The Jon Snow ReRead Project!

[butterbumps!]

Welcome to the Jon Snow reread project, the place to take a microscopic and measured look at this popular character’s bildungsroman: an “outsider on the inside” who struggles with arrogance, honor, shifting perspectives and the burdens of leadership.

Co-conspirating this mission are Lummel and Ragnorak; we aim to present summaries for each of the 47 Jon chapters at a rate of about 1 per week in order to reread, analyze and be critical.

This isn’t an appreciation thread, but rather, a space to look beyond the broad strokes of Jon’s arc to bring the subtleties of his character into greater relief for discussion. (Similarly, unsubstantiated criticism is strongly discouraged). This isn’t about winning over sides, but impartial analytical discussion.

A preliminary list of themes we believe are apropos to kick things off are mentoring and leadership, honor, oaths, self-control, morality, perspective and power. Discussion is by no means limited to these elements, and as we proceed this list will undoubtedly grow.

For the best possible discussion, we ask the following:

Please DON’T: Analyze future chapters. References to future events are fine but otherwise stick with the current or past chapters.

Please DON’T: Snipe with someone you disagree with – it's boring for everyone else and spoils the thread. State your opinion, give your evidence and agree to differ.

Please DO: Compare and contrast with other POVs. GRRM is fond of creating parallel scenes and role reversals.

Please DO: Show the support in the text for your views.

chapter links!

aGoT Jon I (King's banquet at Winterfell)

aGoT Jon II (Jon says goodbyes to his family)

aGoT Jon III (At the Wall, Donal lectures Jon; Jon receives news of Bran)

aGoT Jon IV (Sam arrives; Jon reveals his dream of the crypts)

aGoT Jon V (Jon is told he's promoted; appeals to Aemon on behalf of Sam)

aGoT Jon VI (Sam is promoted; Jon and Sam take their vows; Ghost finds a hand)

aGoT Jon VII (ranging party studies bodies of Othor and Jafer; crypt dream; Jon gets news of Ned's treason; Jon fights Othor the wight)

aGoT Jon VIII (Jon gets Longclaw; news of Robb's march; Aemon's "love is the bane of honor" conversation)

[butterbumps!]

Ordinarily, we’ll focus only on Jon’s own POV chapters; however, we will cover adjacent POVs when the chapter in question has a specific focus on Jon in order to widen the perspective on his character. Bran I is one such chapter, so we will begin our project there. (I’m omitting the parts of the chapter that don’t directly pertain to Jon, however)

Bran I, aGoT

(our introduction to Jon Snow)

overview

Bran accompanies his father, Jon, Robb and his father’s men to “see the king’s justice done:” a deserter of the NW is executed by Ned’s own hand. On their return to Winterfell, Jon and Robb find a litter of direwolf pups. After Jon sacrifices his chance of having his own pup for the sake of his half-siblings, he comes across a pure white one that had wandered off from the others, which he claims for himself.

analysis

setting the tone

It’s highly significant that our first introduction of Jon Snow is through the eyes of a younger brother who idolizes him. I think it’s worth noting that there’s a very deliberate craft occurring here. The way the characters are introduced early in aGoT really tends to frame how we engage with them subsequently; the Bran I paints a particularly positive light of his character, and as part of the reread process, I think this view ought to be challenged, that is, we shouldn’t gloss over developments that run counter to the laudable and “heroic” tone this chapter sets.

“Don’t look away”

Despite the fact that Robb is Bran’s full brother, it’s his “bastard brother,” Jon, who offers Bran advice, and about whom Bran ruminates. It probably goes without stating that from the outset, we’re meant to understand Ned and Jon as foils of sorts; Jon as the clear inheritor of Ned’s person even if Robb is his material successor. Bran lets us know that Jon is 14 years old and “an old hand at justice.” It can be inferred that all of the advice Ned gives Bran here has been passed onto Jon as well, much of which contains foreshadowing.

One of the lines that I think will end up having a lot of significance later is Jon’s advice to face the execution: “Don’t look away. Father will know if you do.” Watching, seeing, looking and observing are constant motifs in Jon’s arc that play out multiply; further, the issue of desertion and execution hangs over Jon’s character ominously.

Brave or Afraid, Desertion, Execution

The contrast set up between Robb and Jon leaves a strong impression that has future manifestations. Robb comes across with more levity and idealism while Jon is grave and realistic: Robb focuses on the deserter’s courage, proclaiming that the man died bravely, while Jon notes the man’s fear. The boys gallop off, Robb shouting and laughing, Jon “sullen and intent.”

