HERESY 50

[ophie]

So, since GRRM has said that the source of the season irregularities is magical and the Citadel is apparently actively creating a world without magic, has there been a Heretical discussion of the maesters and their role or influence on the imbalance?

GRRM: In the case of fantasy, of course, it’s a little different. The most conspicuous aspect of the world of Westeros in The Song of Ice and Fire is the nature of the seasons, the long and random nature of the seasons. I have gotten a number of fan letters over the years from readers who are trying to figure out the reason for why the seasons are the way they are. They develop lengthy theories: perhaps it’s a multiple-star system, and what the axial tilt is, but I have to say, “Nice try, guys, but you’re thinking in the wrong direction.” This is a fantasy series. I am going to explain it all eventually, but it’s going to be a fantasy explanation. It’s not going to be a science-fiction explanation.

WT: In a fantasy you have to have a supernatural or mythic core to the story, rather than a scientific one.

GRRM: Right. Yes. Exactly.

http://weirdtalesmagazine.com/2007/05/24/george-rr-martin-on-magic-vs-science/

[Little Wing]

She may well have created the first generation (whoever she is) but I wonder whether the "gave her his seed" might not have been interpreted too literally or rather intimately. In other words rather than engaging in sexual congress he quite literally gave her his seed; his son. The story goes on that when he was overthrown it was found that he and his people had been sacrificing to the Others. We've taken this before as giving up their sons a la Craster so there's no reason why he shouldn't have done the same.

Similarly, although Old Nan also speaks of Wildling women lying with the Others to produce terrible half-human children, we now know that she isn't to be relied on (the Others are not dead...) so the reality could well be that they too were giving up their sons to become white walkers in return for protection or whatever.

Yeah, the dual interpretation of "gave her his seed" is so GRRM... Like dragon can be the literal animal and a Targ and so on. It certainly works.

[Black Crow]

Quite possibly, however, why didn't the North respond as it seems to be doing now in Aegon's conquest?

The dark eyed youth seen in Bran's weirwood vision was making arrows of weirwood for a bit of dragon-slaying.

We don't yet know why he didn't use them, but the obvious (and very big) difference this time around is that Winter is coming.

[Black Crow]

Yeah, the dual interpretation of "gave her his seed" is so GRRM... Like dragon can be the literal animal and a Targ and so on. It certainly works.

Especially, as we've discussed before, it gives meaning to the bit in the oath about fathering no children.

[Black Crow]

Is there some place these are all consolidated? I am browsing on a phone while at work and this is definitely "big screen reading".

Sorry I missed this; if you're talking about heresy go back to the OP for Heresy 50 and then work forward because we have some useful summary essays.

[EmmaoftheCanals]

I think you're missing the point that the North and its magic is going to be equal to the dragons. Yes they appear powerful but they're going to be dead by the time this is finished.

I don't know about this.

In my mind the dragons are tied to the existence of magic in the world, so I feel if the series ended without dragons it would end without magic. And maybe that's indeed where it's going. It feels like a true end... Magic is gone, seasonal balance restored, and so on. But it would be rather sad.

Edit: This has sort of made me realize that I don't really know where the series is going to have its natural endpoint. I just don't know what the final 'goal' of the series is. In all other (slightly) similar series I've read (admittedly, that's not a lot) there's always someplace where it's going

LotR > destruction of the ring

Harry Potter > defeat of Voldemort

Hunger Games > destruction of the Capitol (I know, but my 13 year old sister insisted ;), it turned out I quite liked them )

...

but for aSoIaF I just don't know. To me it is definitely not about 'the right person sits the Iron Throne' because there isn't really an objective right person. I also don't think it is about defeating the Others, because that is too concentrated on a small part of the narrative.

