the uncanny valley of TV adaptions

[The Mountain That Posts]

I don't know a single person who prefers the second season to the first. Not a single one.

And I know people who STOPPED watching the show(that had never read the books) after plots they just didn't understand. I know two people who stopped watching after Renly died because "Bullshit magic show, we don't care". I know three others who just LOST interest in the second season and stopped. And I have another friend who was really hoping the show was be militaristic and strategic and all that, and was vastly disappointed to get a tit-filled romantic soap opera instead.

Also, I remember the night the Blackwater episode aired, everyone on my FB feed(readers and nonreaders aike) were posting about how terrible the whole episode was due to the forced sandor/bronn scenes, the lack of any strategy or military talk whatsoever making both Tyrion and Stannis seem like morons, the lolzie unbelieveableness of Stannis being the first up the ladder, the horribly unbelievable and shitty special effects, etc.

As a whole, everyone I know whose watched the show(readers AND nonbook readers) has vastly prefered the first season. I literally couldn't name a single person who preferred the second season. And even people who think the first season starts slow acknowledge that it's all necessary world building and character development. Lost didn't just start off as one big WHAT THE FUCK, the whole first season of that show was basically character development - and look how fucking popular that show is. (Or rather, was. Now that it's over and that the last few seasons of that blew, Lost went from being a mega sensation to kind of a "WHAT'S LOST?" kind of thing. Sadly.)

Anywho, as for actors aging, it won't be an 18 year old actor playing a 10 year old bran. By that point, it'd be more like 13 or 14 year old Bran. Much more believable. Because keep in mind, each book is a LONG time in-plot time. Not that anyone on the show cares. everyone(especially Littlefinger) seems to have jetpacks designed to get from place to place without a problem and within five minutes.

[Nine of Spades]

They certainly don't seem "fundamentally" different to me. Different, sure, but not the total betrayal of the characters as people suggest.

Robb's destructive arc in the tv series seems thoroughly self indulgent and pre-mediated. In contrast, his destructive arc in the book is a moment of weakness and then a lack of flexibility/tragedy as he refuses to relive what he percieves as the mistakes of his parents. Book Robb wouldnt even consider the decision show Robb made, and to me that is a fundamental change in his character. Its the difference between being a prisoner of the past and just a foolish selfish boy.

As for book Jon vs. show Jon, book Jon is generally defined by his competence, whereas show Jon is nothing but a blundering idiot. The problem was clear from the beginning when they took away his "I think not, this one is mine," line upon finding ghost, instead of him staring at ghost like he was Hodor and you gave him a book to read. Generally Jon's arc in the book is about him having to deal with having to sacrifice bits and pieces of himself as he keeps trying to do the right thing. Show Jon just comes off as an idiot stumbling from one scene to another, with no real choices being made.

[Arrow]

I read the LOTR series - most of the books, anyway - for over 20 years before the movies started being made. I was happy with both, because I decided to take each form on its own merits. When I read the books now, I still have my original images of the characters in my head, not the movie characters. I don't know why I've been able to retain that and keep them separate, I just have.

Doing the opposite with this series has been another sort of adventure. Now that I'm reading the books, I find it enhances the TV experience by filling in some blanks and going into more depth as to why things happen the way they do, and more depth with the characters' backstories.

Since I love a good story and don't usually sweat the small stuff, I'm happy with all of it.

(I remember when the first LOTR movie came out, there was a book purist in my circle of friends and he pretty much ruined our get-togethers for several weeks with his rage at the changes they made. He nearly had an aneurysm when Boromir died and Aragon made a sort of half-hearted Christian sign of a cross on his own forehead and chest or whatever. You'd think Jackson had shat upon some sacred Pagan symbol or something, he was so outraged. He swore he would watch not one minute more of that moronic traitor Peter Jackson's work. I don't remember if he did or not. I finally got so bored with him that I simply tuned him out.)

[ckongo]

If season 1 had not been such a damn good adaption it probably would have softened the blow to the travesty that was season 2 in regards to book purism. Yes, I'm a book purist. Not the kind that gets mad about Robb not having red hair, but the kind that gets mad when the Ramsay/Reek dynamic is removed from the show and Theon gets boncked in the head to skip the sack of Winterfell.