Some of Ned’s advice ought to be extracted for discussion, as it frames not only our perception of “honorable,” but also sets up thematic motifs that reappear over Jon’s arc:

Bran thought about it. “Can a man still be brave if he’s afraid?”

“That is the only time a man can be brave,” his father told him.

In truth, the man was an oathbreaker, a deserter from the Night’s Watch. No man is more dangerous. The deserter knows his life is forfeit if he is taken, so he will not flinch from any crime, no matter how vile.

The blood of the First Men still flows in the veins of the Starks, and we hold to the belief that the man who passes the sentence should swing the sword. If you would take a man’s life, you owe it to him to look into his eyes and hear his final words. And if you cannot bear to do that, then perhaps the man does not deserve to die… When that day comes, you must take no pleasure in the task, but neither must you look away. A ruler

who hides behind paid executioners soon forgets what death is.”

The sacrifice

The most notable part of this chapter for the sake of character development is the passage in which Jon intentionally foregoes his own direwolf pup in order to spare their lives:

“Lord Stark,” Jon said. It was strange to hear him call Father that, so formal. Bran looked at him with desperate hope. “There are five pups,” he told Father.

“Three male, two female.”

“What of it, Jon?”

“You have five trueborn children,” Jon said. “Three sons, two daughters. The direwolf is the sigil of your House. Your children were meant to have these pups, my lord.”

Bran saw his father’s face change, saw the other men exchange glances. He loved Jon with all his heart at that moment. Even at seven, Bran understood what his brother had done. The count had come right only because Jon had omitted himself. He had included the girls, included even Rickon, the baby, but not the bastard who bore the surname Snow, the name that custom decreed be given to all those in the north unlucky enough to be born with no name of their own.

Their father understood as well. “You want no pup for yourself, Jon?” he asked softly.

“The direwolf graces the banners of House Stark,” Jon pointed out. “I am no Stark, Father.”

For readers, this passage tends to cement the view of Jon as an unfairly oppressed outsider, willing to self-exclude in order to save the lives of pups and enable his legitimate siblings he won’t be able to partake in. It really sums up the notion of Jon as an extremely worthy character, forcing us to challenge and discard the societal impositions of class and status almost immediately, and from here, it would seem Jon’s arc has an “everyman’s” aspect. Though this “common outsider” quality is indeed part of Jon’s character, it’s important to note that he’s hardly an outsider, common, or unprivileged in nearly any sense of those terms.

Opened eyes

As the party leaves the scene of the pups, something singularly catches Jon’s attention and he swings back. From the woods he returns with an albino pup that had either wandered or been driven away from the pup’s siblings. Jon vehemently claims this as his own, despite Theon’s insistence that an albino would die “faster than the others.”

In the next chapter, Jon states that “bastards grow up faster than other children.” Only Jon’s wolf has opened its eyes, reflecting both the notion of “growing up faster,” as well as reinforcing a theme of Jon as “Watcher” from the outset: attentive, mature, related yet different, awake. It’s also notable that Jon alone heard the noise that brought him back to the white wolf. We soon learn that Ghost is completely mute, yet he was able to catch Jon’s attention here. I suspect that Jon may have been the first Stark to warg with his familiar from this.

[butterbumps!]

(ok, sorry to spam, I wanted to split up these two entries)

Jon I, aGoT

(aka “Reflections on Bastardy”)

overview

From the back of Winterfell’s banquet hall, Jon observes the feast thrown in Robert’s honor while getting thoroughly drunk. His uncle, Benjen, leaves the table of honor to join him, and Jon “impulsively” asks him to bring him back to the Night’s Watch to take the oath. Benjen unintentionally pushes a few of Jon’s buttons, resulting in a spectacle as Jon drunkenly fumbles outside for air. Once outside, Tyrion, who has also left the feast, strikes up conversation and offers Jon some “life coaching.”

observations

We learn that Daeron Targaryen, the “Young Dragon,” is one of Jon’s heroes: “A conquest that lasted a summer,” his uncle pointed out. “Your Boy King lost ten thousand men taking the place, and another fifty trying to hold it. Someone should have told him that war isn’t a game.” He took another sip of wine. “Also,” he said, wiping his mouth, “Daeren Targaryen was only eighteen when he died. Or have you forgotten that part?”

analysis

I find that the tone of Jon’s character stands in strong contrast to the image we saw through Bran’s eyes in the previous chapter. Where Jon had appeared solemn, sober, observant and dignified, here Jon is literally drunk, impulsive, emotional and rather undignified. The difference in the setting undoubtedly accounts for part of this tone change; a ribald feast versus a solemn lesson in justice. Also of import is the difference in POV; where Jon is Bran’s big brother and thus cast with mature reverence, Jon’s POV really puts into perspective just how young and still immature the boy truly is.