Restoring of the seasonal balance makes sense as an endpoint, and I think magic would be an appropriate sacrifice.

sidenote: maybe Tyrion and Sansa's happiness in marriage is the goal. I'd like that :)

[Balerion06]

I personally dislike the theory of Ramsay being a changeling, or the Boltons as a whole being descended from the Night's King. Why does the existence of evil require a magical source? Sometimes a psychopath is simply just a psychopath.

Like a cigar. :hat:

[Little Wing]

Oh, but, the changeling crumbs are all there.... it's a really interesting speculation imo... and it's not like they're the only ones who are "evil", but I'd refrain from using that word anyway :P

[theriveryeti]

I don't know about this.

In my mind the dragons are tied to the existence of magic in the world, so I feel if the series ended without dragons it would end without magic. And maybe that's indeed where it's going. It feels like a true end... Magic is gone, seasonal balance restored, and so on. But it would be rather sad.

Edit: This has sort of made me realize that I don't really know where the series is going to have its natural endpoint. I just don't know what the final 'goal' of the series is. In all other (slightly) similar series I've read (admittedly, that's not a lot) there's always someplace where it's going

LotR > destruction of the ring

Harry Potter > defeat of Voldemort

Hunger Games > destruction of the Capitol (I know, but my 13 year old sister insisted ;), it turned out I quite liked them )

...

but for aSoIaF I just don't know. To me it is definitely not about 'the right person sits the Iron Throne' because there isn't really an objective right person. I also don't think it is about defeating the Others, because that is too concentrated on a small part of the narrative.

Restoring of the seasonal balance makes sense as an endpoint, and I think magic would be an appropriate sacrifice.

sidenote: maybe Tyrion and Sansa's happiness in marriage is the goal. I'd like that :)

GRRM has also been concentrating quite a bit on the suffering of the 'smallfolk.' Whatever happens, I think the Iron Throne might have to go away.

[Tyryan Lannister]

The Starks are dragon fodder if either Dany or Aegon recover the seven kingdoms. Dany is on the record as having the Starks down for vengeance when she returns, and I doubt that JC, Aegon or the Martells are likely to be any more forgiving.

The only way they survive is either as an independent Northern kingdom (not impossible, a fully garrisoned Moat Cailin is impregnable), if the Targaryens lose, or if Bran and the weirwoods save them.

That's from before Barry came along though--Jorah was more than willing to help further her Stark hate because of his personal history with The Ned, but Barry won't have any of it--sure, when it comes to fucking over Lannisters (and to lesser extent maybe Baratheons) Barry is right there with her, but towards the Starks... I find it hard to believe--and in fact, if Barry lives that long, if there ever were to be a falling out between Barristan and Dany, I feel it would be over the Starks.

[Tyryan Lannister]

Quite possibly, however, why didn't the North respond as it seems to be doing now in Aegon's conquest?

Because a lot of the old truths forgotten in Winterfell had already been forgotten at that time? :dunno:

[Tyryan Lannister]

So, since GRRM has said that the source of the season irregularities is magical and the Citadel is apparently actively creating a world without magic, has there been a Heretical discussion of the maesters and their role or influence on the imbalance?

The Heretical view is not that the Citadel is completely against magic, but that it is against worked magic (e.g. what the Fire lot does) but still for whatever natural magic still exists (e.g. the Children, skinchanging, greenseeing, etc.)

This is, of course, not to say that all of the Archmaesters are this way--we already have one known Archmaester who is very much in favor of worked magic, so it's quite reasonable to assume that there are some who are completely against all magic, but, as stated, the official Heretical view is that the Citadel is against only Worked Magic, not all magic.

[The Northern Scholar]

I don't know about this.

In my mind the dragons are tied to the existence of magic in the world, so I feel if the series ended without dragons it would end without magic. And maybe that's indeed where it's going. It feels like a true end... Magic is gone, seasonal balance restored, and so on. But it would be rather sad.