Here are some rules of thumb that HBO should have followed:

1) If actors are too "big time" to stick to their book screen time, don't cast them

2) Don't add any plots, EVER

3)Don't change plots just because you want to (ex: Joffrey killing Robert's bastards instead of Cersei)

4)Don't add scenes like Shae being jealous of Sansa or a sex scene just because you want that element

5)Characters can leave the show for several seasons (like Theon). I'm sure viewers are smart enough to remember them (The Wire managed it)

Now, this is an opinion, but IMO I don't think a verbatim adaption to the screen is a bad thing. I love the scenes that stick to the books word for word (as rare as they are anymore). The logic that this is a bad thing implies that once you've watched something it has no replay value because you know what's going to happen.

[Stannis the Wight]

Honestly, the book purists really piss me off. I LOVE the books, but the TV show really is it's own separate entity. I will never understand the level of jaded hate and cynicism that most of the book purists seem to have. Honestly, I like the tv show fans way more, because they're excited and happy about everything.

Book fans seem to think that if something gets changed, it's all because there's this conspiracy to try and change everything and make it better and blagh blagh. Clearly none of these people have ever written anything. Do you have any idea how boring it would be to literally just transcribe all the dialogue and scenes? That's not the job of the writer. They aren't "out to do it better" or make changes just to piss you off, change doesn't always mean improvement, or that there has to be an focus on improvement. It's about giving the writers of the show creative freedom to do their job.

Really, the sheer entitled nature of book fans makes me wary of them. I found out about the series just last year and I still like everything, but to hear some of the novel fans, you'd think they hated ASOIAF. It's always whining and bitching about how long the books will take, and how they wanted more in aFfC, and how aDwD didn't live up to their expectations, as if they actually contributed anything to the creative process.

So yeah, changes are inevitable and it's not about making everything better. Enjoy the show for what it is, and if you can;t then don't watch it and stop giving the rest of us headaches about "character assassination and "but they didn't include Edric Dayne in the brotherhood without banners, duh whole story is ruined, bwaaaaa"

This.

I cringe every time I see someone use the phrase character assassination, which has been very often this past week.I also have a beef with book readers who for some strange reasons feel like having read a bunch of books entitles them to be assholes and ruin the series for non-book readers. It happened to me and it's happened to a few of my friends.

I say this to anyone on the forums who enjoys blatantly posting spoilers on Youtube, Facebook or any other social media: You are a giant douche, even more so than Joffrey or Daario.

[Nezzer]

This.

I cringe every time I see someone use the phrase character assassination, which has been very often this past week.I also have a beef with book readers who for some strange reasons feel like having read a bunch of books entitles them to be assholes and ruin the series for non-book readers. It happened to me and it's happened to a few of my friends.

I say this to anyone on the forums who enjoys blatantly posting spoilers on Youtube, Facebook or any other social media: You are a giant douche, even more so than Joffrey or Daario.

:bowdown: :agree: :bowdown:

[Khal Porno]

Robb's destructive arc in the tv series seems thoroughly self indulgent and pre-mediated. In contrast, his destructive arc in the book is a moment of weakness and then a lack of flexibility/tragedy as he refuses to relive what he percieves as the mistakes of his parents. Book Robb wouldnt even consider the decision show Robb made, and to me that is a fundamental change in his character. Its the difference between being a prisoner of the past and just a foolish selfish boy.

As for book Jon vs. show Jon, book Jon is generally defined by his competence, whereas show Jon is nothing but a blundering idiot. The problem was clear from the beginning when they took away his "I think not, this one is mine," line upon finding ghost, instead of him staring at ghost like he was Hodor and you gave him a book to read. Generally Jon's arc in the book is about him having to deal with having to sacrifice bits and pieces of himself as he keeps trying to do the right thing. Show Jon just comes off as an idiot stumbling from one scene to another, with no real choices being made.

