The Jon Snow ReRead Project!

[Ludd]

Just had a thought, related to Jon and the death of Brandon and Rickard and the statues etc

Both were Lords (Rickard died first) so Brandon was entitled to a place in the crypts and a statue. However possibly both two were Kings (of Winter). Was Aerys trying to create a dragon

[Mladen]

Just had a thought, related to Jon and the death of Brandon and Rickard and the statues etc

Both were Lords (Rickard died first) so Brandon was entitled to a place in the crypts and a statue. However possibly both two were Kings (of Winter). Was Aerys trying to create a dragon

There were never eggs involved that we know of, and I think the remaining eggs Targaryens had perished in Summerhall. And, Rickard and Brandon were no KIngs, they were Lords.

[Lady of Long Lake]

A couple more things I noticed inJon 6:

After Sam and Jon knelt and said their vows, The woods fell silent. "You knelt as boys," Bowen intoned solemnly."Rise now as men of the Night's Watch."

Prior to that moment, we hear lots of noises. Snow is being crunched under feet and it sounds like breaking bones. Leaves are rustling in the wind and that made Jon's get tingles up his spine. But the moment the vow was done, the forest fell silent. It was as if the forest held it's breath, or shushed itself in reverence. I find that very mystical because forests are never silent and people and animals tend to shift around. Any movement would make the snow crunch and shatter the silence. Time seemed to freeze for a few seconds and nothing moved.

And suddenly Ghost was back, stalking softly between two weirwoods. White fur and red eyes, Jon realized, disquieted. Like the trees....

This shocks me that Jon didn't notice this till NOW. Jon's eyes don't miss much. All I can figure is that Jon is a deeply UNreligious boy and never spent any time in front of a weirwood. Why wouldn't he have mimicked his father's praying habits? He loved Ned to bits and you'd think he would have wanted to share time with Ned in the Godswood. The word "disquieted" is a strange reaction too. It has a bit of a negative connotation to it. The word "surprised" would have sufficed, but George chose "disquieted" to show that Jon is not comfortable with the Old Gods, perhaps? Sansa and Arya seemed comfortable enough being around the weirwoods.

Or is his blindness to their similar coloring willful? Nah, I don't think so.

[Ludd]

Mladen

In the magic world I think that whether the Starks kneeled or not may be irrelevant. They are still kings of Winter for dragons.

Khal Drogo was not a "king" just a horse lord

[Ludd]

Lady

I think perhaps Jon was used to the winterfell heart tree. He was seeing it in a new light

[Mladen]

Mladen

In the magic world I think that whether the Starks kneeled or not may be irrelevant. They are still kings of Winter for dragons.

OK, you have a royal blood. But, you don`t have the eggs. And that`s another big issue.

[JackinAcar]

I was hoping for the Jon Snow Redhead project. They're lucky, it's said.

[Ludd]

Mladen

Perhaps it is not just the Dragons but also the dragon riders or mystical figures like Lightbringer

Note that Rhaegar was born after two kings died, Dany was conceived after two kings died (Aerys and Rhaegar or Aerys and Aegon)

[Mladen]

Mladen

Perhaps it is not just the Dragons but also the dragon riders or mystical figures like Lightbringer

Note that Rhaegar was born after two kings died, Dany was conceived after two kings died (Aerys and Rhaegar or Aerys and Aegon)

Again I am derailing the thread. I would call Athos to discipline me a bit :)

Well, the logic isn`t good, since Dany was born after 7 members of the Royal family died (Rhaegar, Aerys, Aegon, Elia, Rhaenys, Lyanna, Rhaella). Rhaegar was born after 2 members and their party died, and as for the situation when Starks were burned, one was King and other was Prince if you like it. So, I don`t think Aerys was trying anything more than to punish Starks and made a spectacle for his own perverse enjoyment

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Mladen

Perhaps it is not just the Dragons but also the dragon riders or mystical figures like Lightbringer

Note that Rhaegar was born after two kings died, Dany was conceived after two kings died (Aerys and Rhaegar or Aerys and Aegon)

1. The Rhaegar thing depends on who died first, Aegon V or Duncan the Small. And actually, seeing as Duncan supposedly gave up his crown for Jenny of Oldstones, he wouldn't have been king even if Aegon V had died before him.

2. How can Dany be conceived after two kings have died when, in both of your examples, one of the kings is her father? Did you mean born?

3. We know that Aerys died before Aegon, making Aegon technically king for that brief period of time. We also know that Jon was born right around the time of the Sack or very shortly thereafter. So if you're arguing that angle for "two kings to wake the dragon," based on what we know, Jon fits it better than either Rhaegar or Dany.