Jon’s thoughts on being a bastard

At the outset of the chapter, we’re told that Jon’s bastard status is not something he feels positively about the vast majority of time. Indeed, there’s a pervasive edge of bitterness cutting through the chapter as we learn that Jon sits apart from the rest of his family not by choice, but as an observation of decorum: “[i eat with my family] most times, but tonight Lady Stark thought it might give insult to the royal family to seat a bastard among them.” Further, his bastard status wins him little acknowledgement from the royal parties, though it’s clear from his talk with Benjen that recognition of ability is something he strongly craves. These facets continue the previous chapter’s remarks of the unfair treatment of bastards, putting the reader in a position to side with Jon’s appeals for worth to derive from merit rather than birth status (and, by extension, to view those who subscribe to decorous ideals as potentially less worthwhile).

Through the bitterness, Jon notes a few brighter sides to being a bastard, such as getting drunk: “In honor of the occasion, his lord father would doubtless permit each child a glass of wine, but no more than that. Down here on the benches, there was no one to stop Jon drinking as much as he had a thirst for.” Excluded from the royals, Jon “relishes” the company of the household boys he shares his meal with, exchanging stories of hunting and sexual exploits. He reflects that this company is likely more entertaining than that of the Lannisters, who he’s decided to be largely insipid. Another “joy” of being a bastard is the fact that Ghost is allowed by his side, sharing a meal as one of his companions, a luxury his siblings are excluded from due to propriety.

It’s also worth mentioning that Jon frequently serves as a kind of litmus for reader’s opinions of other characters, that is, the way other characters interact with Jon often colors our view of them (I think intentionally on Martin’s part). Those who ignore Jon tend to come across as superficial and malicious, while those who “see beyond the bastardy” tend to be regarded more positively. I believe the entry scene plays into many of our character impressions based on their level of interaction with Jon here.

The effects of being a bastard

Generally speaking, the benefits of being a bastard boil down to a certain freedom in being considered “un-notable” by the “notables.” In Jon’s case, it involves less oversight when he wants to act out and drink, but also positions him to study people without their notice. The entry procession is especially revealing, as “Jon had gotten a good long look at them all:”

Cersei: Jon recognizes her beauty, but “the queen never so much as looked at him. Even at 14, Jon could see through her smile.”

Robert: “The king was a great disappointment…Jon saw only a fat man, red-faced under his beard, sweating through his silks.”

Myrcella/ Robb: “He decided she was insipid. Robb didn’t even have the sense to realize how stupid she was; he was grinning like a fool.”

Sansa/ Joffrey: “Sansa looked radiant as she walked beside him, but Jon did not like Joffrey’s pouty lips or the bored, disdainful way he looked at Winterfell’s Great Hall.”

Jaime/ Tyrion: “He was more interested in the queen’s brothers…The Lion and the Imp…[Jaime] is what a king should look like…Jon watched [Tyrion] with fascination.”

Benjen/ Theon: “Benjen gave Jon a warm smile as he went by. Theon ignored him utterly.”

Jon is presented here as an “objective” observer, able to look beyond social trappings as someone who “excluded:” “A bastard had to notice things, to read the truth that people hid behind their eyes.” Benjen, a man of the Night’s Watch who has also become “excluded” from trappings, later confirms Jon’s initial assessment of the guests. When Jon observes that the queen is angry, Benjen looks at Jon “measuringly” and “carefully,” reinforcing Jon’s stellar observation skills**: “You don’t miss much, do you, Jon? We could sure use a man like you at the Wall.”

**I think that some of Jon’s observations are less objective than they appear, notably the one about Myrcella’s insipidness. Nonetheless, I think we’re “supposed” to view this scene as a key indication of Jon’s ability to this end.

Joining the NW as birth control measure

Benjen posits the notion of joining the Watch as a means of flattery, and Jon seemingly impulsively asks his uncle to take him to the Wall to join. However, it’s actually something Jon has considered at some length previously: “He had thought on it, long and hard, lying abed at night while his brothers slept around him…What place could a bastard hope to earn?”

Benjen is hesitant; he insists that Jon think it over more (in his drunken state, Jon’s presented this as an impulsive pipe dream rather than something measured and considered). Benjen believes that Jon is too young to make the choice to give up so much: “The Night’s Watch is a sworn brotherhood. We have no families. None of us will ever father sons. Our wife is duty. Our mistress is honor…You are a boy of 14. Not until you have known a woman, you cannot understand what you would be giving up.” Benjen thoroughly insists that vows should only be spoken when the true price known: “If you knew what the oath would cost you, you might be less eager to pay the price, son.”

