The Jon Snow ReRead Project!

[Fire and Lemoncakes]

Very nice thread opening.

In Bran I Jon is depicted as teacher for Bran, as the person who stands for the other Stark kids and the one who challenges the authorative figure Ned. Jon is presented as the alpha kid while Robb is in a passive role. The actual power dynamic between Robb and Jon is inverse to the expected one based on social status.

In Jon I the status as a bastard is painted extremely negative. Is his prospect of life really that cruel? Bastards have become Hand of the King, Kingsguard or have been raised to lords. He actually has similar chances in life as Bran and Rickon and arguably is far better off than Sansa and Arya who are to be married off so their sons can make something out of their lives. He may judge others well but when it comes to himself, his view is very tainted.

On a more speculative note, Jon's arc features a lot of extremes. Ned is loving and close while Cat is cold and distant. His NW cloak is black while Ghost is white. Robb has a better lot in life therefore bastardy is the utmost terrible fate. Yet sometimes he encounters things that don't fit that pattern like Tyrion who is "fascinating" instead of being clear-cut judged positively or negatively.

[Melonica Stormborn]

@Winterfellian the analysis on Theon and Jon is great and ties very well with their separate arcs e.g. the Arya and Jon dynamic vs the Reek and "Arya" dynamic, and the weirwood sacrifice theories floating around (not that I specifically subscribe to those).

[Stag Country]

Opened eyes

In the next chapter, Jon states that “bastards grow up faster than other children.” Only Jon’s wolf has opened its eyes, reflecting both the notion of “growing up faster,” as well as reinforcing a theme of Jon as “Watcher” from the outset: attentive, mature, related yet different, awake. It’s also notable that Jon alone heard the noise that brought him back to the white wolf. We soon learn that Ghost is completely mute, yet he was able to catch Jon’s attention here. I suspect that Jon may have been the first Stark to warg with his familiar from this.

Hopefully this commentary isn't swerving off topic and into crackpot land, but did anyone else get the feeling that no one else saw Ghost because he wasn't actually there?

Jon "hears" him when we know Ghost isn't prone to ever making noises, either due to actually being mute or some sort of innate demeanor. Not only that but he hears him after they had started to ride away on their horses. I don't think the text is specific as to how far they got, but I just recall reading that and thinking it was odd that only he would notice. Perhaps it was an 'early warging', but I thought there was something more to it.

I guess where I am going with this is that I don't believe Ghost is actually just a direwolf, but perhaps some sort of creation or manifestation of the Old Gods themselves that just took the shape of one. Might be a little crackpot but it would explain the white coloring and red eyes (shared with weirwood heart trees), and if you believe the later prophecies that abound in the novels, it may suggest something about Jon's future as well.

[Tagganaro]

Awesome. Thanks for the great reread as always Butterbumps, Ragnorak, and Lummel. It should be a good ride.

Where to begin...I love Butterbumps picking up and pointing out the constant comparisons/differentiations GRRM seems to be doing with Jon in early Bran and Jon chapters. Jon is constantly comparing himself to and being compared to Robb, which is a great rumination on Jon's own uncomfortableness with his bastard status. Jon proudly tells Benjen he's a better sword than Robb, and Tyrion will later butter Jon up completely by telling him he has more of the North in him than his brothers. Jon craves this kind of affirmation/validation. But on the other hand, Jon shows a bit of resignation to his bastard status as well. He instantly gives up any claim to the dire wolves on account of his bastard status, and even at the beginning of his first chapter he thinks to himself on being happy for his status, where he can sit with more interesting people and get drunk on account of it. Interesting juxtaposition.

Also, Tyrion's line about shielding himself in his bastard status really struck a chord with me, as it seems to be advice Jon takes quite literally in ASOS when he meets up with Mance Rayder and uses it as a shield to protect his lie and save his life.

Girl Problems- This is perhaps identical to his problems with his bastard identity, as they are closely related, but I found it interesting how erroneous (and harsh) Jon's dismissal of Myrcella as insipid was. This again relates to Jon comparing himself to Robb, here seemingly jealous of the attention Robb is getting from Myrcella and taking it out on her. This type of behavior is later confirmed in ADWD with Alys Karstark mentioning Jon being somewhat grumpy towards her when they first met. Additionally, Jon finally breaks down and begins to really start crying when Benjen mentions fathering some bastards. Jon is extremely uncomfortable with his identity, which leads to him being uncomfortable around women as well it would seem.

Theon's An Ass Part 1: Yeah, not much else to add but Theon really is an ass. I love how it's essentially the first line Jon has. And I love how Bran just relays this line with no comment on it either, like it's just a casual fact. But yeah Theon, kicking that guys head is total ass-like behavior. What an ass!

Mance...Where art Thou? Anybody else having trouble focusing on Jon's chapter and just wondering where the heck Mance is and what he's doing? I would not be surprised if no less than 10 bastards were sired by Mance during this feast, and would really like to know his itinerary for the feast.

