HERESY 50

[Tyryan Lannister]

Little Wing, I'm starting to suspect you are behind this grand conspiracy of mocking the TV on Facebook :)

Well, she is the mistress of whispers for a reason...

[Tyryan Lannister]

Jon- Who had a "brother" he loved, (Robb), and a "brother" he hated, (Aegon).

But how could Jon hate someone he doesn't even know exists? Not to disparage the overall analogy though, for it still works, just not with Aegon--instead, the "brother" that Jon hated would be Lord Janos Slynt.

[TheButcherCrow]

But how could Jon hate someone he doesn't even know exists? Not to disparage the overall analogy though, for it still works, just not with Aegon--instead, the "brother" that Jon hated would be Lord Janos Slynt.

Robb is both the brother loved & the brother hated. For if ice can burn, why cannot love hate?

[Black Wolf Smith]

Ah, not able to keep up, but just popped by to share this, since you guys liked the last one :D

I really love the Joff joining Westeros Baptist Church.

[Black Crow]

Robb is both the brother loved & the brother hated. For if ice can burn, why cannot love hate?

Indeed, because there was that scene from childhood when Jon jumped on to the tree-stump or whatever and proclaimed himself lord of Winterfell only for Robb to immediately turn serious and tell him that he would never be. Likewise Robb is one of those he kills in the Wall dream.

[Black Crow]

...Of course this is fantasy, even if 'low magic,' and Bloodraven is still alive (somewhat) but I do believe his influence is far overrated by many readers. There are also the gods that Bloodraven/Bittersteel champion and the question of their influence.

The influence may be on the order of a nudge: 'the gods know my name' giving Theon the confidence/will to defy Ramsey, for example. These nudges could also lead to a series of seemingly fortuitous events - this is how I read the direwolf south of the wall, not that someone in effect 'put it on a leash' and brought it where it needed to be...

On the whole I'm inclined to agree with your analysis. While the HBO show isn't canon the fact the producers appear to consider Bloodraven to be expendable as a character clearly argues against the common assumptions that he is manipulating and warging everything. Strange things (for want of a better term) are happening but in the light of this and Martin's assertion that Gods will not walk upon the earth it goes back to the original Morrigan concept of discreet and very ambiguous and subtle nudges by parties never quite identified.

That raises the question: is Ramsey a Changeling or perhaps is his mother something other than a mere miller's wife? In short, what is Ramsey exactly?

He appears more as some sort of animal given human form. A monster is how he is described on many occasions. I cannot shake the suspicion that he is somehow inadvertently preparing/subverting the north (by sowing discord) in preparation for the fall of the Wall...

Back in the day when Bras Vas was much more active on the forum there was a distinct feeling that he could be likened with the Others; hunting maidens through the woods and so forth.

[Black Crow]

Following on from my last in a sense, I've been giving some more thought to the creatures of Ice and Fire. In the last couple of threads we looked at the evidence showing that Mel, Moqorro and now Victarion are Fire made flesh, and how the white walkers, Craster's sons, are their mirror image in being Ice made flesh.

On a different thread Free Northman wrote something similar:

I theorize that the Others we have seen are probably hybrids magically created through some magical process using Craster's sons, which allow the Others to traverse areas that are warmer than the North Pole.

The true Others may therefore be some kind of crystaline Ice creatures that can only survive in the Polar Arctic conditions.

While this has an a certain logic, I'm not so sure. As I've argued before its a bit late in the day for a Great Other, whether as a single indiidual or a race of "crystaline ice creatures" to appear as the previously unseen antagonist. Given that there are so few white walkers, perhaps limited to Craster's sons and his father's sons before them, and so far as we've seen equally few fire demons; are either of them the servants of a hidden player or are they the self perpetuating "children" of some very old magic?

[Profion]

I like the idea of Ramsay being a Changeling. It would fit, his behaviour matches the one of a Sidhe. (So it was mentioned in some Heresy thread before).