Edit: This has sort of made me realize that I don't really know where the series is going to have its natural endpoint. I just don't know what the final 'goal' of the series is. In all other (slightly) similar series I've read (admittedly, that's not a lot) there's always someplace where it's going

LotR > destruction of the ring

Harry Potter > defeat of Voldemort

Hunger Games > destruction of the Capitol (I know, but my 13 year old sister insisted ;), it turned out I quite liked them )

...

but for aSoIaF I just don't know. To me it is definitely not about 'the right person sits the Iron Throne' because there isn't really an objective right person. I also don't think it is about defeating the Others, because that is too concentrated on a small part of the narrative.

Restoring of the seasonal balance makes sense as an endpoint, and I think magic would be an appropriate sacrifice.

sidenote: maybe Tyrion and Sansa's happiness in marriage is the goal. I'd like that :)

I, too, wonder about the endgame. Though a world without magic could very well fit with GRRM's "bittersweet" ending.

[Black Crow]

I don't know about this.

In my mind the dragons are tied to the existence of magic in the world, so I feel if the series ended without dragons it would end without magic. And maybe that's indeed where it's going. It feels like a true end... Magic is gone, seasonal balance restored, and so on. But it would be rather sad.

As Northern Scholar has just said he has promised a bittersweet ending, and I'd still look to the Mabinogion and how the business of the Irish bringing their warriors back to life was stopped by Efnisien destroying the magic cauldron. Similarly its going to be breaking the magic that allows the raising of wights and sustains the Wall that is going to resolve this one - along with destroying the dragons.

[lokisnow]

Following on from my last in a sense, I've been giving some more thought to the creatures of Ice and Fire. In the last couple of threads we looked at the evidence showing that Mel, Moqorro and now Victarion are Fire made flesh, and how the white walkers, Craster's sons, are their mirror image in being Ice made flesh.

On a different thread Free Northman wrote something similar:

While this has an a certain logic, I'm not so sure. As I've argued before its a bit late in the day for a Great Other, whether as a single indiidual or a race of "crystaline ice creatures" to appear as the previously unseen antagonist. Given that there are so few white walkers, perhaps limited to Craster's sons and his father's sons before them, and so far as we've seen equally few fire demons; are either of them the servants of a hidden player or are they the self perpetuating "children" of some very old magic?

Well if you look at the show you could theorize that the Kiss of Fire that revives Beric/Cat has a parallel in what was potentially a Kiss of Ice that the White Walker gave the infant.

Actually, come to think of it, you have potential along this line: What is dead may never die, and the Iron Isles give the Kiss of LIfe (or Water). Mayhaps this is a perversion of an older ritual that created the mer-people? Perhaps there is a similar ritual for the deformed and bastard children sent down the well, they were sent into the earth for the children to collect, and become the COTF? (Leaf is 200 years old...). And didn't the Undying try to suck the life out of Dany (I'm really hazy on my memory of this, and this one is a reach, at best).

[tbc]

The dark eyed youth seen in Bran's weirwood vision was making arrows of weirwood for a bit of dragon-slaying.

We don't yet know why he didn't use them, but the obvious (and very big) difference this time around is that Winter is coming.

And Long Night Winter, rather than normal Winter.

Is there any reason why weirwood arrows would be particularly effective against dragons?

[Profion]

We assume it would be effective because the brother of Tohrren was too certain that it would work, or else he was to insane, because one arrow to each dragon isn´t exactly great odds.

[Bran Vras]

About Ramsay:

He appears more as some sort of animal given human form. A monster is how he is described on many occasions. I cannot shake the suspicion that he is somehow inadvertently preparing/subverting the north (by sowing discord) in preparation for the fall of the Wall...

Back in the day when Bras Vas was much more active on the forum there was a distinct feeling that he could be likened with the Others; hunting maidens through the woods and so forth.

I have done my best to establish a connection between Ramsay and the Others. I could not find anything decisive beside some analogies: the hunts of the maids, the symbolic recycling of his victims as bitches (like people killed by the others have a second life as servants-wights), certain troubling details that recall Craster...