Anyway, great review Butterbumps and thanks for this wonderful thread.

[bbstark]

Terribly excited about this thread :D Butterbumps, Lummel, Ragnorak, I respect, nay love, your work and look forward to tearing the text to pieces with everyone!

Be back when have done the work and am able to contribute

Ciao!

[Where is Rickon]

Mance...Where art Thou? Anybody else having trouble focusing on Jon's chapter and just wondering where the heck Mance is and what he's doing? I would not be surprised if no less than 10 bastards were sired by Mance during this feast, and would really like to know his itinerary for the feast.

There was a bard singing at the feast....

[Ragnorak]

One thing to note is how Benjen really doesnt speak much about the current state of the Watch.

But Jon's answer of "I am not your son!" and Benjen's reply of "More's the pity" always seemed to strike a chord with me. Especially as Benjen speaks about what the Black Brothers have to give up. Always made me wonder if Benjen ever considered raising Jon himself as his own bastard. (and Ned disagreed vehemently)

<snip>

I don't want to derail things if this turns out to be a highly debatable topic but every time I see that "more's the pity" line I ponder if Benjen knows who Jon's mother is. My rather strong suspicion is "yes" but I don't think we're given enough evidence in the text to say for certain either way.

<snip>

Girl Problems- This is perhaps identical to his problems with his bastard identity, as they are closely related, but I found it interesting how erroneous (and harsh) Jon's dismissal of Myrcella as insipid was. This again relates to Jon comparing himself to Robb, here seemingly jealous of the attention Robb is getting from Myrcella and taking it out on her. This type of behavior is later confirmed in ADWD with Alys Karstark mentioning Jon being somewhat grumpy towards her when they first met. Additionally, Jon finally breaks down and begins to really start crying when Benjen mentions fathering some bastards. Jon is extremely uncomfortable with his identity, which leads to him being uncomfortable around women as well it would seem.

Theon's An Ass Part 1: Yeah, not much else to add but Theon really is an ass. I love how it's essentially the first line Jon has. And I love how Bran just relays this line with no comment on it either, like it's just a casual fact. But yeah Theon, kicking that guys head is total ass-like behavior. What an ass!

Mance...Where art Thou? Anybody else having trouble focusing on Jon's chapter and just wondering where the heck Mance is and what he's doing? I would not be surprised if no less than 10 bastards were sired by Mance during this feast, and would really like to know his itinerary for the feast.

Anyway, great review Butterbumps and thanks for this wonderful thread.

I very much agree with your assessment of Jon on Myrcella. I actually think Sansa's view of Jon as jealous is an accurate one-- though not specifically with Joffrey. I suspect Joffrey succeeded in being a despised ass without anyone ever needing their own internal issues to hate him. Jon himself later admits to Mormont and reflects on his own issues with jealousy.

I don't think we're given a single hint or nod to Mance here. The bard seems to be closer to the high table so I don't think that's him. The one Mance connection I see is that Mance is watching this scene in very much the same way and even from a very similar position as Jon.

Opened eyes

As the party leaves the scene of the pups, something singularly catches Jon’s attention and he swings back. From the woods he returns with an albino pup that had either wandered or been driven away from the pup’s siblings. Jon vehemently claims this as his own, despite Theon’s insistence that an albino would die “faster than the others.”

In the next chapter, Jon states that “bastards grow up faster than other children.” Only Jon’s wolf has opened its eyes, reflecting both the notion of “growing up faster,” as well as reinforcing a theme of Jon as “Watcher” from the outset: attentive, mature, related yet different, awake. It’s also notable that Jon alone heard the noise that brought him back to the white wolf. We soon learn that Ghost is completely mute, yet he was able to catch Jon’s attention here. I suspect that Jon may have been the first Stark to warg with his familiar from this.

Small point but I think Bran's pup squirming as if he heard Theon is an indication that they were warging their wolves from the start. The distinction with Ghost is that Ghost reached out to Jon. Bran's pup felt Bran but there is no indication Bran felt anything in reverse. In Jon's he was the first to feel something from his wolf.

This is Jon and I don't want to drift too far off but it seems to me that asking "When did the others open their eyes?" would be an interesting question to explore (but probably not here without a Jon connection.) Arya has her lessons in seeing, Bran's quest is to open his third eye and learn to see through the trees, and Sansa is less obvious but it is worth pointing out that she is the one to actually see Ned die. Seeing is a huge theme in this series and if we miss that Martin throws in a character with a thousand eyes and one to help us along. He even takes other themes like power and calls it an illusion to tie it back to seeing. Mummery is another theme tied to seeing. By the end of his first POV we've had two other characters specifically tell us about Jon's gift of seeing aside from his own reflections.

[Isildur's Mane]

So I have now read and re-read the chapters.

I also tried to find Mance, and I don't think he is up near the high table singing. How big is this hall though? Could he be in another section?

