HERESY 50

[Bran Vras]

I was just reading some of BranVras's blog and came across the idea that Bittersteel is also still alive and is still playing out the rivalry. Has this possibility ever been discussed before?

I can't get it to copy, but it's #10 near the bottom:

http://branvras.free...os/Animals.html

Since my stuff is brought up here, allow me to step in. I'll return to Bittersteel in a moment.

Thank you Brut for the welcome, and others for the kind words, especially Lady's Arya's song.

To those who wondered about my return to the board: Writing the Huis Clos kept me awake late at night too many times. I need to get away from Martin's books. I might, and will, come back occasionally for friends.

The more I dug, the more I found the whole Winterfell sub-story original and subtle. Visibly it has been prepared for a long time by Martin. For all my efforts, much remains to be explained and many of my suggestions are uncertain. It would be nice to be shown my errors by critical readers of my stuff, and even nicer to see my suggestions confirmed by additional observations. I you read me, and disagreed, fine, but I am interested in knowing why.

To return to the query. It's possible to read the Winterfell chapters as another version of the Mystery Knight: Bloodraven and Bittersteel playing their game through their agents. What is at stakes, in my opinion, is the Winterfell godswood.

It's a speculative reading of the story. But consider the cultural proximity of the Ryswells and the Brackens, including the golden horseheads on Rodrik Ryswell's and Barbrey Dustin's personal banners (Gold on the banner, like the Fiddler. Gold is untypical in the north). Consider that in the middle of the Winterfell story we learn about the Raventree godswood poisoned by the Brackens. Consider that the Winterfell godswood seems to be faltering along the story (conceding to Winter). Follow the ravens and horses in Winterfell after the wedding, and many other details that you will find in my project (see the Overseeing Widow, the Animals Powers, and the Congresses of Skulls).

Bittersteel is certainly not alive in a conventional sense (Bloodraven isn't quite either). But it is clear that he continues to impose his will from the grave (the legendary discipline of the Golden Company, a century after its founding despite suffering failure after failure). So it is tempting to the see the situation of both old rivals as symmetric, and still playing some sort of Cyvasse game. However, it was not the primary subject of my investigation. But, typically, this is the kind of suggestion I made along the way on which I would like to have feedback.

[Hrafntýr]

Agreed, it was likely a dagger. I've only got book 3 to hand and Bran says the elks sometimes have antlers. When Bran meets CH I don't remember whether the elk has any antlers, maybe it doesn't seem strange to Bran that he doesn't because he's been told not all elk do anyway. It just seems to link the events up more.Even if it wasn't CHs elks antler, it seems like a pointer to CH (kinda backing up all the other Gared stuff)

I'm afraid that I still don't see how the passage clearly suggests a dagger. I agree that it's possible, but I have a hard time understanding how what Ned yanks from the throat of the direwolf, "A foot of shattered antler, tines snapped off, all wet with blood" indicates an antler knife. For those who aren't too squeamish, I provide a link to a hunting page I found with images of an elk that had been walking around for a year or two with another elk's antler embedded in its skull, from a prior fight with another elk: http://trophy-huntin...ith-antler.html At the least, it shows that antler tines do break off when embedded in the body of an elk's foe.

I would not be inclined to think that the creature that killed the direwolf was CH's elk. Heck, we don't even know it's an elk at all. It's worth recalling that those who hear about the find interpret it darkly in the terms of Westerosi sigils: an indication of the Stark direwolf being destroyed by the Baratheon stag (as opposed to elk, though there are elk stags, of course. But I think that where CH's elk is relevant to the discussion is because it is an example of an animal that seems to be offering its services to whomever CH serves without being either a wight or necessarily directed by a skinchanger (though we don't know about the latter). It suggests that animals could be willing participants in the unfolding events, which could then speak to the question of (1) how the direwolf made her way to Winterfell and (2) how she managed to die right then and there at the perfect time (probably no more than a day or two before her corpse and pups were discovered...not sure how long it takes maggots to appear on a corpse in the particular climate conditions around Winterfell, but she had maggots crawling in her eyes, and smelled faintly as she began to decay).