Jon reaches a breaking point when Benjen counsels him to “father a few bastards of [his] own” before making the choice. Before realizing the escalation, Jon loudly states that he will “never father a bastard,” creating a scene that draws considerable attention. The hall was described as irritatingly smoky throughout the chapter, threatening to induce his tears, and now they finally come as he runs “half blind” out of the hall. Alone outside, he wipes his tears, “furious that he had let them fall.”

Tyrion’s “Bastard Self Help Manual”

Before Jon can walk away, Tyrion calls out to him, breaking the ice with questions about Ghost. Like Jon, Tyrion is also an “outsider within,” and he creates a sympathetic common ground by acknowledging their shared drunkenness and resultant impropriety. Tyrion is quite curious about Ghost, but the pup is initially suspicious of the Lannister. Jon proudly states that he’s been training his pet, and does get Ghost to allow Tyrion’s touch on command.

Tyrion simply asks Jon if he’s in fact “Ned Stark’s bastard,” which immediately interrupts Jon’s recently mollified demeanor: “Jon felt a coldness pass right through him. He pressed his lips together and said nothing.” Realizing Jon’s discomfort, Tyrion apologizes, but firmly restates the question. Reluctantly, Jon admits that Ned is his father, and takes quiet pleasure in the fact that Tyrion says he “has more of the North in [him] than [his] brothers.”

Tyrion gives Jon the oft quoted advice on bastardy: “Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armor yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” Having just completed the Tyrion reread, I think Tyrion’s counsel here has less to do with actionable advice to Jon as it does self-directed mantra. Ironically, Jon has already made his status his strength: he unblinkingly appealed to his bastardy to save the life of the pups and self sacrifice last chapter, and he wielded it here as part of his arsenal of abilities with regard to character assessment and observation. Still, the fact that he is a bastard, and specifically, doesn’t know who his mother is, takes a clear toll on Jon’s self-image. It seems that Jon knows how to use his status to his advantage, but hasn’t emotionally reconciled not knowing his identity beyond the fact that his mother was “some woman.”

[Florina Laufeyson]

*stops kermit flailing enough to post*

Oh hai thread! Wooooow this is awesome, bumps!

I wanna totes talk about something right up in here.

Even at seven, Bran understood what his brother had done. The count had come right only because Jon had omitted himself. He had included the girls, included even Rickon, the baby, but not the bastard who bore the surname Snow, the name that custom decreed be given to all those in the north unlucky enough to be born with no name of their own.

This right here. You talk about the sacrifice Jon makes so the legitimate Stark kids get a pup and he doesnt. I think this strongly illustrates the very core of his character and how he would never ever stand in the way of his siblings' claim. His talk with Stannis about legitimizing him illustrates this later in the series. The opportunity to get what he wants most but he still wouldnt stand in the way of his siblings.

I suspect that Jon may have been the first Stark to warg with his familiar from this.

Interesting theory. I assumed on rereads that this had a lot to do with Jon possibly being born before Robb. If not that, then possible because due to his being a bastard, he's learned to observe much more and as such, "has his eyes opened." Like you say as the "Watcher."

One thing to note is that Ghost is found away from the other pups. I feel this has to do with Jon being born far away from the other Starks but not so far as to be not one of them. Still close enough. ;) If we assume R+L=J that is.

Oh this is gonna be so much fun!

[Lord Flashheart]

Thank you, I have been waiting for one of these.

[Mark Antony]

Awesome, I read Jon 1 earlier today.

Jaime/ Tyrion: “He was more interested in the queen’s brothers…The Lion and the Imp…[Jaime] is what a king should look like…Jon watched [Tyrion] with f

I completely forgot about that, Everyone always brings up the line about Tyrions shadow being as tall as a King i didn't realize he compares Jaime to a King in the same chapter.

Thanks for these re-reads, Best part of the forum imo. WIll be following along

[Mark Antony]

After them came the children, Little Rickon first, managing the long-walk with all the dignity a three year old could muster. Jon had to urge him on when he stopped to visit

Maybe something like this would happen if Jon were to meet Rickon again, Him urging Rickon on to the top.

I really liked Benjen when we first met him

[Florina Laufeyson]

“The Night’s Watch is a sworn brotherhood. We have no families. None of us will ever father sons. Our wife is duty. Our mistress is honor…You are a boy of 14. Not until you have known a woman, you cannot understand what you would be giving up.” Benjen thoroughly insists that vows should only be spoken when the true price known: “If you knew what the oath would cost you, you might be less eager to pay the price, son.”

