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zaphodbrx

[Book spoilers]Locke

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Another thing I should mention is that Locke already exists in the books. He's called Steelshanks Walton.

It's not about being a kinslayer, its the way they went about it the whole scene

-why is a nobleman's son on guard duty by himself

-why does that moron enter the cage when he saw one prisoner kill another

-does Jamie really expect to escape when surrounded by thousands of northern soldiers.

-And yes, I did find it out of character for Jamie to kill -not only one of his kin- but someone who hero worshipped him a minute ago, for basically no reason. He could just have told Alton to pretend dead instead.

- Perhaps the son of a noble man was on guard duty because the prisoner is the Kingslayer? Just a thought.

- I believe Lord Karstark mentions that another of his sons was killed in a battle against the Lannister forces, so perhaps the "moron" enters the cage after seeing what Jaime has done because he wants to give out a beating to this captive who he clearly underestimates.

- I think it's pretty clear that, survive or not, Jaime is done being a complacent captive. Through dialogue he has mentioned several times in the show that he would prefer death to being shamed crippled, so his entire escape attempt felt vaguely suicidal, though I'm sure Jaime would prefer to escape with his life (as any same person likely would).

- I think this played into the mind set of either escaping or being killed. A Kingslayer and a kinslayer - how could they possibly allow him to live after what he'd done? Which is exactly why Catelyn let's him go, seeing as Littlefinger came to her with the deal Tyrion proposed (Jaime for Sansa & Arya, though as we know, Arya isn't really a part of the deal), and she had every right to believe that Jaime wouldn't last another night in the camp without Robb there.

All of this taken from the show itself; all of it requiring little more than a bit of empathy and common sense. I don't see how and why some changes are so confusing to people. It's as if they aren't capable of reconciling with they already know from the books with how things can occur on the show, and of the two don't match up then it often "makes no sense at all". Not specifically referring to you, OP whom I quoted above, just speaking more generally.

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I don't think it'll be Jaime trying to escape that'll result in him being unhanded. It'll be him stopping Brienne from being raped.

As far as Locke's motivations (re: cutting off the hand) he's familiar with his lords proclivities, so while 'Locke' may be worried about losing his head if he lets the Kingslayer go. I don't think he's afraid of losing his head for maiming him. Because Roose doesn't give a shit about exchanging Jaimie for Sansa.

Remember, at this point there is no inclination of Bolton wanting to align himself with the Lannisters so the reason he is after him is, as he stated to Karstark, to deliver the Kingslayer their brand of justice. Which includes maiming anyway. So why would Locke be worried about Roose being pissed at the process being started early?

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I don't think it'll be Jaime trying to escape that'll result in him being unhanded. It'll be him stopping Brienne from being raped.

As far as Locke's motivations, he's familiar with his lords proclivities, so while 'Locke' may be worried about losing his head if he lets the Kingslayer go. I don't think he's afraid of losing his head for maiming him. Because Roose doesn't give a shit about exchanging Jaimie for Sansa.

Remember, at this point there is no inclination of Bolton wanting to align himself with the Lannisters so the reason he is after him is, as he stated to Karstark, to deliver the Kingslayer their brand of justice. Which includes maiming anyway. So why would Locke be worried about the process being started early?

Well the problem isnt just Lockes motivation for maiming Jamie, its also why Tywin would want to align himself with the family responsible for the crippling of his son. Remember that Locke even carried the Bolton Banners, so he is obviously more than some sellsword/hunter who Roose hired for this specific mission. To quote Tywin "when soldiers lack discipline, the fault lies with their commander". He would definitely blame roose for Jamies loss. anything else would be out of character.

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Well the problem isnt just Lockes motivation for maiming Jamie, its also why Tywin would want to align himself with the family responsible for the crippling of his son. Remember that Locke even carried the Bolton Banners, so he is obviously more than some sellsword/hunter who Roose hired for this specific mission. To quote Tywin "when soldiers lack discipline, the fault lies with their commander". He would definitely blame roose for Jamies loss. anything else would be out of character.

Its not out of character. He will "forgive" house Bolton because they will bend the knee to him. If you want to use book quotes to see this is in character "When men go to their knees however, you must help them back to thier feet. Or else no one will ever bend the knee to you again"

Making a deal with House Bolten will win him control of the North and get him back his son. Roose will have made a deal with Jamie to speak on his behalf as in the books.