[Kallb123]

I would not be inclined to think that the creature that killed the direwolf was CH's elk. Heck, we don't even know it's an elk at all. It's worth recalling that those who hear about the find interpret it darkly in the terms of Westerosi sigils: an indication of the Stark direwolf being destroyed by the Baratheon stag (as opposed to elk, though there are elk stags, of course. But I think that where CH's elk is relevant to the discussion is because it is an example of an animal that seems to be offering its services to whomever CH serves without being either a wight or necessarily directed by a skinchanger (though we don't know about the latter). It suggests that animals could be willing participants in the unfolding events, which could then speak to the question of (1) how the direwolf made her way to Winterfell and (2) how she managed to die right then and there at the perfect time (probably no more than a day or two before her corpse and pups were discovered...not sure how long it takes maggots to appear on a corpse in the particular climate conditions around Winterfell, but she had maggots crawling in her eyes, and smelled faintly as she began to decay).

It's this precise timing that says to me that the wolf didn't just wonder off and get stabbed by a stag. If Gared did bring her down to ~Winterfell then surely he killed her too. Either he went hunting for stag to chop the antlers off (could he do this in his condition?) or CH had provided him with the antler/dagger.

I assume Bran/Sam would mention the elk only having 1 antler, but maybe CH took them both off so now it just looks like a antler-less elk. What was the other antler used for?

If you look at the antler in the scene in the show and compare that to stags and elks, I have to say it looks far more elky.

I'm aware this connections pretty loose but we're already connecting Gared-Direwolf-CH-CB, I'm not sure making it CH's elks antler makes much difference except what happened to the other antler?

[Hrafntýr]

If you look at the antler in the scene in the show and compare that to stags and elks, I have to say it looks far more elky.

Well, if we're using the show as evidence, then the first episode makes some changes and makes explicit that the stag killed the direwolf. The Stark party finds the eviscerated corpse of the stag first, and it's shown with its antler broken off. Then it finds the corpse of the direwolf, with said antler in its throat.

But that does nothing to explain the fortuitous timing. I am disinclined to think that Gared could have killed an unwilling direwolf with an antler, which was why I unhappily considered skinchanging as a possibility (complicated scenario of first direwolf (with accompanying Gared?) and then stag being possessed?), as well as the possibility that animals were acting as agents of some other actors (CotF, WWs ??).

[Kallb123]

Well, if we're using the show as evidence, then the first episode makes some changes and makes explicit that the stag killed the direwolf. The Stark party finds the eviscerated corpse of the stag first, and it's shown with its antler broken off. Then it finds the corpse of the direwolf, with said antler in its throat.

But that does nothing to explain the fortuitous timing. I am disinclined to think that Gared could have killed an unwilling direwolf with an antler, which was why I unhappily considered skinchanging as a possibility (complicated scenario of first direwolf (with accompanying Gared?) and then stag being possessed?), as well as the possibility that animals were acting as agents of some other actors (CotF, WWs ??).

My apologies. I totally forgot about the stag corpse, I just remembered the antler.

Why would the direwolf be unwilling? It's followed Gared this far. Maybe it was of aware of sacrifice it must make? Something like Jojen following Bran all the way up north to be turned into food (if that was true, I remember the discussion in early heresies but can't remember the decision).

[redriver]

Have we considered that this mother direwolf was never north of the Wall at all?

[Hrafntýr]

Have we considered that this mother direwolf was never north of the Wall at all?

Given that Theon says, "There's not been a direwolf sighted south of the Wall in two hundred years," I believe we're supposed to see this as anomalous. Even if she really didn't come from the other side of the Wall, there'd need to be an equally unusual explanation for how she was living south of the Wall.

[brut]

...To return to the query. It's possible to read the Winterfell chapters as another version of the Mystery Knight: Bloodraven and Bittersteel playing their game through their agents. What is at stakes, in my opinion, is the Winterfell godswood.