Here is perhaps the best observation I could make. As it happens it is also a contribution to the current discussion on direwolves. Indeed, I see an analogy between Ramsay and the direwolves (recall Robett Glover: Ramsay is a beast in human skin).

The tale of Ramsay's mother bringing her son to the Dreadfort reminds me of the she-wolf bringing her pups to Winterfell. Ned Stark hesitated to accept the wolves, before he finally felt compelled to give them to his children. Roose's hesitation is similar: He intended to throw Ramsay in a well, but finally felt he had to let the child live, and eventually made of him his heir.

I can add that the bond between Ramsay and Reek (the servant Ramsay's mother demanded, and from which Ramsay was inseparable) is comparable to the bond between the Stark children and their wolves (at least until they developed warging).

(All this is discussed in more detail in The Host and the Groom.)

That probably ends my contribution to Heresy 50. We might meet again in another friendly thread.

[Ser Creighton]

I'm not at all convinced as to Bloodraven being the "pivot" but I do like the notion of the three-eyed-crow being the direct counterpart of the three headed dragon.

...and it does very much put Bloodraven and the children in the opposite camp to Azor Ahai, the dragons and the rest of the Red menace

Well with your interpretation of Maiden, Mother, Crone, or the three stages of life, you have the three headed Dragon. But according to the appendix the the three heads of the dragon represents Aegon and his sisters. AGoT appendix House Targaryen. So what can you determine from the aspects of those three people? What were they symbolic of? I have my own belief on the three heads of the dragon but I don't think this is the right thread for it.

Also why are Azor Ahai and the Dragons even in the same camp? He predates the Red Priests, Valyria and Dragons. It seems religion has mixed him into there own beliefs and culture but it's not like he had any say in the matter. I don't think we even know his actual name, I always believed Azor Ahai to be a title given by the red priests to a person from a long time ago. I really does not sound like a First Man name. Or was he like there version of Jesus Christ? Christ didn't actually call his beliefs Christianity, and it took centuries for it to become one of the main religions.

Not really sure if Christianity is the the right religion to use as an example given Martin said he based it off of Zoroastrianism, but I was rather comparing Azor Ahai and Christ as being two Messiah figures. If martin is speaking the truth then in fact you would have to opposing gods or forces. Wisdom, vs. destruction, or light vs. dark, good vs. evil. He also recently stated at the Emmys I believe that Mel was one of his two most misunderstood characters.

I think with the Others people probably need to understand one thing. While Westeros views what they represent as evil, the Others may simply see it as there way of life or part of the natural order of things. Like we see people being sacrificed to the red god, well many people seem to see that as normal in that world. While the others may view killing the humans as a sacrifice to there own god. It's really not all that different. Or they may view killing as a form of entertainment or war and destruction as the long Bingo night. You know they may just not like humans.

[wolfmaid7]

Hey guys i wanted to get your opinions on this, i've been playing around with the pact between the Targs and the Starks and also the idea that there are something that has been forgotten.Maybe they were connected long before Torheen Stark bent the knee.I'd like to draw your attention to the following quote:

"The maester stood on the windswept balcony outside his chambers. It was here the ravens came, after long flight. Their droppings speckled the gargoyles that rose twelve feet tall on either side of him, a hellhound and a wyvern, two of the thousand that brooded over the walls of the ancient fortress. When first he came to Dragonstone, the army of stone grotesques had made him uneasy, but as the years passed he had grown used to them" (ACOK Maester Cressen).

I find the description of the gargoyles to be strange,to me hellhound can be viewed as ( Direwolf) and Wyvern(Dragon).Given that Gargoyles were used as symbols as protection i find it odd that these two stood side by side on Dragonstone. Now is it possible that the Targs when they built Dragonstone were already aware of the significance of the Direwolf guardian and their link to the Starks?