Well the funny thing is, when I read A Storm of Swords, when Robb told his mommy that story about being distraught and needing to have his willy comforted, I said "bullshit!" It read to me like he was making excuses to justify his behavior, and that he likely already fell in love with Jeyne and had sex with her after he found out his brothers were dead - not just because he was sad, but because this was the woman he loved. And the two times we see him interacting with Jeyne it is clear they are in love, not that they are forced to be together against their will.

In my personal opinion, Robb was an unreliable narrator. The story he gives sounds so much like a half-truth to me that I can't believe so many people here take it at face value. And no, I'm not saying Robb is a liar - just that he conveniently left out part of the story.

So as far as I'm concerned, Robb on the show is acting in line with his character - he just doesn't have the excuse his book character had.

As far as Jon Snow is concerned, I have no idea why people say he's a bumbling fool...he doesn't come across that way to me at all. I watched the first season before I read the books, and I never thought he was bumbling or foolish. He also wasn't some hyper-competent person right from the start in the books (you'd think he was Batman listening to the people here). His competency grew as his story progressed, and the same will happen on the show.

[Khal Pono]

5)Characters can leave the show for several seasons (like Theon). I'm sure viewers are smart enough to remember them (The Wire managed it)

The rest of your post was wildly silly, but this bears discussion because it's not as simple as all that. Alfie Allen is one of the lead characters and probably has a multi-season contract. They can't just drop him and hope he'll be available 2 or 3 years from now, though I could see that happening with a very minor character (say, Illyrio).

He's employed by HBO for the duration, and I imagine his contract guarantees that he have a certain amount of screen time each season. He's too good of an actor for them to risk dropping him and face the danger of having to recast the character.

[The Mountain That Posts]

1) If actors are too "big time" to stick to their book screen time, don't cast them

Ugh, agreed so much. When I learned that the reason they wrote all those Charles Dance scenes in the second season was because the actor wasn't thrilled to have like two scenes the whole season, and he was basically just like "give me more screentime or I walk", I raged so hard. Fuck that.

And even though I feel like Alife and Nikolai were returning to the plot sooner for contract and viewer-memory reasons, not because of the actor egos, it still bugs me.

2) Don't add any plots, EVER

Agree and disagree. Adding entirely new plotlines? Yeah, no. Elaborating on plots? Like, Jaime's story to King Robert about the Mad King's final words? Those are good.

3)Don't change plots just because you want to (ex: Joffrey killing Robert's bastards instead of Cersei)

BUT HOW ELSE WILL CERSEI BY SYMPATHETIC?!?!?11111

Yeah, totally agree. I mean, little things can be changed(combining Bywater and Bronn, having no Pentrose and second shadow assassin, etc.) but as a whole, yes.

4)Don't add scenes like Shae being jealous of Sansa or a sex scene just because you want that element

More like "don't have Ros PERIOD, don't make Shae a major character PERIOD."

There's a video of every single nudity and/or sexual scene in the first two seasons out there all put together in a video. 44 minutes. When you have 44 minutes of nudity and sex in twenty hours, there's something seriously wrong.

5)Characters can leave the show for several seasons (like Theon). I'm sure viewers are smart enough to remember them (The Wire managed it)

Yes, and while I understand Khal Pono's point, this is why the producers and GRRM and the actor and the actor's agent all should've hammered it out BEFOREHAND. "Hey Alife, you'll be a character in the first two seasons, and fifth seasons onwards. But you're going to disappear for a bit, so plan on that" "Hey Nikolai, you pretty much ARE the biggest hero besides Jon by the end. You'll be a major character in every season, but season two? Only plan on a handful of scenes that season. Okayyy?"

It could've worked. Also, I wish the show took the time when shooting the first season to make Nikolai and Sean Bean super young looking and shoot all the rebellion scenes(like Ned entering the throne room) and whatnot, and having all those be a part of the House of the Undying episode. Would've been more screentime for Nikolai, gotten to give the audience more Sean Bean, explained the plot AND add an interesting dynamic of what we think Dany must've been thinking in response to seeing these scenes.