One thing to note is how Benjen really doesnt speak much about the current state of the Watch.

But Jon's answer of "I am not your son!" and Benjen's reply of "More's the pity" always seemed to strike a chord with me. Especially as Benjen speaks about what the Black Brothers have to give up. Always made me wonder if Benjen ever considered raising Jon himself as his own bastard. (and Ned disagreed vehemently)

Its also interesting because Jon seems so sure here, yet he struggles with his vows so much later.

Cersei: Jon recognizes her beauty, but “the queen never so much as looked at him. Even at 14, Jon could see through her smile.”

Hmm. Jon's playing the Watcher here. He sees through Cersei's smile and a little bit later goes on about how Robert asked Ned to take him to the crypts earlier. He tells Benjen:

The queen is angry too,” Jon told his uncle in a low, quiet voice. “Father took the king down to the crypts this afternoon. The queen didn’t want him to go.”

Benjen gave Jon a careful, measuring look. “You don’t miss much, do you, Jon? We could use a man like you on the Wall.”

Benjen remarks about how Jon doesnt miss much and then segways right into the NW talk.

I found that interesting. ;)

Having just completed the Tyrion reread, I think Tyrion’s counsel here has less to do with actionable advice to Jon as it does self-directed mantra. Ironically, Jon has already made his status his strength: he unblinkingly appealed to his bastardy to save the life of the pups and self sacrifice last chapter, and he wielded it here as part of his arsenal of abilities with regard to character assessment and observation.

I agree. Tyrion here seems more like parroting his own idea into Jon. Jon doesnt exactly take the advice because he already knows how to deal with it like you said. Even if he angsts about it.

I always assumed Jon's angst was directed more at the fact that he didnt know who his mum was. We learn later that Ned just wont talk about it. AT ALL. So it seems to be a very touchy subject for both Ned and Jon.

As for the Night's Watch, Jon feels he can make something out of himself there. Even a bastard can rise through the ranks.

*This thread is now my blankie fort*

[lady m]

About Theon, Jon describes him as 'young Theon Greyjoy,' which seems a curious way to describe someone five years older than you are. But I think it emphasizes two things about the characters, the mentioned growing up fast of a bastard in the case of Jon, contrasted with Theon who might should have grown up more quickly having become a ward and living far from home, but who has gone the opposite direction. Theon might be older, but Jon is older in spirit and maturity, old soul as it were.

Finally, one curious thing is the placement of Jon I. We shift to Jon's POV for the first time directly from the Winterfell crypts which come up over-and-over in Jon's arc.

[Dr. Pepper]

Yay! Been looking forward to this project for months. So excited!

On a very goofy note, I pulled up these two chapters and read them side by side earlier today and glanced across a couple of paragraphs and had a chuckle. It's very jarring to see serious Jon with Bran at the beheading and direwolf retrieval and then look to the side and see Jon as a bad, teary-eyed drunk. That sort of whiplash feel becomes so apparent in rereads and I love it!

Now to the serious stuff. One thing I noticed is how Jon's chapter is bookended. It follows immediately after Ned's visit in the crypts and the "promise me, her place is here" dialogue to BAM Jon opening with ruminations on bastardy. His chapter then ends with dialogue about his mother.

The Watcher Theme

I enjoy the comparisons between Arya's 'seeing' and Jon's 'watching'. They are similar, but different. The 'watching' is more methodical and controlled, in a way, where as the 'seeing' presents as more reactionary.

The watching starts early, with Theon. Jon watches Theon act a jerk at the beheading, but does not react to it. He instead calmly teaches Bran the proper behavior for such an event. "Don't look away," he tells Bran. It continues with Theon when the direwolves are found. Though it's Bran's POV and we can't know what's going on in Jon's head, I speculate that Jon was watching the scene, noting how Theon was acting and how his brothers were reacting and figured out a way to add a measure of control to the situation to save the wolves, even if it meant sacrificing himself. It's discovered that the wolf Jon eventually got opened his eyes first.

This leads into Jon watching the royal procession and noting the behaviors and personalities of the royal family. Some of his notations I find intriguing in hindsight. Robert was a disappointment while Jaime looked as a king should. These types of observations don't become apparent until later, much later for Jaime. But this scene connects with Ghost being the first to open his eyes.