[Winterfellian]

After years of being outcast, the bastard, Jon finally comes to being accepted. Oh, he was loved and cherished in Winterfell, but his last name was a shadow over family union. Now, that shadow is gone. He is fully accepted in this society. And not just that. This like the motto of French revolution. Liberte, egalite, fraternite. And it would fit into the vows of NW. They are free from shackels of old life, crimes they had commited, and sins that may have not been theirs. They are equal at the Wall, and there is strong sentiment of brotherhood. Just like the old, authoritarian France died with revolution, the lives of these recruits died after they take vows. And Jon finally becomes equal with those he calls `brothers`.

Sorry Mladen, but I don't entirely agree with you here. I think the moment isn't so much about acceptance but about binding people together. From Jon's words in ADWD:

The words matters...they bind us all together, highborn and low, young and old, based and noble. They make us brothers.

Acceptance on the other hand cannot be easily gained (Waymar Royce and Allyser Thorne are proof of this) After all, at the wall you get what you earn. Acceptance is gained, but not by words but by acts. Jon's acceptance came prior to this, where he let go of his entitlement and befriended the other boys. The moment at the godswood serve to cement something that Jon already felt- that outcasts like Sam, Gren and Pyp were his brothers now.

Something that doesn't necessarily sit well with me is the speech by Mormont. I find a "floppy ear" quality to it:

“You came to us outlaws,” he began, “poachers, rapers, debtors, killers, and thieves. You came to us children. You came to us alone, in chains, with neither friends nor honor. You came to us rich, and you came to us poor. Some of you bear the names of proud houses. Others have only bastards’ names, or no names at all. It makes no matter. All that is past now. On the Wall, we are all one house.

Oh yes the words are pretty, and I don't know if it just me, but I find them rather empty due to his lack of his presence when Jon and Sam swore their vows, especially when contrasted with Jon doing exactly the opposite when he becomes LC. Given that the boys were given to the head of each order I will venture that it was Othell and Jaremy Rykker along with the drunken septon the ones who witnessed the oath ceremony at the sept, as Bowen Marsh did for Sam and Jon. I think this resonates with the the man who passes the sentence should swing the sword.

These boys are shedding their pasts behind and embracing this new house as Mormont calls it and yet he, the head of the House, isn't present to witness this. If the words matter why isn't he there and instead we get someone else doing it by proxy? Ragnorak pointed out how much allusions in regards to the traditions of the first men are in Ned's chapters, where Ned's views completely collide with those of LF.

I find Mormont's in-attendance against this very traditions. After all, one of the first things we hear Jon say is do not look away

[WinterKing]

You know that there is something called old age,right?

After all,he was the OLD bear.

[Winterfellian]

You know that there is something called old age,right?

After all,he was the OLD bear.

And yet he decided to lead a ranging party months later when he was even older. He made the same journey in the following chapter and doesn't seem worse for wear after it. Even so, he's not a feeble man (Tyrion notes his strength when he's dining with him prior to his departure) and the grove is less than two hours away and the weather was particularly fine. And like I said I suspect that the ones taking their vows in the sept were given the same treatment.

[Mladen]

Sorry Mladen, but I don't entirely agree with you here. I think the moment isn't so much about acceptance but about binding people together. From Jon's words in ADWD:

First, no need for appologies. I know last night was tough with that poster, but I am fine. Today everyone seems to appologize for not agreeing with me :). well that`s better than wishing me death :)

Winterfellian, I was thinking interms of his last name, and bastard status. And this group of variety of criminals, outcasts, bastards is now socially accepted into a group where this crimes are forgotten. This becomes Jon`s new family, the one which doesn`t care about his bastard status, or at least, far less than society outside the NW.

[Harlaw's Book]

Sorry Mladen, but I don't entirely agree with you here. I think the moment isn't so much about acceptance but about binding people together. From Jon's words in ADWD:

Acceptance on the other hand cannot be easily gained (Waymar Royce and Allyser Thorne are proof of this) After all, at the wall you get what you earn. Acceptance is gained, but not by words but by acts. Jon's acceptance came prior to this, where he let go of his entitlement and befriended the other boys. The moment at the godswood serve to cement something that Jon already felt- that outcasts like Sam, Gren and Pyp were his brothers now.