Well the funny thing is, when I read A Storm of Swords, when Robb told his mommy that story about being distraught and needing to have his willy comforted, I said "bullshit!" It read to me like he was making excuses to justify his behavior, and that he likely already fell in love with Jeyne and had sex with her after he found out his brothers were dead - not just because he was sad, but because this was the woman he loved. And the two times we see him interacting with Jeyne it is clear they are in love, not that they are forced to be together against their will.

In my personal opinion, Robb was an unreliable narrator. The story he gives sounds so much like a half-truth to me that I can't believe so many people here take it at face value. And no, I'm not saying Robb is a liar - just that he conveniently left out part of the story.

I actually agree with a lot of this, sadly, there isn't enough evidence either way.

And even if Robb had fallen in love, I still feel like the marriage was for taking her virginity and honor(parallel to Ned's honor), so it adds another dimension to it all. Sadly, GRRM didn't really add any more details to make this more of a debate - so we have to take it for fact. I can't see any way he could, or any reason WHY he would, add anything to this dynamic later on.

[Stannis the Wight]

Ugh, agreed so much. When I learned that the reason they wrote all those Charles Dance scenes in the season was because the actor wasn't thrilled to have like two scenes the whole season, and he was basically just like "give me more screentime or I walk", I raged so hard. Fuck that.

And even though I feel like Alife and Nikolai were returning to the plot sooner for contract and viewer-memory reasons, not because of the actor egos, it still bugs me

Bullshit. Total bullshit. All three are great actors and Tywins interactions with Arya were some of the best moments of season 2. Why wouldn't you want more of them on screen? Regardless of whether their agents pushed for it or not they portray their characters perfectly.

Theon not being gone is also perfect because they can show the TV audience how sadistic and twisted Ramsay Snow is, not just hear about it but actually seeit, this storyline is going to be one of the most compelling this season I can tell already. But people will still find something wrong with it I am sure.

[Khal Porno]

I actually agree with a lot of this, sadly, there isn't enough evidence either way.

And even if Robb had fallen in love, I still feel like the marriage was for taking her virginity and honor(parallel to Ned's honor), so it adds another dimension to it all. Sadly, GRRM didn't really add any more details to make this more of a debate - so we have to take it for fact. I can't see any way he could, or any reason WHY he would, add anything to this dynamic later on.

We don't HAVE to take it for fact. If you want to believe that Robb's story was 100% true as he said it then more power to you, but I believe it was implied he was telling a half-truth.

[MrsManderly]

Well the funny thing is, when I read A Storm of Swords, when Robb told his mommy that story about being distraught and needing to have his willy comforted, I said "bullshit!" It read to me like he was making excuses to justify his behavior, and that he likely already fell in love with Jeyne and had sex with her after he found out his brothers were dead - not just because he was sad, but because this was the woman he loved. And the two times we see him interacting with Jeyne it is clear they are in love, not that they are forced to be together against their will.

In my personal opinion, Robb was an unreliable narrator. The story he gives sounds so much like a half-truth to me that I can't believe so many people here take it at face value. And no, I'm not saying Robb is a liar - just that he conveniently left out part of the story.

So as far as I'm concerned, Robb on the show is acting in line with his character - he just doesn't have the excuse his book character had.

As far as Jon Snow is concerned, I have no idea why people say he's a bumbling fool...he doesn't come across that way to me at all. I watched the first season before I read the books, and I never thought he was bumbling or foolish. He also wasn't some hyper-competent person right from the start in the books (you'd think he was Batman listening to the people here). His competency grew as his story progressed, and the same will happen on the show.

I totally agree with this!

In the same vein, I don't get it when fans say that show Cat is a totally different character from book Cat. Yes, the words and some of the plots are different, but the essence of Cat seemed to me largely the same in both. Acknowledging that some of the show changes were not for the better (notably the fact that Cat's release of Jaime was not shown to be her grief-stricken reaction to the news of Bran and Rickon's supposed demise, which I did find jarring), overall I found it true to the spirit of the books.

Now I may be an amateur comared to real hard core fans and perhaps I have a faulty memory of various particulars, but I did read the series twice and think I know it reasonably well...