Jon starts the chapter noting how the seating arrangements allow him to interact with the reception in a way he hadn't before. The atmosphere is different, it's livelier and there aren't as many rules. He revels in it, for a while. He drinks and listens to bawdy stories and even feeds his wolf under the table. A noteworthy thing is that he doesn't mention the names of those at his table. All of the names in the chapter are of those up on the dais. He's having a grand old time until Benjen comes down and comments on the seating arrangements, reminding him of his bastardy. Their conversation centers for a moment on the dais, a place Jon isn't allowed at that moment because of his name. It's a very 'outsiders' scene.

Something that may be of interest to look back upon with chapters/books that haven't been written or published yet: Rickon turns to Jon while walking up to the dais, and it's Jon that points his way back.

[Manderlay]

Their father understood as well. “You want no pup for yourself, Jon?” he asked softly.

“The direwolf graces the banners of House Stark,” Jon pointed out. “I am no Stark, Father.”

Jon saved the pups because he loved his siblings (Bran wanted the pups & partly because he didn't want Theon to kill the pups) and he has more of Eddard Stark in him than any of his true born children, he excluded himself and asked Lord Eddard to give the pups to his children as he wanted to honor the Old Gods, Jon has more of the North in him as we find in the later chapters, and I suspect he believe the pups were sent by the Old Gods, he believes in the old gods, Robb at this point in the story is not as mature as Jon and Jon has learned his lessons fast because he is a bastard, he also has a thirst to prove himself and show everyone that him despite being a bastard can do his duty with honour. That's why he excluded himself, hes also more tuned to reality than his siblings, well the rest in the first book are still young, but compared to Robb and Ned's Ward Theon.

I find that the tone of Jon’s character stands in strong contrast to the image we saw through Bran’s eyes in the previous chapter. Where Jon had appeared solemn, sober, observant and dignified, here Jon is literally drunk, impulsive, emotional and rather undignified. The difference in the setting undoubtedly accounts for part of this tone change; a ribald feast versus a solemn lesson in justice. Also of import is the difference in POV; where Jon is Bran’s big brother and thus cast with mature reverence, Jon’s POV really puts into perspective just how young and still immature the boy truly is.

I disagree with this analysis, The only reason Jon acted the way he did was because he was drunk and not immature, and he hasn't made his status as a bastard his strength yet, he still has a lot to learn but Jon is mature enough to listen to other peoples advice as we know from later chapters. Jon's home is Winterfell, he has good memories with his siblings and his father but he will always be a Snow and that is his primary motivation to leave and the best choice he has in front of him as neither his Father or his Siblings or any of the Knights in his Father's service offer him a better choice, that proves that he is not immature as he took the best choice he had at the time. Benjen asks Jon to wait and reconsider but neither does he give Jon an alternative, I know it can be said that Jon would have been offered a place is some Lords Garrison and made a knight but that would be his fathers doing and Jon is not likely to take that kind of favours, he is a man grown rather than a boy, a green boy sure in terms of other stuff but he has a lot of sense, So I Disagree that he is not mature and still a boy.

Jon is the first warg among his siblings - Yeah I agree with that one, Ghost never makes a sound, so how did Jon hear him, he is the first warg and in my opinion the strongest and the most wisest of them all

BTW Great Post butterbumps! :thumbsup:

[Mladen]

Butterbumps! , I have waited for this thread for so long, and I am so glad my wishes came true. I`ll support you, Lummel and Ragnorak in everything, help you anyway I can and I hope I`ll be useful to this thread.

Now, let we focus on why we are here :)

“Don’t look away”

One of the lines that I think will end up having a lot of significance later is Jon’s advice to face the execution: “Don’t look away. Father will know if you do.” Watching, seeing, looking and observing are constant motifs in Jon’s arc that play out multiply; further, the issue of desertion and execution hangs over Jon’s character ominously.

What a wonderful parallel between brothers. And what a great forshadowing for both of them. Don`t look away. This advise given very early, at the very beginning of ASOIAF is something both Jon and Bran should remember as long as they live. Given their current positions, observing, looking, seeing is what they should always do.

Robb focuses on the deserter’s courage, proclaiming that the man died bravely, while Jon notes the man’s fear. The boys gallop off, Robb shouting and laughing, Jon “sullen and intent.”

Some of Ned’s advice ought to be extracted for discussion, as it frames not only our perception of “honorable,” but also sets up thematic motifs that reappear over Jon’s arc:

Bran thought about it. “Can a man still be brave if he’s afraid?”

“That is the only time a man can be brave,” his father told him.

Trueborn son and baseborn son. They perhaps have the same Stark blood, but they are very different. While Robb is from beginning man who see courage and has brighter view on the world, unlike Jon who saw the fear and uglier side of dying. This scene from the very beginning made clear difference between brothers, for no matter how good Robb was, he never had eyes Jon had. He never saw people like Jon did. And his inability to see something other than noble feelings in men costed him a lot.