He won't even have to worry about the slight of their name. Because the person who put their hands on Jamie (Locke) will get his public comeuppance via the Mountain (assuming that still happens) to show you don't fuck with the Lannisters.

It will make all the sense in the world to align with house Bolton.

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I really don't have a problem with the replacement of Vargo for Locke since it's clear for me that the show is an adaptation from the books and I get the reasons that they have to not include characters and sometimes merge them, it's how it will happen on all seasons as we've seem, so I'm over it now. I just wonder as all of you how the hand event will happens.

I don't think it'll be Jaime trying to escape that'll result in him being unhanded. It'll be him stopping Brienne from being raped.

As far as Locke's motivations (re: cutting off the hand) he's familiar with his lords proclivities, so while 'Locke' may be worried about losing his head if he lets the Kingslayer go. I don't think he's afraid of losing his head for maiming him. Because Roose doesn't give a shit about exchanging Jaimie for Sansa.

Remember, at this point there is no inclination of Bolton wanting to align himself with the Lannisters so the reason he is after him is, as he stated to Karstark, to deliver the Kingslayer their brand of justice. Which includes maiming anyway. So why would Locke be worried about Roose being pissed at the process being started early?

I agree, I mean so far there's nothing that indicates on the show that Bolton is aligned with the Lanisters,

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So far Locke doesn't seem to be a maniac or psycopath, more like a loyal soldier of King Robb. This is very different from Hoat.

Unless 'give the man some silver' is actually code for 'slit his throat'..

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I don't really understand the dilemma. Couldn't Locke just be portrayed as a loose cannon type cavalier soldier who chops Jaime's hand off because he feels like it?

And then have Roose decide to jump ship after Robb beheads Karstark?

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What makes Vargo Hoat being the one that cuts Jaime's hand work is that he's a bloodthirsty mercenary brought to Westeros by Tywin Lannister himself, and it shows that "almighty" Tywin can't control the consequences of his actions and stop the brutality he promoted to hurt the ones he cares about.

So, I don't like this change, although it's not the end of the world.

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I think Jaime will get his hand cut off for somehow interfering and keeping Brienne from being raped. Whether it's sapphires like in the book or something else, he will likely find himself unable to keep his mouth shut when they go after her.

He'll succeed in saving her innocence, but lose his hand. Might be poetic.

If he loses his sword hand protecting her virtue, it would probably one of the only truly noble things he's ever done. Brienne will feel responsible and take care of him.

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What makes Vargo Hoat being the one that cuts Jaime's hand work is that he's a bloodthirsty mercenary brought to Westeros by Tywin Lannister himself, and it shows that "almighty" Tywin can't control the consequences of his actions and stop the brutality he promoted to hurt the ones he cares about.

So, I don't like this change, although it's not the end of the world.

Was Vargo actually brought to Westeros by Tywin? I just figured he was already established in Westeros and Tywin hired his mercenary group.

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I don't really understand the dilemma. Couldn't Locke just be portrayed as a loose cannon type cavalier soldier who chops Jaime's hand off because he feels like it?

And then have Roose decide to jump ship after Robb beheads Karstark?

Exactly. If Lord Tywin can have loose cannons such as Gregor Clegane (smashing Elia and her children), why can't Roose Bolton have exactly the same problem? Don't forget that Book Roose knows nothing about Hoat chopping off Jaime's hand until Hoat brings Jaime and Brienne back to Harrenhal, and their journey lasts nearly a week. Hoat in turn doesn't know of the Roose/Tywin plot, so he has no idea that returning a maimed Kinglsayer is going to cause problems. When he finds out what has been done, Roose worries about Tywin's reaction because in the meantime, he has jumped ship. So we get that 'delicate' dinner table conversation where Jaime assures Roose that if he is returned safely to KL, he will tell his father whatever story Roose wants.

I can't see why that basic scenario shouldn't play out just as well with a loose cannon Locke instead of Hoat. Simplifying the story this way is probably one of the easiest and most sensible alterations from book to screen.

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We really don't know how Jaime gets maimed. It's possible that he will try to escape/save Brienne and Locke just heavily wounds him during that event, with no Maester around to deal with the wound it gets worse and by the time Jaime gets to Harrenhal it's so bad Quyburn has to remove the entire hand.

Although I think Locke will just cut the entire hand off for some reason like Vargo.

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I think Jaime will get his hand cut off for somehow interfering and keeping Brienne from being raped. Whether it's sapphires like in the book or something else, he will likely find himself unable to keep his mouth shut when they go after her.