But there´s also the theory that the whole Bolton family descends of the Night King and his kids with the Sidhe "Queen".

[Alia of the knife]

But how could Jon hate someone he doesn't even know exists? Not to disparage the overall analogy though, for it still works, just not with Aegon--instead, the "brother" that Jon hated would be Lord Janos Slynt.

I know what you mean. :)

I'm speculating on the future of course, and within the context of the themes of cycles, especially the cycles of vengeance that Ellaria Sand references, and if Jon and Aegon do meet, I think it's just as likely that they won't have an easy relationship, especially given what JonCon has probably told Aegon about the Starks.

Also, Joncon wearing a wolfskin cloak probably doesn't bode well either.

Afterall, it was Jons mother who replaced Aegons mother in a sense, again working within the context of that theory, but I also see the merit of your point.

[Alia of the knife]

Ah, not able to keep up, but just popped by to share this, since you guys liked the last one :D

Okay, I'm ashamed to say that I laughed until I almost cried with Hotpie, and the Westboro parts were my favorite. :D

Off to work with a smile..............................

[tbc]

I know what you mean. :)

I'm speculating on the future of course, and within the context of the themes of cycles, especially the cycles of vengeance that Ellaria Sand references, and if Jon and Aegon do meet, I think it's just as likely that they won't have an easy relationship, especially given what JonCon has probably told Aegon about the Starks.

Also, Joncon wearing a wolfskin cloak probably doesn't bode well either.

Afterall, it was Jons mother who replaced Aegons mother in a sense, again working within the context of that theory, but I also see the merit of your point.

The Starks are dragon fodder if either Dany or Aegon recover the seven kingdoms. Dany is on the record as having the Starks down for vengeance when she returns, and I doubt that JC, Aegon or the Martells are likely to be any more forgiving.

The only way they survive is either as an independent Northern kingdom (not impossible, a fully garrisoned Moat Cailin is impregnable), if the Targaryens lose, or if Bran and the weirwoods save them.

[Iceborn]

Dany only has control of Drogon the other dragons are feral, Possibly Jon could act as a link between the families, but as he has the strongest claim to the throne (if we accept Aegon is blackfyre) then Dany will want him dead, Also dragons are like nukes, whoever holds them will win, if Jon manages to take control of Drogon (warging) in the middle of a battle he will win.

[jon rr stark]

The Starks are dragon fodder if either Dany or Aegon recover the seven kingdoms. Dany is on the record as having the Starks down for vengeance when she returns, and I doubt that JC, Aegon or the Martells are likely to be any more forgiving.

The only way they survive is either as an independent Northern kingdom (not impossible, a fully garrisoned Moat Cailin is impregnable), if the Targaryens lose, or if Bran and the weirwoods save them.

The Starks have plenty of strength left along with wildlings and Stannis as a probable ally. Plus the vale. The Targs would have questionable strength as well. However a climatic battle finale is not what many on this thread see as the end game.

[Little Wing]

Maybe we should only read these and not watch the show. They're funnier and there'll be less venting about the changes they made ;)

Hah, not a bad idea!

I really love the Joff joining Westeros Baptist Church.

Yep. Laughed out loud to that one!

Okay, I'm ashamed to say that I laughed until I almost cried with Hotpie, and the Westboro parts were my favorite. :D

Off to work with a smile..............................

Glad to hear! Making people laugh by sharing this makes me happy ^_^

Well, she is the mistress of whispers for a reason...

:ph34r:

[Little Wing]

Following on from my last in a sense, I've been giving some more thought to the creatures of Ice and Fire. In the last couple of threads we looked at the evidence showing that Mel, Moqorro and now Victarion are Fire made flesh, and how the white walkers, Craster's sons, are their mirror image in being Ice made flesh.

On a different thread Free Northman wrote something similar:

While this has an a certain logic, I'm not so sure. As I've argued before its a bit late in the day for a Great Other, whether as a single indiidual or a race of "crystaline ice creatures" to appear as the previously unseen antagonist. Given that there are so few white walkers, perhaps limited to Craster's sons and his father's sons before them, and so far as we've seen equally few fire demons; are either of them the servants of a hidden player or are they the self perpetuating "children" of some very old magic?