Also, this scene can be wonderfully connected with two Stark girls, and their adventures. While Arya was learnt that fear is powerful enemy and you should surpress it, Sansa had learnt that fear is a powerful tool in surviving. But, just like Sansa has overcome her fear several times, and showed exceptional bravery, proving that man is the most corageous when he is most frightened, Jon will soon learn there is no bravery without fear.

The blood of the First Men still flows in the veins of the Starks, and we hold to the belief that the man who passes the sentence should swing the sword. If you would take a man’s life, you owe it to him to look into his eyes and hear his final words. And if you cannot bear to do that, then perhaps the man does not deserve to die… When that day comes, you must take no pleasure in the task, but neither must you look away. A ruler who hides behind paid executioners soon forgets what death is.

You will pardon me but I will for a second go far beyond this chapter, and all the way to the badass-est line `Edd, fetch me a block`. This very idea of Stark way, the way of First men is so determinable to all Stark children. To both Jon and Robb. To look into eyes, to hear someone`s last word, is to be both strong and cold. And Jon was able to see the men`s eye and to watch him getting killed. From this scene to all others we shall discuss in the future, is a clear line of who Jon is and what his principles are.

“The direwolf graces the banners of House Stark,” Jon pointed out. “I am no Stark, Father.”

And here we start. The theory that lasts for so long has its first clue in Jon`s words. Although poor boy reffered to something else, you can`t not notice how his clear differentiation between Starks and him is made. Also, just a chapter ahead, he`s given a great advise from Tyrion, but Tyrion only told him what he already knew. For he showed here how much he understood his status and position. How he isn`t the same like his siblings. How he is outcast, a lone abandoned wolf. Jon knew all of that and have accepted it before Southern lord told him.

Butterbumps. congratulations on this thread. I can only offer praises for this idea and my humble contribution to whats going to be one of the biggest thread on forums. I will continue my analysis of Jon I after I do my homework - read a chapter and do a bit of research. See ya soon :)

[Dr. Pepper]

I disagree with this analysis, The only reason Jon acted the way he did was because he was drunk and not immature, and he hasn't made his status as a bastard his strength yet, he still has a lot to learn but Jon is mature enough to listen to other peoples advice as we know from later chapters.

I think the alcohol played a large part, but I also think his reaction to the alcohol revealed that Jon is not yet a man. He has a long way to go before he reaches the level of maturity we see in later chapters.

The entire feast scene reminded me of a modern teenager's first weekend away from home without adult supervision. The teenager feels very adult away from the watchful eyes of their parents. They may overindulge here, make a poor decision there, or overacts out of context. They do not yet know their limits and are just learning to put into practice the lessons they have learned all of their lives. Their immaturity is revealed as things begin to feel a bit out of control and they start yearning for the comfort of their parents.

I think Jon seated away from the family was a first. But he's in a new situation and not entirely aware of the environment immediately around him. Everything is awesome and fun at first. The loss of control of his reactions in the scene starts to creep up due to alcohol and then he sort of falls apart and yearns for his 'home'. If I recall correctly, Dany experiences a similar set of events in her first chapter, though it's a lot more serious than just attending a feast away from the family for the first time.

[Melonica Stormborn]

I love this thread already! I'd start on Bran I and Jon I after work and then report back with comments. @butterbumps' breakdown is great!

[butterbumps!]

oh, thanks everyone for the encouraging words! There's a lot of really good observation already, so this bodes quite well. I'll try to go through all the comments, but it's generated so much response so quickly, apologies in advance if I miss something.

I really like the various applications of quotes to notable later events many of you made. Having done a similar reread for Dany and Tyrion, I noticed that these early chapters were loaded with hints of later arc developments; without getting carried away with comparison, a lot of core, persistent traits that overtly manifested later in these characters' arcs were already embedded in these early passages. I'm curious to see how this plays out with Jon as it pertains to "self sacrifice," "contesting sibling claims," and "watching/ oath/ desertion."

DP: Good catch on the adjacency of the Lyanna's crypt and Jon's first chapter, as well as the Jon-Arya "watching" v "seeing" parallel. Watching implies keeping alert, awake, holding vigil, to be on one's guard. It's as much about the actor as it is about the observed subject. Seeing has some subtle differences; the seer is less "active," and it's all about perceiving the subject objectively. The subject is more "important" than the person perceiving.

