall.

:dunno:

Like Love this!

[nanother]

I kind of assumed that Coldhands' ravens are some of Bloodraven's, assigned to CH to help him with this job. How BR communicates with his ravens, that's another question. I suspect it has to do with the spirits of the singers in them, rather than skinchanging into all of them all the time. If he did that, it wouldn't be necessary for them to return to him. Do we see him talking to them (or vice versa), though? I definitely remember them talking to CH.

Now, how those spirits ended up in the ravens, that's yet another question.

Not sure about the elk.

[wolfmaid7]

Well, Coldhands can't open the passage (he needed Sam to do that before, to fetch Bran), hence the speculations about Gared.

Like Love this!

Just throwing things at the wall to see what sticks...

Asoiaf is written by a human and has a human readership so we tend to give a lot more significance to human characters, but a shewolf could have been getting her own messages from the gods and act on her own about them? Her children often do?

So, if we go by this, you would only need Coldhands to open the passage for her, or (because we are talking about an old-god gate) she might have been let through regardless.

Gared climbs up the Wall independently, but her timing is guided by those who know what he is doing. The Others were just a bunch of teenagers having a bit of fun and CoTF have decided to use that to return magic South of the Wall.

:dunno:

True true on that part except coldhands as Hafnir said needed Sam to open.

We might be justified in seeing a sun/moon dichotomy or complementarity that homologizes to the fire/ice one. I'm definitely open to seeing animals as agents in this series, but like you, I have a hard time figuring out the pairing of direwolf and Gared in this "delivery" and also figuring out the circumstances of her death, which seem far, far too perfect to be coincidence. I like "glamouring" explanations about as much as warging ones, which is to say, not much!

Truly, who is to say that "the gods" i used this loosely are not giving their own messages to the Direwolves.I am almost convinced that she walked up to the gate herself. On approach the black gate asks " who are you" we assume that it will only open for a NW member,what if that's not true.So the NW member recites apart of the oath that's his password to enter. Mama direwolf probably howled or something and that was her password to enter.

What i find suspicious is the similarity of speaking something to cause a door to open between the BG and the door to the House of B&W and again the moon. The door to the house of the undying is one part ebony ( used in magic for protection and amplifying power) and the other part Weirwood ( which channels)./conduit

"At the top she found a set of carved wooden doors twelve feet high. The left-hand door was made of weirwood pale as bone, the right of gleaming ebony. In their center was a carved moon face; ebony on the weirwood side, weirwood on the ebony. The look of it reminded her somehow of the heart tree in the godswood at Winterfell. The doors are watching me, she thought. She pushed upon both doors at once with the flat of her gloved hands, but neither one would budge. Locked and barred.

“Let me in, you stupid,” she said. “I crossed the narrow sea.” She made a fist and pounded. “Jaqen told me to come. I have the iron coin.” She pulled it from her pouch and held it up. “See? Valar morghulis.”

The doors made no reply, except to open.

They opened inward all in silence, with no human hand to move them"(Arya,AFFC).

Now that aint no coinky dink.

[Hrafntýr]

Now that aint no coinky dink.

I'm in general agreement that (1) we shouldn't assume that the Black Gate opens only for the Night's Watch and (2) that animals might be independent or semi-independent agents. What I said seemed too perfect to be a coincidence was the manner of the lady direwolf's death, at just the right time and place (though that she has a litter of 6, of the correct sexes, is also uncanny). Even if it were a self-sacrifice, how did she manage to arrange to get an antler in the throat on the path between Winterfell and the place where Gared was executed?

[Efilnikufesin]

Haven't been reading heresy as much due to work, but while watching the 2nd episode 3rd season beginning, though they called the 3EC a "raven" it is stated that Bran cannot shoot it because it is him. Somewhat reinforcing my theory that Bran himself is the 3EC.

[wolfmaid7]

Haven't been reading heresy as much due to work, but while watching the 2nd episode 3rd season beginning, though they called the 3EC a "raven" it is stated that Bran cannot shoot it because it is him. Somewhat reinforcing my theory that Bran himself is the 3EC.

Well that's it, we have ourselves proof that some sought of time travelling stuff is going on.I think Jon seeing Bran in the tree with three eyes adds more credence to it.