He'll succeed in saving her innocence, but lose his hand. Might be poetic.

If he loses his sword hand protecting her virtue, it would probably one of the only truly noble things he's ever done. Brienne will feel responsible and take care of him.

I too think it's going to go down this way. On the show we don't have the privilege to read Jaime's thoughts, so they need something more direct to show us he's not all bad, because up to now he has mostly been a murderous ass, albeit a very funny one. Showing him losing his hand while protecting Brienne would change opinions very quickly. I just hope he doesn't blame her.

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They should havwe just made him Steelshanks Walton, soooooooooooo much better of a name that Locke.

Steelshanks has been cast already (check imdb).

They need one Bolton soldier to take the hand off and a different one to take Jaime to KL so Tywin doesn't blame Roose.

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Maybe, and I'm not saying this is what I want, but maybe it's not Locke who cuts off Jaime's hand but one of his more loose-cannon and crazy soldiers. Locke might get pissed off and kill the guy, or think it's not important, but realize the full consequence when they get back to Harrenhal. This would keep in character with Locke's somewhat more calm and less blood-thirsty demeanor than Vargo's.

It probably won't happen like this, as having Locke do it will make him have more significance, but just a thought. We know D&D aren't opposed to changing up how certain events happen.

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I think they can make this work easily enough -- via either Locke or a henchman of his being especially cruel and/or a loose cannon -- but I don't think they'll be able to make the motivation nearly as interesting as what goes down in the book. Too bad, but that's the nature of the beast I think. And it's just one of the things show fans will have the chance to reflect on if they ever read the books.

That's what I try to tell myself anyway. I would be much happier if they could develop a reason why Locke and Roose have different interests in the matter, though. We'll just have to see how it goes. I love the casting, though, great screen presence with almost no time to establish it. I did kind of wish Locke or his men had killed the informer, but I can see why they might not want to go down that road.

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I agree, I mean so far there's nothing that indicates on the show that Bolton is aligned with the Lannisters,

Of course there hasn't been anything on the show to indicate Bolton is aligned with the Lannisters - that would spoil the RW. Roose isn't just returning Jaime in hopes that Tywin will go easy on him as a reward; as we know, Jaime won't get to King's Landing until well after the RW. The plans for the RW are more than likely already in motion, and Roose's motivation to keep Jaime in one piece is as Tywin's new ally, not just his hopeful new ally.

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I don't mind that they replace Vargo Hoat with Locke and makes him a Bolton solider and I understand why they do it.

However I am going to miss Shagwell and the rest of the pshycos that makes up the Brave Companions. Oh, and all of Hoat's hilarious dialouge as well.

I agree with this. the brave companions pop up later in the books in some pretty memorable and awesome scenes. Brienne killing shagwell timeon and pyg in AFFC was awesome. Also theres the epic scene with her being attacked by biter and co later on. These scenes arent awesome just cause brienne is being bad ass, they are awesome cause she has history with these bloody mummers and they make you say "fuck yea!" when they happen. Stuff like this will be missing from the show now sadly, which is a shame. Sure you can have these bolton men be the ones who fight brienne later on, but its just not gonna be the same. oh well i guess.

What would be very disappointing is if jaime loses his hand in a sword fight with locke. NO. he has to get it cut off while being defenseless. it doesnt really work the other way if u ask me.

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I too think it's going to go down this way. On the show we don't have the privilege to read Jaime's thoughts, so they need something more direct to show us he's not all bad, because up to now he has mostly been a murderous ass, albeit a very funny one. Showing him losing his hand while protecting Brienne would change opinions very quickly. I just hope he doesn't blame her.

Yes! He does blame her in the books as well, though. When he worries about her getting raped after leaving her at Harrenhal, he's like "Why do I even care? I'd still have my sword hand if it wasn't for her" or something, and him telling her "No wonder Renly's dead with you protecting him" or whatever, but then he immediately feels bad about it and apologizes. His feelings will probably be conflicted. I can't wait to see how it all plays out!

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The simplest way is to have Lord Karstark, instead of Locke, cut his hand and thus, Robb has to execute him to prevent Sansa being maimed.

Lord Karstark, however, seems to be going to Riverrun. If Locke takes Jaime to Riverrun instead of Harrenhal, though, that's easily arranged. It would explain Robb's line about 'I could have your head in a spike' or something like that, while still allowing the Lannister-Bolton alliance.

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