Something that doesn't necessarily sit well with me is the speech by Mormont. I find a "floppy ear" quality to it:

Oh yes the words are pretty, and I don't know if it just me, but I find them rather empty due to his lack of his presence when Jon and Sam swore their vows, especially when contrasted with Jon doing exactly the opposite when he becomes LC. Given that the boys were given to the head of each order I will venture that it was Othell and Jaremy Rykker along with the drunken septon the ones who witnessed the oath ceremony at the sept, as Bowen Marsh did for Sam and Jon. I think this resonates with the the man who passes the sentence should swing the sword.

These boys are shedding their pasts behind and embracing this new house as Mormont calls it and yet he, the head of the House, isn't present to witness this. If the words matter why isn't he there and instead we get someone else doing it by proxy? Ragnorak pointed out how much allusions in regards to the traditions of the first men are in Ned's chapters, where Ned's views completely collide with those of LF.

I find Mormont's in-attendance against this very traditions. After all, one of the first things we hear Jon say is do not look away

Winterfellian, I agree with you that it seems like southern values have made a big impact on Mormont and the Watch as an institution. And because we don't see the Old Bear watching training sessions or going outside his tower much (isn't this first chapter we see him outside his chambers), I get the feeling that at this point in the story, he isn't as much of a hands on leader. Besides the aforementioned reasons, I think the reason for the behavior is the Old Bear suffering from his own disillusionment --in the Watch and probably for personal reasons as well --and lack of purpose. He makes an effort, but I don't think his heart is really in it. Thus, later events have the silver lining getting the Old Bear to wake up and take charge, and it probably makes him happier than he has been in years. I think Jon inheriting that purpose factors into why Jon will be more hands on in ADWD.

[Manderlay]

The Wall as a Feminine Symbol

I'm not sure if I'm missing something, but I don't find anything particularly "feminine" about the Wall as a whole. Architectural theory tends to put walls into either neutral or masculine territory ("masculine" relating to the fact that they territorialize, tend to enable a "gaze", etc). I'm inclined to see this particular 700 foot Wall as gender neutral-to- potentially masculine given that it's extraordinarily territorial, is not an enclosure but a shield, and is used to visually "colonize" from it's privileged height.

With that said, I think that stripped of the conventional gender symbols, there's a lot to be analyzed in terms of the Wall's territorialization, creation of vulnerabilities, proliferation and censoring of vantages, divisions, etc.

I have to agree with you and @nirolo , the wall didn't strike me as feminine, it has been suggested that the NW is married to the wall, whereas I think they are married to the realm, the realm is feminine, it can be viewed as their mother also and one of the purposes for the existence of the NW, the vows they take bind them to the realm and not the wall, the wall is their post from where the NW defends the realm, In Jon's future chapters we see this more clearly as his priority is to protect all the people of the realm, not just defend the wall. The Realm provides and nourishes its people that cant be said of the wall, its only function is forming a border and an defensive structure. The wall represents a reality check for Jon and the NW.

While reading the series, I never got the sense of the wall as feminine, but I do see the realm as feminine.

[nirolo]

This is interesting because we see that a lot in the Campbellian journies. Some recent examples that leap to mind are the actual mirrors in Harry Potter and the Neverending Story and Luke's experience in the cave on Dagobah. In each case, there is a reflection of the hero's innermost workings (desires, fears, who he really is at his core). The Mirror teaches the hero something about who he really is that he knows subconsciously, but which needs to be brought to the surface. Wrt the Wall, everyone who comes there is stripped of identity to a large degree, so the Wall as a Mirror in the sense of providing information about the Hero is an interesting concept. Not so much as a literal mirror, but in how Jon perceives the Wall, perhaps? Certainly his perception of the Wall changes over the course of the books, as does his perception of himself. I'm spitballing here, but I like the idea anyway.

Of course not a literal mirror! Though maybe it could be a literal mirror in the sense that it deflects the Others' magic away...*cough* crackpot *cough*.

Jokes aside, I would speculate alongside you that Jon's perception of the Wall reveals to us Jon's subconscious -- an emotional litmus to borrow the words of butterbumps!.

And after reading more into what a wall might represent, I am almost certain there is much more to the Wall than what we have explored thus far.

[Ludd]

Mladen

I am talking about two different things

Dany's dragons were born after two kings died - Drogo and Rhaego (ie it assumes that Drogo dies first, so both die kings). Dragons arrived in this situation

The same may have happened at Summerhall. Rhaegar was born at this instant

My speculation was that if the Stars are the KINGS of winter then two kings died first Rickard then Brandon, both Kings even if Brandon only for a minute or two. Any child born or conceived at or about this time might be fulfilling some prophesy or other. However we have no obvious candidate unless

1. A child of Ashara Dayne conceived at Harrenhall was born at just that time - ? Jon but it makes him a year too old

2. Jon was conceived at just that time (possible Ned was in the Eyrie) and Rhaegar and Lyanna were together. This would put Jon in the frame but born seems more important than conceived so ????