[The Mountain That Posts]

Bullshit. Total bullshit. All three are great actors and Tywins interactions with Arya were some of the best moments of season 2. Why wouldn't you want more of them on screen? Regardless of whether their agents pushed for it or not they portray their characters perfectly.

That was terrible. Tywin would never even TALK to his servants, let alone spread the tale of his son's dyslexia and make him into a laughing stock. And in addition to all this, it goes from Arya being psychologically and physically abused and then later regretting letting her emotions cloud her reasoning when she fails to kill anyone useful, to Arya killing nobodies and then regretting killing Tywin because he was only somewhat nice to her.

While the scenes were pleasing and well acted, and yes even well written, as a whole they're detrimental to Arya's character(she is, more or less, the same exact character she was at the end of season one character development wise) and Tywin's. "A lion doesn't concern himself with the opinions of the sheep."

Hell, Tywin doesn't seem to like being around Gregor Clegane or the Tyrells in the books. You really think he would want to talk to a cupbearing 12 year old? LOL

In b4 "book tywin and show tywin is different", because they've already established with his few season one seasons that Tywin is very prideful, obsessed with the Lannister image and very much judgmental.

Theon not being gone is also perfect because they can show the TV audience how sadistic and twisted Ramsay Snow is, not just hear about it but actually seeit, this storyline is going to be one of the most compelling this season I can tell already. But people will still find something wrong with it I am sure.

Or you know, no Theon for two seasons(AKA two years for people watching as it airs, or over twenty hours of television for those who marathon the show many years down the line) will realize it's been a LONG time since they've seen Theon. Couple that with the fact we'll know Theon is alive and being held prisoner by Ramsay(which would be twofold, because if they did it correct, we would've had and despised Ramsay already and know that THAT isn't good. The second is Theon's skin getting sent to Robb) And, at the end of all this, showing Theon being much older(perhaps his hair greying a bit), missing some fingers, missing skin, bumbling around, perhaps foaming at the mouth when scared. and now being obviously a broken man? We don't need to see SHIT of his torture. If anything, the imagination of what has happened to him would be much better and more devasting on screen. And more debate-worthy or whether or not he deserves this, considering what Theon has done and said in the first two seasons/books.

Honestly, I fail to see a single positive to not introducing Ramsay in season two and playing Theon/Ramsay out exactly the same way and then not showing either actor again until season 5. The only reasons I see:

A.) Actor contract/budget reasons (whatever, hypothetical convos are hypothetical)

And PERHAPS

B.) Because it may make it obvious to show watchers that Roose will turn out bad. Not that this matters anyway, since Roose Bolton has such an air of IM A BAD GUY HEHEHE to him in the show. (He should appear to be spooky and, when you get to know him, malevolent. This actor looks, sounds and lines give the appearance of 'I'm a yes man" and "when you get to know me, i'm a weasel".)

I actually really wish they got Paul Schulze to play Roose Bolton, interestingly. They've already hired some American actors, so that isn't an excuse, and he's also had experience with HBO before. You might know him as Ryan Chapelle in 24, Phil Intintola on The Sopranos and he's appeared in countless episodes of crime solving shows like Law & Order, CSI, etc.

He pretty much is the perfect age for Roose(obviously older, but still having an air of youth to him). has the soft "makes you listen" voice that Roose would need - although I don't know if Paul would be able to add an accent on top of that, and he is the perfect height/appearance. Average height, pretty average looks.

Oh well, wishful thinking tangent.

We don't HAVE to take it for fact. If you want to believe that Robb's story was 100% true as he said it then more power to you, but I believe it was implied he was telling a half-truth.

I know. This is why this whole thing is so great, because we don't know what's true and what's not.

[insertname]

If season 1 had not been such a damn good adaption it probably would have softened the blow to the travesty that was season 2 in regards to book purism. Yes, I'm a book purist. Not the kind that gets mad about Robb not having red hair, but the kind that gets mad when the Ramsay/Reek dynamic is removed from the show and Theon gets boncked in the head to skip the sack of Winterfell.

Here are some rules of thumb that HBO should have followed:

1) If actors are too "big time" to stick to their book screen time, don't cast them

Yeah, I'm totally going to pass this awesome actor fit really well for the role because we'd have to give him some more time than described in the sacred text....