[Efilnikufesin]

Plus as it seems in the HBO series later in the show, it is Jojen telling him so.

Edit: Apologies for spoilers, just couldn't keep it silent.

Edit 2: One thing I have been pondering is if our Bran in the stories is our "Bran the builder."

[Frey family reunion]

The show sure did make Jojen appear a little sinister...

[Tyryan Lannister]

The show sure did make Jojen appear a little sinister...

Yeah... and also, first five minutes and we're already into Heresy territory--this one is a must see, and although not necessarily canon, it does go along with some Heretical notions vis-a-vis the 3EC (or the Three Eyed Raven as the show mistakenly calls it)

More show analysis to come, with a spoiler tagged synopsis

[Harlan]

I'm in general agreement that (1) we shouldn't assume that the Black Gate opens only for the Night's Watch and (2) that animals might be independent or semi-independent agents. What I said seemed too perfect to be a coincidence was the manner of the lady direwolf's death, at just the right time and place (though that she has a litter of 6, of the correct sexes, is also uncanny). Even if it were a self-sacrifice, how did she manage to arrange to get an antler in the throat on the path between Winterfell and the place where Gared was executed?

I don't think the direwolfs death and pressence south of the wall has an explanation. In order for someone to orchestrate the manner of the direwolfs death, (1) they would have to find a Pregnant female direwolf north of the wall, (2)somehow determine that she would have 6 healthy pups of appropriate gender and one of which was albino. (3)Get it about 300-500 miles south of it's natural habbitat by (4) taking it through, over, or around the largest structure in ASoIaF. (5) Arrange for the Starks to be nearby when the direwolf is on the verge of giving birth. (6)Shove an antler down the direwolf's throat in order to kill it but at just the precise moment that she would still give birth.

None of those things would be easy, even if the Direwolf was willing.

Plus as it seems in the HBO series later in the show, it is Jojen telling him so.

Edit: Apologies for spoilers, just couldn't keep it silent.

Edit 2: One thing I have been pondering is if our Bran in the stories is our "Bran the builder."

The only thing I don't like about the Bran = 3EC theory is that I hate timetravel.

How could our Bran be "bran the builder"?

[Tyryan Lannister]

So Episode 2: Dark Wings, Dark Words has some good Heretical goodies, namely Jojen, warging (apparently "skinchanging" isn't a thing, only warging in TV land).

And Queen of Thorns.

And Thoros.

And poor, poor Theon.

[Black Crow]

The Others were just a bunch of teenagers having a bit of fun and CoTF have decided to use that to return magic South of the Wall.

Well funnily enough, looking at their behaviour in the AGoT prologue and bearing in mind what Gilly's mother says about their being Craster's sons, it has occurred to me before that the "teenagers" bit may not be so very far off the mark. If we take it as true that they are indeed Craster's sons given up and re-shaped/formed by magic into white walkers/Ice made flesh, they're hardly going to be mature, rounded individuals, they are going to behave like the children they really are; curious, not inherently evil, but capricious and occassionally cruel.

[Toccs]

Have you seen the latest episode of Doctor Who yet Black Crow? There is nothing overtly related to A Song of Ice and Fire or heresy in the way the christmas special was, but the inclusion of the Sun Singers and their purpose and just what they were singing to did get me thinking about what the Moonsingers might be about, especially with all the symbolism of the moon talking to people/animals.

[Black Crow]

I have indeed. As you say the story wasn't an obvious homage to ASoIF in the way that the christmas special was, and I don't think it was intended to be either, but it was on the other hand an interesting take on the old powers awakening business.

[King Tyrion VIII]

Wait, is there an update on Martin's TWOW progress?

[King Tyrion VIII]

this post seems pretty off topic, but in short he is asked how many pages he has finished and he says about 1/4. He also says he is making better progress than on other books. I assume then that he means he has 1/4 fully done, that does not preclude other pages that are done, but not fully done with edits rereads etc. That interpretation makes sense of both statements.

Yeah and he said that TWOW and ADOS will both be 1500 MS pages. So he has 375 nearly finished. That's 175 additional pages now since ADWD in not much actual writing time, I would assume. Plus there could be any number of pages in rough draft form that he didn't mention.

So 375 MS pages down, 1,125 to go.