It's a speculative reading of the story. But consider the cultural proximity of the Ryswells and the Brackens, including the golden horseheads on Rodrik Ryswell's and Barbrey Dustin's personal banners (Gold on the banner, like the Fiddler. Gold is untypical in the north). Consider that in the middle of the Winterfell story we learn about the Raventree godswood poisoned by the Brackens. Consider that the Winterfell godswood seems to be faltering along the story (conceding to Winter). Follow the ravens and horses in Winterfell after the wedding, and many other details that you will find in my project (see the Overseeing Widow, the Animals Powers, and the Congresses of Skulls).

Bittersteel is certainly not alive in a conventional sense (Bloodraven isn't quite either). But it is clear that he continues to impose his will from the grave (the legendary discipline of the Golden Company, a century after its founding despite suffering failure after failure). So it is tempting to the see the situation of both old rivals as symmetric, and still playing some sort of Cyvasse game. However, it was not the primary subject of my investigation. But, typically, this is the kind of suggestion I made along the way on which I would like to have feedback.

Admittedly, I have not finished peeking behind the closed doors of Winterfell, but would like to elaborate on one suspicion that appeared on the recent Heresy threads. Following our linkage of Aegon to the Storm God, it is worth mentioning that not only Aegon, but also Bittersteel and his Golden Company may be linked to the Storm. One tidbit is that during regrouping of forces and counter attack at Redgrass Fields, Bittersteel is all but winning the battle against Bloodraven until the joint force of Dorne and Stormlords headed by Baelor Breakspear take the day. So, Golden Company moving in against Storms End looks more and more like an act of revenge of the Storm God.

[Frey family reunion]

I think the primary importance of the scene with the antler lies in it's symbolism. The reason I cited the passage from the Prose Edda was to show how neatly this scene fit with the backstory of the series. Specifically, Freyj is a Norse god of summer. He is sitting in his hall when he spies a femal giantess from up north. Smitten with the giantess he asks his servant to court her for him. The servant agrees but only if Freyj gives him Freyj's magic sword. Freyj agrees and Freyj is rewarded with the giantess but loses his sword in the process. Later Freyj is confronted by another giant and has to slay him with a deer horn because of his lack of a sword. Later during Ragnorak, Freyj's sorely regrets the absence of his magic sword.

With respect to the series we could have Aegon (god of summer) looks up from his hall (dragonstone) to the land of Westeros (the female giant he covets). To help truly conquer these lands he needs help from the southern lords such as the Tyrells, or Baratheons or the Maesters or the Faith (the servants fo the summer god). In exchange the Targaryens lose their magic sword (the dragons) but obtain Westeros (and maybe more specifically the north). However the Targaryens are now without their dragons, and are in reliance on the armies provided by their southern lords (the antler represents the Baratheons). The exchange of weapons is one the Targaryens ultimately regret (see Robert's rebellion).

[Moonfox]

I still can't believe they write Strong Belwas out of the show. He would have given a much needed comic relief for the series.

Its not too late.. He may be a late-comer in another season like the reeds were. Someone needs to be poisioned later and I dont see any of Dany's current company eating a whole bowl of spiced locusts.

[Black Crow]

Just as an addendum to my last; the ordeal is pretty clearly alluded to in Bran's heart of winter vision when he sees the impaled dreamers below.

And further to that we have Damphair's drowned men, some of whom never make it, and in the light of what we've been discussing about certain Red priests on the one hand and Craster's boys on the other, which gives us three more examples of initiates going through ordeals and covers the earth and water and ice and fire.

I doubt is GRRM is going to complicate things by adhering closely to the triple death, but there's a very definite theme of near death ordeal and renewal.

[Black Crow]

Its not too late.. He may be a late-comer in another season like the reeds were. Someone needs to be poisioned later and I dont see any of Dany's current company eating a whole bowl of spiced locusts.

Not necessarily, the way the show is being cut it could just as easily be another anonymous assassin with a knife and a mystery as to who hired him

[Iceborn]

And further to that we have Damphair's drowned men, some of whom never make it, and in the light of what we've been discussing about certain Red priests on the one hand and Craster's boys on the other, which gives us three more examples of initiates going through ordeals and covers the earth and water and ice and fire.

