HERESY 50

[Mace Cooterian]

I am but a simple man and content to accept the bare title of heretic over earthly crowns.

I do however face a horrible temptation to name the next edition Heresy Area 51

I like it....just be preapred for the landing of aliens in the discussion threads :cool4:

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Welcome to Heresy. I wondered when you were going to show up because I think you'll like it here.

The short answer to your question is that we have indeed discussed Frazer's Golden Bough on here and Bran Vras' theories acrtually grew to a certain extent out of that discussion. As nobody now living can remember in which edition of Heresy we discussed particular aspects feel free to start it again all over, but in brief we noted the very overt linkage to the practice in Pentos and very strongly suspect similar parallels in Westeros. GRRM is certainly drawing on the Golden Bough but as with everything else there are elements of mix and match so that while Bloodraven appears similar in a lot of ways to Odin, Bran, his intended replacement appears rather more like Bran the Blessed from the Mabinogion particularly as regards his fate to be buried under a hill and there to watch over the realms of Westeros.

Thank you! I think I will too (if you're at all familiar with American Broadway musicals, you might understand why a certain song from the musical Annie just popped into my head ;))

I think I'll make a concerted effort to skim past threads and will definitely keep on reading Bran Vras' theories. The mix and match element of the parallels is very much what attracts me to this analysis. In either the mythologic and historic spectrum it requires a broad range of knowledge and facility of thought that I liken to Sherlock Holmes' process. Being a fan of all of the above (Martin, mythology, history, Holmes...) I guess makes me a good candidate for heresy. :stunned:

[brut]

I am but a simple man and content to accept the bare title of heretic over earthly crowns.

I do however face a horrible temptation to name the next edition Heresy Area 51

As King Robert would say, no one in their right mind should want to become a King. But sometimes one simply has to :)

Heresy Area 51: We come with peace

[Black Crow]

I always thought the zombie thing only worked because it was cold enough to preserve the body and keep it from decomposing as quickly as if it were hot and summery out.

CH even said, his heart doesn't pump anymore. So the only thing preserving him is magic and the cold. And I think the magic lets him keep his mind and the ability to move his muscles, but it is the cold that keeps the muscles from deteriorating. so he has something to move. If that made sense.

Well its all magic which is why the wights burst into flames at the slightest excuse and also why they're able to move in the first place without any fluid pumping through their limbs. The meat in my freezer is certainly not deteriorating but its also rock hard and quite incapable of moving anywhere.

I'm just speculating as to whether there might be a hierarchy with white walkers and red priests turned to Ice or Fire respectively while still alive, as represented by Craster's sons on the one hand and Mel, Moqorro and Victarion on the other. Next step down are those dead raised again by the personal touch, by physically puting winter inside them (Coldhands) or fire (Beric and Catelyn), the magic then keeps them in some semblance of life and intelligence, but effectively preserves in Coldhands' case or consumes, per Beric and Cateyn. The third level are the wights who are the unthinking zombies with their bodies but not their minds preserved by the cold. Given the duality of the magics in theory then there could be fire wights as well, but perhaps they would just burn up too quickly to be any use.

[Hrafntýr]

I've been wanting for a while now to raise the subject of the "threefold death" and your post really points in that general direction. (So sorry if this has been discussed before...the search function is not working for me, I'm assuming because the forums are in "performance mode"?).

So there is a hypothetical Indo-European practice of a form of sacrifice known as the threefold death, in which the victim is killed in three ways: by hanging (or falling, or strangulation), by wounding, and by drowning. The obvious mythic figures associated with this motif are Odin and Merlin (in his Welsh form, Myrddin Wyllt); in the case of Odin, he undergoes the threefold death himself in order to attain secret knowledge/prophecy. Merlin is less directly connected: he prophesies a threefold death for someone else, and he ends up dying this way.

A commentator on Lucan's Pharsalia notes that the Celts (he's talking about the Gaulish ones) offer sacrifices to the god Taranis (a storm or thunder god) by burning, to Teutates/Toutatis by drowning, and to Esus (associated with trees and a three-headed bull) by means of suspending his victims from trees and ritually wounding them.

The Old Irish materials point to a special relationship between this form of death and kingship, though that is work of serious reading between the lines in the extant literature (it's clearest in the stories of Muirchertach macc Ercae, Áed Dub, and Diarmat, but the motif lurks through lots of cattle-raid stories, and that of Da Derga's Hostel). I posted a while back about sacrifice and wells in the British Isles: not human, generally speaking, but there's a strong motif linking decapitation with wells.

In any event: drowning, falling/hanging/wounding, and burning seem to match up pretty well with what you've suggested, FFR. An earlier era may have practiced human sacrifices. Also, the implements of drowning, wounding and burning are present in the Reed Oath.