2) Don't add any plots, EVER

What? It should be obvious why such an absolute doesn't make any sense

3)Don't change plots just because you want to (ex: Joffrey killing Robert's bastards instead of Cersei)

Agreed on that reasoning, but the question remains how often that actually happens. Joffrey killing the bastards was to show Cersei's loss of control.

4)Don't add scenes like Shae being jealous of Sansa or a sex scene just because you want that element

They didn't add that "just because they want to". It will most likele

Be one of the reasons Shae betrays Tyrion. Granted, that is only needed because ShowShae is different from BookShae, and I'm not particularly fond of that storyline, but meh

5)Characters can leave the show for several seasons (like Theon). I'm sure viewers are smart enough to remember them (The Wire managed it)

They may remember them, but apart from the likely contract reasons...how do you want to show Theon becoming Reek convincingly? Flashbacks don't work very well on TV. This is basically the same thing as in the books, just told in real time instead of flashbacks

Now, this is an opinion, but IMO I don't think a verbatim adaption to the screen is a bad thing. I love the scenes that stick to the books word for word (as rare as they are anymore). The logic that this is a bad thing implies that once you've watched something it has no replay value because you know what's going to happen.

No, the logic is that direct adaptions just don't work. Yes, the scenes taken directly from the Book are often great, but you can't do that with all scenes. It just doesn't work.

[protar]

If season 1 had not been such a damn good adaption it probably would have softened the blow to the travesty that was season 2 in regards to book purism. Yes, I'm a book purist. Not the kind that gets mad about Robb not having red hair, but the kind that gets mad when the Ramsay/Reek dynamic is removed from the show and Theon gets boncked in the head to skip the sack of Winterfell.

Here are some rules of thumb that HBO should have followed:

1) If actors are too "big time" to stick to their book screen time, don't cast them

2) Don't add any plots, EVER

3)Don't change plots just because you want to (ex: Joffrey killing Robert's bastards instead of Cersei)

4)Don't add scenes like Shae being jealous of Sansa or a sex scene just because you want that element

5)Characters can leave the show for several seasons (like Theon). I'm sure viewers are smart enough to remember them (The Wire managed it)

Now, this is an opinion, but IMO I don't think a verbatim adaption to the screen is a bad thing. I love the scenes that stick to the books word for word (as rare as they are anymore). The logic that this is a bad thing implies that once you've watched something it has no replay value because you know what's going to happen.

While I am very much a purist I would disagree with points 1 and 5.

On point 1, I guess you're talking about Charles Dance as Tywin which is why we got the Arya/Tywin scenes. Personally I feel that Dance is good enough in his role of Tywin that making some changes to accommodate him is a worthwhile payoff. That said they could easily have accommodated him whilst also staying closer to the books by focusing more on his war council rather than his grandfather relationship with Arya.

On point 5, I would say that leaving major characters out for seasons at a time would be a bad move. Firstly it can lead to viewers forgetting about them, especially someone like Theon who, if the books had been followed to the letter would have been missing for 2 whole seasons. But as you say other shows have pulled it off. The real problem of course is contracting issues. You can't just tell an actor to wait around for 2 years and make sure he's free when they need him again. With an original IP like the Wire you can do that because the entire plot likely hasn't been fully worked out, so if an actor can make it back - Great! But if he can't - oh well, just rewrite some stuff. Here, where they're adapting a source material you can't do that without potentially having to make even bigger changes down the line. Imagine what writing Theon out would mean for GOT as an adaptation.

2,3 and 4 I agree wholeheartedly and those points are just D+D thinking they can 1-up Martin, which...they can't.

[The Anti-Targ]

There's always good change and bad change in an adaptation of this sort of material. Same as LOTR. It all comes down to the balance of whether the good (and necessary) change and that which is totally faithful to the story, outweighs the bad (or unnecessary) corrupting of the source material.