I doubt is GRRM is going to complicate things by adhering closely to the triple death, but there's a very definite theme of near death ordeal and renewal.

Damphair is famed for never loosing a man to the sea, this doesn't sound like a risky ordeal.

[Black Crow]

Damphair is famed for never loosing a man to the sea, this doesn't sound like a risky ordeal.

Perfectly true, but the very fact that he's renowned for it suggests that other practitioners aren't always so successful.

[Black Crow]

I think the primary importance of the scene with the antler lies in it's symbolism. The reason I cited the passage from the Prose Edda was to show how neatly this scene fit with the backstory of the series. Specifically, Freyj is a Norse god of summer. He is sitting in his hall when he spies a femal giantess from up north. Smitten with the giantess he asks his servant to court her for him. The servant agrees but only if Freyj gives him Freyj's magic sword. Freyj agrees and Freyj is rewarded with the giantess but loses his sword in the process. Later Freyj is confronted by another giant and has to slay him with a deer horn because of his lack of a sword. Later during Ragnorak, Freyj's sorely regrets the absence of his magic sword.

With respect to the series we could have Aegon (god of summer) looks up from his hall (dragonstone) to the land of Westeros (the female giant he covets). To help truly conquer these lands he needs help from the southern lords such as the Tyrells, or Baratheons or the Maesters or the Faith (the servants fo the summer god). In exchange the Targaryens lose their magic sword (the dragons) but obtain Westeros (and maybe more specifically the north). However the Targaryens are now without their dragons, and are in reliance on the armies provided by their southern lords (the antler represents the Baratheons). The exchange of weapons is one the Targaryens ultimately regret (see Robert's rebellion).

I'm not convinced that GRRM thought this through consciously but I do like it.

[Macho Hand of the King]

Is there some place these are all consolidated? I am browsing on a phone while at work and this is definitely "big screen reading".

[wolfmaid7]

Well, if we're using the show as evidence, then the first episode makes some changes and makes explicit that the stag killed the direwolf. The Stark party finds the eviscerated corpse of the stag first, and it's shown with its antler broken off. Then it finds the corpse of the direwolf, with said antler in its throat.

But that does nothing to explain the fortuitous timing. I am disinclined to think that Gared could have killed an unwilling direwolf with an antler, which was why I unhappily considered skinchanging as a possibility (complicated scenario of first direwolf (with accompanying Gared?) and then stag being possessed?), as well as the possibility that animals were acting as agents of some other actors (CotF, WWs ??).

i'm inclined to think that Mama D went willingly as a sacrifice. I still hate the Skinchanging thing because i would think that wouldn't be cool for the pups,there would most likely be some aggravation there.I mean even though they were not yet born,altogether wouldn't that be 7 minds that this skinchanger would have to contend with? I'm still of the belief that she was "told to go" and she followed.Like you i just can't seem to see how Gared would do this unseen and escape unscathed.

I mean the Skinchanger would have to stay in Mama D and possibly the Stag while they were getting killed.While the scene is really perfect i just can't see Gared being involved too much minds and pain to undergo.Or maybe i'm over thinking it.

[alienarea]

Suggestion: the CotF didn't practice sacrifice to the weirwoods until the pact with the First Men. The First Men practiced human sacrifice in front of a weirwood (at Winterfell?) by chance. This lead to a change in the "weirnet" and the seasons going off cycle. And is why the CotF need Bloodraven and now Bran: by chance the First Men alienated (in lack of a better term) the weirwoods from the CotF. Did this lead to the weirwoods creating the Others because of the First Men sacrifice (if the first sacrifice occured at Winterfell that could be a source for both "there must always be a Stark in Winterfell" and the Starks' supposed link to the Others)? And Melisandre would on theory be right in burning the weirwoods explaining GRRM's statemgnt she is the most misunderstood character.

[Little Wing]

Ah, not able to keep up, but just popped by to share this, since you guys liked the last one :D

[brut]

Little Wing, I'm starting to suspect you are behind this grand conspiracy of mocking the TV on Facebook :)