I know that it's bad form to quote oneself, but I had another addition to my much earlier thoughts about the threefold death, which is that Bran's "Heart of Winter" dream seems to echo Merlin's death in which he is driven off a cliff (the falling/hanging motif) is impaled on a spear (the wounding motif) and died with his dead below water (the drowning motif). Here's Bran's dream:

Now you know, the crow whispered as it sat on his shoulder, now you know why you must live.

"Why?" Bran said, not understanding, falling, falling.

Because winter is coming.

Bran looked down. There was nothing below him now but snow and cold and death, a frozen wasteland where jagged blue-white spires of ice waited to embrace him. They flew up at him like spears. He saw the bones of a thousand other dreamers impaled upon their points. He was desperately afraid.

So, two of the three are present (falling and wounding), which links Bran to the mantic functions of Merlin/Odin. But I guess what I'm suggesting is that in the Indo-European world, we see that all three forms are necessary forms of sacrifice in order to continue to restore the figure of the king (which echoes the general thrust of Lady Gwynhvfvar's recent post about Frazer's Golden Bough). In the world of ASoIaF, these three manners of sacrifice have become separated, with the BwB now pretty into hanging, the Ironborn doing the drowning, and the Valyrians/Targaryens doing the burning (though the bones that Jon found in the tree at Whitetree were burnt, though likely after death, to protect the corpses from becoming wights). But the Indo-European material suggests that it is in uniting these three modes of sacrifice (which seem to have become disjointed in our world) that true kingship is restored. Whatever "true kingship" might mean in this world?

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

I am but a simple man and content to accept the bare title of heretic over earthly crowns.

I do however face a horrible temptation to name the next edition Heresy Area 51

There you go! Another Mithraic parallel. Initiates into the higher levels of the mysteries symbolically refused to wear even ceremonial coronets because "their only crown [was] Mithras" ;)

[Black Crow]

But I guess what I'm suggesting is that in the Indo-European world, we see that all three forms are necessary forms of sacrifice in order to continue to restore the figure of the king (which echoes the general thrust of Lady Gwynhvfvar's recent post about Frazer's Golden Bough). In the world of ASoIaF, these three manners of sacrifice have become separated, with the BwB now pretty into hanging, the Ironborn doing the drowning, and the Valyrians/Targaryens doing the burning (though the bones that Jon found in the tree at Whitetree were burnt, though likely after death, to protect the corpses from becoming wights). But the Indo-European material suggests that it is in uniting these three modes of sacrifice (which seem to have become disjointed in our world) that true kingship is restored. Whatever "true kingship" might mean in this world?

But then again, given that its Martin's World rather than our own, do all three need to be united in a single indivual. Bran the Blessed has fallen and his head is now buried under the earth, while Jon has been ritually stabbed - and it was too the way each of them stuck a dagger into him. Bran survived and we now know Jon has too, so who is to be the third son (or daughter) of Winterfell to undergo the ordeal.

[brut]

I know that it's bad form to quote oneself, but I had another addition to my much earlier thoughts about the threefold death, which is that Bran's "Heart of Winter" dream seems to echo Merlin's death in which he is driven off a cliff (the falling/hanging motif) is impaled on a spear (the wounding motif) and died with his dead below water (the drowning motif). Here's Bran's dream: So, two of the three are present (falling and wounding), which links Bran to the mantic functions of Merlin/Odin. But I guess what I'm suggesting is that in the Indo-European world, we see that all three forms are necessary forms of sacrifice in order to continue to restore the figure of the king (which echoes the general thrust of Lady Gwynhvfvar's recent post about Frazer's Golden Bough). In the world of ASoIaF, these three manners of sacrifice have become separated, with the BwB now pretty into hanging, the Ironborn doing the drowning, and the Valyrians/Targaryens doing the burning (though the bones that Jon found in the tree at Whitetree were burnt, though likely after death, to protect the corpses from becoming wights). But the Indo-European material suggests that it is in uniting these three modes of sacrifice (which seem to have become disjointed in our world) that true kingship is restored. Whatever "true kingship" might mean in this world?

There's another dream where Bran sees flooding of Winterfell, with danger of drowning upon himself. So, I'd say all three elements of Merlin's death are there.

[Black Crow]

Ah, that one was down to Jojen the Creepy

[brut]

Of cause. Well, still relates to Bran, I guess.

[Hrafntýr]

But then again, given that its Martin's World rather than our own, do all three need to be united in a single indivual. Bran the Blessed has fallen and his head is now buried under the earth, while Jon has been ritually stabbed - and it was too the way each of them stuck a dagger into him. Bran survived and we now know Jon has too, so who is to be the third son (or daughter) of Winterfell to undergo the ordeal.