I think it's judgmental of people to deride others as book purists. No one I've read has expected verbatim translation of book to screen, so no one's a purist. The book fans who hate the show hate it because their opinion is that bad change has outweighed good change and keeping faith with the source material so much that the show is unwatchable. They don't hate the show simply because of change. There's some change I hate, and in S2 it was almost enough change that I didn't buy the Blu-ray, almost. Some things still make me cringe, and there are a few scenes I don't watch, preferring to pretend they didn't happen. But in the end the positives outweighed the negatives.

[ckongo]

Note: When I say to not add plots, I mean something like "My dragons are missing!" Scenes like Jaime and Robert are fine because they don't change the story; they just produce character development which is never a bad thing.

A few rebuttals to some arguments I've heard.

1)People argue that we will almost forget Theon if he returns in season 5

That is exactly that GRRM wanted with the books. He's in the back of your mind but you don't know what is really happening to him, and then you see him dramatically changed.

Also, if actors had to be changed for Theon, that wouldn't be as big of a deal anyway. He's barely recognizable in ADWD from his former self.

2) With Theon in season 3 we get to see that Ramsay is a sick bastard and we get to see Theon's suffering

Viewers would know Ramsay is a sick bastard the same way book readers do.

I'm of the mind that Theon's suffering should be left to the imagination. It's already given me a few bad dreams. I don't want to see 2 seasons of torture, and unless they are going to diverge even more from the books, that is all there is.

3)If we don't give "so and so" this much screen time we'd lose him/her

Fine. I find people are giving actors too much credit. This "when you have Charles Dance you better well use him" logic is putting these actors on a pedestal. I suppose I've always found actors more expendable than that; certainly enough that I wouldn't change the story of a show just to have a specific hard, old man portraying Tywin.

[protar]

Note: When I say to not add plots, I mean something like "My dragons are missing!" Scenes like Jaime and Robert are fine because they don't change the story; they just produce character development which is never a bad thing.

A few rebuttals to some arguments I've heard.

1)People argue that we will almost forget Theon if he returns in season 5

That is exactly that GRRM wanted with the books. He's in the back of your mind but you don't know what is really happening to him, and then you see him dramatically changed.

Also, if actors had to be changed for Theon, that wouldn't be as big of a deal anyway. He's barely recognizable in ADWD from his former self.

2) With Theon in season 3 we get to see that Ramsay is a sick bastard and we get to see Theon's suffering

Viewers would know Ramsay is a sick bastard the same way book readers do.

I'm of the mind that Theon's suffering should be left to the imagination. It's already given me a few bad dreams. I don't want to see 2 seasons of torture, and unless they are going to diverge even more from the books, that is all there is.

3)If we don't give "so and so" this much screen time we'd lose him/her

Fine. I find people are giving actors too much credit. This "when you have Charles Dance you better well use him" logic is putting these actors on a pedestal. I suppose I've always found actors more expendable than that; certainly enough that I wouldn't change the story of a show just to have a specific hard, old man portraying Tywin.

Recasting simply doesn't go down well with audiences, and it gives a bad impression about production quality. This would be an issue with Theon as well as with Tywin. I mean Tywin was only in a couple episodes in S1, so I'm assuming Dance wasn't demanding loads more screen time back then. But then once he's cast he can start demanding more time for S2, or else he'll walk. D+D are kind of strong-armed there because one, recasting is jarring and two, it would certainly be hard to find another actor with Dance's on-screen presence. It's a bit selfish on Dance's part but this is his job and he needs to make money (and I'm assuming that the actors are paid based on how much they're in for Dance to make such a demand.). My only issue is that they could have been a bit more creative in giving Dance extra screen time.

[Independent George]

I got a kick out of Andy Greenwald going on about how Theon's plot thus far in S3 is largely uninteresting & detached from the rest of the story, and that they shouldn't have left him the story in "just because it was like that in the books."

The issue isn't fidelity to the source material; it's whether it works on its own in the television series.

[Mr Fixit]

That was terrible. Tywin would never even TALK to his servants

Right! Tywin would never sleep with a whore! Martin butchered his character! What? Did he think he was a better writer than GRRM and thought he could improve Tywin's character?

...

Anyway, that's how you sound to me.