3. Some other child of either a Targ or Stark was born just as the two Starks died

The same is true of Aerys who died closely followed by ?? Aegon. Now we sort of know that Dany was conceived at just about this time and that Jon was born. Both could be candidates but it assumes Young Griff is a fake

[Lummel]

...And suddenly Ghost was back, stalking softly between two weirwoods. White fur and red eyes, Jon realized, disquieted. Like the trees....

This shocks me that Jon didn't notice this till NOW. Jon's eyes don't miss much...

Yes I thought that was interesting too.

My take on it is that this is GRRM unlining the significance for the reader. This is the first time that we see Jon before a weirwood in the story, this is a point when GRRM is increasing the magical side of the story - we have the shock of the recognition of the connection between Ghost and the weirwood and the discovery of the mysterious hand.

...Something that doesn't necessarily sit well with me is the speech by Mormont. I find a "floppy ear" quality to it...

Oh yes the words are pretty, and I don't know if it just me, but I find them rather empty due to his lack of his presence when Jon and Sam swore their vows, especially when contrasted with Jon doing exactly the opposite when he becomes LC. Given that the boys were given to the head of each order I will venture that it was Othell and Jaremy Rykker along with the drunken septon the ones who witnessed the oath ceremony at the sept, as Bowen Marsh did for Sam and Jon. I think this resonates with the the man who passes the sentence should swing the sword.

These boys are shedding their pasts behind and embracing this new house as Mormont calls it and yet he, the head of the House, isn't present to witness this. If the words matter why isn't he there and instead we get someone else doing it by proxy? Ragnorak pointed out how much allusions in regards to the traditions of the first men are in Ned's chapters, where Ned's views completely collide with those of LF.

I find Mormont's in-attendance against this very traditions. After all, one of the first things we hear Jon say is do not look away

There is another point in AGOT when Mormont says something that suggests he's not a believer or alienated in some way from the faith of the old gods. He is comfortable speaking in the Sept though and seems to think that appearing the once to the new intake is good enough.

... I think the reason for the behavior is the Old Bear suffering from his own disillusionment --in the Watch and probably for personal reasons as well --and lack of purpose. He makes an effort, but I don't think his heart is really in it...

Yes, I'd agree this tallies with what we see in Tyrion III AGOT and we know that Mormont only joined the watch to allow his son to take the title in order to impress his fancy Hightower wife. The old man's life has gone sour in several ways then, he's a pretty disillusioned old bear at this stage.

[Mladen]

Mladen

I am talking about two different things

Dany's dragons were born after two kings died - Drogo and Rhaego (ie it assumes that Drogo dies first, so both die kings). Dragons arrived in this situation

The same may have happened at Summerhall. Rhaegar was born at this instant

My speculation was that if the Stars are the KINGS of winter then two kings died first Rickard then Brandon, both Kings even if Brandon only for a minute or two. Any child born or conceived at or about this time might be fulfilling some prophesy or other. However we have no obvious candidate unless

1. A child of Ashara Dayne conceived at Harrenhall was born at just that time - ? Jon but it makes him a year too old

2. Jon was conceived at just that time (possible Ned was in the Eyrie) and Rhaegar and Lyanna were together. This would put Jon in the frame but born seems more important than conceived so ????

3. Some other child of either a Targ or Stark was born just as the two Starks died

The same is true of Aerys who died closely followed by ?? Aegon. Now we sort of know that Dany was conceived at just about this time and that Jon was born. Both could be candidates but it assumes Young Griff is a fake

Targaryens are all about trinity - it`s three heads of dragons, it`s not 2 Kings for one. And even with that, you have a big problem of putting that theory together since Aerys, Aegon was the two Kings, but if Rhaenys was killed after Aegon, and before Jon was born, she would be Queen, whic makes three Kings, then you have deaths of Elia, who was briefly between Aerys` and Aegon`s death a Queen mother, than Lyanna`s who would be Queen Mother after the deaths of Elia and her children, and after Lyanna died, Rhaella was the third Queen Mother that died. So you have before Dany`s birth the death of 1 Prince, 3 Kings, and 3 Queen Mothers. It just doesn`t fit, I am sorry.