The Great (m)Other/female Other/Night's Queen is their Queen Bee.... and Craster's sons are her mates.... she creates white shadows - opposing Mel's shadow babies

:leaving:

[tbc]

The Starks have plenty of strength left along with wildlings and Stannis as a probable ally. Plus the vale. The Targs would have questionable strength as well. However a climatic battle finale is not what many on this thread see as the end game.

Dany only has control of Drogon the other dragons are feral, Possibly Jon could act as a link between the families, but as he has the strongest claim to the throne (if we accept Aegon is blackfyre) then Dany will want him dead, Also dragons are like nukes, whoever holds them will win, if Jon manages to take control of Drogon (warging) in the middle of a battle he will win.

Dany only has one dragon, but there's currently a dragon horn near Meereen (as of the Barristan chapter in TWoW), and Moqorro who seems to know how to use it, and to consider Dany Azor Ahai. She'll have control of them, even if she can't ride them.

There's no evidence, anyway, that one could warg into a dragon. Certainly not one bonded by blood magic (the horn) with a rider.

I buy the idea that Jon (given R+L=J) would be acceptable to Dany or Aegon, assuming they accept his likely parentage.

But I really, really doubt that a restored Targaryen king or queen is likely to let one of the reben houses off.

[Black Crow]

The Great (m)Other/female Other/Night's Queen is their Queen Bee.... and Craster's sons are her mates.... she creates white shadows - opposing Mel's shadow babies

:leaving:

She may well have created the first generation (whoever she is) but I wonder whether the "gave her his seed" might not have been interpreted too literally or rather intimately. In other words rather than engaging in sexual congress he quite literally gave her his seed; his son. The story goes on that when he was overthrown it was found that he and his people had been sacrificing to the Others. We've taken this before as giving up their sons a la Craster so there's no reason why he shouldn't have done the same.

Similarly, although Old Nan also speaks of Wildling women lying with the Others to produce terrible half-human children, we now know that she isn't to be relied on (the Others are not dead...) so the reality could well be that they too were giving up their sons to become white walkers in return for protection or whatever.

[Black Crow]

Dany only has one dragon, but there's currently a dragon horn near Meereen (as of the Barristan chapter in TWoW), and Moqorro who seems to know how to use it, and to consider Dany Azor Ahai. She'll have control of them, even if she can't ride them.

There's no evidence, anyway, that one could warg into a dragon. Certainly not one bonded by blood magic (the horn) with a rider.

I buy the idea that Jon (given R+L=J) would be acceptable to Dany or Aegon, assuming they accept his likely parentage.

But I really, really doubt that a restored Targaryen king or queen is likely to let one of the reben houses off.

I think you're missing the point that the North and its magic is going to be equal to the dragons. Yes they appear powerful but they're going to be dead by the time this is finished.

[tbc]

She may well have created the first generation (whoever she is) but I wonder whether the "gave her his seed" might not have been interpreted too literally or rather intimately. In other words rather than engaging in sexual congress he quite literally gave her his seed; his son. The story goes on that when he was overthrown it was found that he and his people had been sacrificing to the Others. We've taken this before as giving up their sons a la Craster so there's no reason why he shouldn't have done the same.

Similarly, although Old Nan also speaks of Wililing women lying with the Others to produce terrible half-human children, we now know that she isn't to be relied on (the Others are not dead...) so the reality could well be that they too were giving up their sons to become white walkers in return for protection or whatever.

That's very believable, when you think of Athens' sending seven children to the Labyrinth every year/seven years/nine years.

[tbc]

I think you're missing the point that the North and its magic is going to be equal to the dragons. Yes they appear powerful but they're going to be dead by the time this is finished.

Quite possibly, however, why didn't the North respond as it seems to be doing now in Aegon's conquest?