Manderlay: I don't think Jon is immature precisely, but the two chapters do juxtapose very different images of Jon. I think that Jon does come across as far less solemn, controlled and mature in this chapter than in Bran's, given the drunken state and the way he comports himself. I don't mean that as a criticism against him, merely that I think these less mature aspects are extremely important starting points as part of his overall journey. He does a lot of growing up in these upcoming chapters, and he gets to that point by learning to overcome or tame these more puerile impulses.

Another important aspect to consider is how reasonable Jon's direct internal monologue comes across to us as readers, versus how he actually communicates his thoughts. For instance, we know that Jon has actually thought long and hard about taking the Black, but he fails to communicate this properly to Benjen, who subsequently resists Jon's request. Understandably, Jon fails to communicate due to a combination of wine and introversion, but I think it's important to note that he sometimes has a disconnect between his thoughts and verbal communication in-world.

Mark Antony: Awesome pickup on Jon's urging Rickon along to his appropriate place. I think there could be (very future) foreshadowing potential there.

[Winterfellian]

Great post Bumps! As you probably know I've been eagerly awaiting this thread. Am sure this is going to be as awesome as the others you have been a part of! Now for Jon...

The sweet, fruity taste of summerwine filled his mouth and brought a smile to his lips.

Jon is drunk with summerwine. I find it interesting because it is the first thing that reminds the readers that Jon's still a very young boy, despite being "an old hand at justice" as we saw from Bran's previous chapter. Summer is a season that in ASOIAF is strongly associated with youth, innocence and/or even ignorance of the world. We have Sansa's "long summer of her childhood" and Catelyn's "knights of summer". So despite the fact Jon as a bastard might have grown faster than her siblings, Martin seems to be reminding us that he's still drunk with summer and very much a summer child at this point. However as a contrast we see that "Jon has a man's thirst". And he has; he is thirsty for recognition and for a chance to prove himself.

In this spirit I will also like to comment on Jon's watching abilities when it comes to the royal party. I think that the scene is a mixture of accuracies and inaccuracies and when analyzed shows us how that Jon's aptitude for reading others is not as accurate as it appears from Bran's younger brother perspective. Bumps mentions Myrcella, but I will like to add the one referring to Jaime Lannister:

Ser Jaime Lannister was twin to Queen Cersei; tall and golden, with flashing green eyes and a smile that cut like a knife. He wore crimson silk, high black boots, a black satin cloak. On the breast of his tunic, the lion of his House was embroidered in gold thread, roaring its defiance. They called him the Lion of Lannister to his face and whispered “Kingslayer” behind his back.

Jon found it hard to look away from him. This is what a king should look like, he thought to himself as the man passed.

Whether is the product of his drunken state I find it very interesting that Jon thinks to himself that Jaime is exactly as a king should look like right after acknowledging that people refer to him as kingslayer behind his back. Even though Jon is aware that Jaime's infamous reputation he fails to see past Jaime's power trappings and not only does he sees him only as "the Lion of Lannister" but Jaime becomes the measure he thinks a king should be! He actually reminds me of Sansa at this point. Jon's ideas of what a king should look like are not a far cry from Sansa's ideas of what knights ought to look like. Both their ideas are as clouded as Winterfell's long hall. And how very different from the Jon that will later accurately identify power trappings from what they are!

[Young Nan]

What an outstanding analysis. I agree with your observation that Jon appears to be the very soul of maturity and dignity in his younger brothers eyes, to an angsty teenager that had too much to drink. I don't think his own chapter showed he was immature, per se, as he actually had thought a great deal about joining the nights watch even though he presented the idea impulsively.

Re: Jon discussing the "perks" of bastardy. I didn't interpret these parts as Jon actually enjoying getting drunk with the serving folk and not having to sit with the boring royal family. I thought he was being sort of bitterly sarcastic, for lack of a better description. I think the reason he was getting so drunk in the first place, is because he felt excluded and upset. so he got plastered, all the while saying "see, I don't need these people, look how much FUN I'm having". as if he was trying to convince himself that not only did he not care, he enjoyed it.

[JonnSnow]

You guys are awesome.

[Isildur's Mane]

This is exciting! Great write up Butterbumps!

I'll respond to this properly later, once I have re read the chapters :)

[Targaryen_Rubies]

Jon's comment "Don't look away" makes for an interesting parallel to Dany's "If I look back I'm lost" where one requires Bran to watch, observe, learn and take responsibility while "If I look back I'm lost" requires Dany to keep moving forward in spite of everything. Also does anybody find it odd that when Jon thinks that Jaime looks like a king that Jaime is wearing Rhaegar's colors?