Indeed, they don't. Also in the Indo-European world you have something like a "composite hero," often a group of brothers, who taken together unite the functions of the king, and they are each marked by one of the three forms of death. So, we could see the six litter-mates that are the Starks as bringing these functions together. Or, alternatively, we could anticipate a single figure restoring kingship by suffering the threefold death.

There's another dream where Bran sees flooding of Winterfell, with danger of drowning upon himself. So, I'd say all three elements of Merlin's death are there.

Excellent, thank you!

[Black Crow]

Indeed, they don't. Also in the Indo-European world you have something like a "composite hero," often a group of brothers, who taken together unite the functions of the king, and they are each marked by one of the three forms of death. So, we could see the six litter-mates that are the Starks as bringing these functions together. Or, alternatively, we could anticipate a single figure restoring kingship by suffering the threefold death.

I think its more likely the way this story has been set up that we're looking at the composite, hence my reference to sons (and daughters) of Winterfell. Ultimately this is about the Stark kids and each of them has a different role to play in resolving the story, or perhaps three of them do.

[Alia of the knife]

Thank you! :)

Yes, that comment is actually the only textual support I've found for the theory, although I find a lot of circumstantial evidence. Interestingly, I'm able to tie this in with my analysis of The Golden Bough based on Frazer's postulation that humans progress from magic to religion to science. The maesters in that analogy would represent the further end of the religion phase (that is, the element making the move towards science) and would definitely be interested in eradicating not only popular belief in magic but also anything/person which would support such a belief and thereby threaten their influence.

As you know, my frame of reference goes back to Frank Herbert, and specifically "Dune" as I see many similarities and themes.

In terms of the motives of the Maesters, who are very much like the Bene Jessarit in "Dune" except they a powerful group of women, sometimes referred to as Witches, or Seers, they too are very much involved in the underlying machinations of the KIngdom, or Universe.

But, unlike the Bene Gessarit who are trying to manipulate the bloodlines between two specific families because prophesy tells them they will beget a powerful super being, the Maesters may actually be trying to STOP the unification of the bloodlines of the Targaryens and the Starks, knowing that over time, a being beyond their power or control could emerge.

On the Aegon V and his family.

I always go back to Lady Olenna and her conversation with Sansa about the Targaryen Prince she was supposed to marry, but said she had put an end to it, and the theory that it might have been aTargaryen Prince who scorned her, (or a Stark scorned her for a Targareyen Princess), thus she is now continuing the cycle of revenge, and in this case it's her Granddaughter Margaery who supplants Sansa, (thought admittedly, no great loss). :stillsick:

[lokisnow]

So, we could see the six litter-mates that are the Starks as bringing these functions together.

Well shit. six litter mates does not scan at all for this being Martin's world. Who is the seventh littermate? Ramsey?

[Black Crow]

... the Maesters may actually be trying to STOP the unification of the bloodlines of the Targaryens and the Starks, knowing that over time, a being beyond their power or control could emerge...

I'm not so sure about the maesters wanting to frustrate a Stark/Targaryen alliance. While we pointedly don't know what they talk about amongst themselves I'd be extremely surprised if they don't know about R+L=J. Maester Aemon I believe was in contact with Rhaegar and yet he's the one who very firmly tells Jon he is a son of Winterfell, which might once again point to it being more important that he is the son of Lyanna Stark than that he is the son of Rhaegar Targaryen

[Black Crow]

Well shit. six litter mates does not scan at all for this being Martin's world. Who is the seventh littermate? Ramsey?

Agreed, which is why I'm inclined to look at just three of them doing the business - which is a significant number in Martin's World.

[Black Crow]

OK I need to nip out for half an hour, so I'm launching Heresy 51 now. See you all over there.

[alienarea]

I like it....just be preapred for the landing of aliens in the discussion threads :cool4:

Here I am :blushing:

[Tyryan Lannister]

In lead up to Heresy 51, I'd like to propose all Heresy fans (who hopefully support this initiative) to ask Black Crow to change his board standing from "Heretic" to "King Heretic". Truly, his modesty would prevent him from doing so individually, but if all of us demonstrate how much we appreciate his insight into all things Heresy, he might just accept this well-earned title!

King Heretic of Westeros!

I am but a simple man and content to accept the bare title of heretic over earthly crowns.

I do however face a horrible temptation to name the next edition Heresy Area 51

I think the fact that he has a Hand, a Mistress of Whispers, a giant, and the offspring of Euron's Chamber pot are enough to show his mighty standing :cool4:

@BC re: H51: god yes, please do :devil:

[Black Crow]

And that's it for the 50th edition of Heresy ladies, gentlemen and others, thank you for your thoughful contributions and the complete lack of acrimony which makes this such a joy of a thread.