I never noticed Jon's jealousy first time through, but yes, I agree that he is a bit (maybe more than a bit?) jealous of Robb. I think, if I remember correctly, that Jon and Robb had a bit of a competitive relationship but in the end Robb was always going to 'win'. But I can't remember if i read this or if I'm just speculating LOL.

Also @Ragnorak and others about 'seeing'; Rickon has greendreams like Jojen.... I'm not sure about Robb though.

ETA: also - if we are doing numbers like on the Tyrion one: 6 direwolf and one dead (mother) -- Not sure if it has been mentioned yet.

[Mladen]

I very much agree with your assessment of Jon on Myrcella. I actually think Sansa's view of Jon as jealous is an accurate one-- though not specifically with Joffrey. I suspect Joffrey succeeded in being a despised ass without anyone ever needing their own internal issues to hate him. Jon himself later admits to Mormont and reflects on his own issues with jealousy.

Just to mention, it will come later. Remember when Jon dreams of Robb and saying him `I am Lord of Winterfell` and kill him with Longclaw. Jon had sense of grandure, he is ambitious and capable, but his status as bastard is what pulls him back. And this entire paragraph in which he describes the royal party is just a coping mechanism. It`s easier to discard them as boring, and make your company desirable. That way the jealousy won`t overwhelm him. It`s childish way to cope, but Jon is that - adolescent boy.

[Young Nan]

Just to mention, it will come later. Remember when Jon dreams of Robb and saying him `I am Lord of Winterfell` and kill him with Longclaw. Jon had sense of grandure, he is ambitious and capable, but his status as bastard is what pulls him back. And this entire paragraph in which he describes the royal party is just a coping mechanism. It`s easier to discard them as boring, and make your company desirable. That way the jealousy won`t overwhelm him. It`s childish way to cope, but Jon is that - adolescent boy.

That's what I was getting at earlier, I didn't think he was enjoying himself in that chapter, I think he wanted to be up there with the royal family, but he couldn't so he was getting drunk, drowning his pain while dismissing them all as boring, insipid, etc. "screw u guys, I didn't wanna hang out with you anyways" kind of attitude. He's more than a little jealous and bitter about his bastardy.

That's also why I think he broke down and cried in front of everyone after Benjen made the comment about fathering bastards. His pain about being a bastard was already close to the surface.

[redviper9]

Excellent! Many thanks to the organizers of this thread...this should be a good one.

Something that has already come up a bit in this thread is Jon's assessment of Jaime, namely that Jaime looks like a king (or at least Jon's idea of what a king should look like). There might actually be some foreshadowing in what Jaime is wearing that night:

He wore crimson silk, high black boots, a black satin cloak.

Here we have the "kingly" Jaime Lannister wearing a black cloak like the brothers of the Night's Watch. This is of course looking ahead and bringing some of the theories associated with Jon, but I thought it was worth mentioning.

Looking forward to the rest of the thread!

[UVA]

I've been waiting for this as well so many thanks Butterbumps, et. al. Also, excuse me if I conflate George Wickham with Jaime or another morally specious character as I'm doing a re-read of Pride and Prejudice (of all things) at another place simultaneously.

Jon craves this kind of affirmation/validation. But on the other hand, Jon shows a bit of resignation to his bastard status as well.

I agree there is resignation but I would add that -- after this re-read -- Jon appropriates his bastardy as a means to authenticity. I mean, I think, in his mind's eye, he sees himself somewhat superior because he 'gets it' more than most others. He sees through the fake pleasantries, the hurtful yet polite slights, the slings and arrows of everyday discourse, which culminate in the feast scene. This gifted ability is substantiated not only by Jon but by Benjen, and Arya in a later chapter.

Jon needs others to validate him to some extent, but even here, through the teenage sniffling, he demonstrates a strong core of self-reliance.

[Melonica Stormborn]

in Jon I, Jon was quite full of himself despite being a bastard, not surprisingly because 1) he's drunk; 2) this is his pre-Donal Noye days of arrogance. Not only is there jealousy with Robb, he's very sure of his abilities and wants recognition. This is the result of Jon having a similar upbringing as his trueborn siblings - he is resigned to his bastardy and loves his siblings, but he also desires things that are supposedly beyond his reach because he knows that he is capable if not for his birth. It's not a bad way to feel, per se, but far less humble than post-Donal Noye Jon.

Going back to the Theon comparison, I think there's a bitterness there that isn't as pronounced at first read. Both are close to Robb (best dudes forever!) and are in a similar position at Winterfell, but these did not become a bonding point for them, Jon's view of Theon is very negative on the get go. Well, Theon is really smug but there's also the fact that although Theon is as much an outsider, he is a legitimate lordling. If Jon thinks he's an "ass", then it must have stung that he is more capable than Theon in his mind. It must have stung too that Theon can join the high lords in the feast and he can't, even though Cat doesn't love either of them.

[Harlaw's Book]

Thanks for the thread!

Winterfellian and Melonica, I really like your observations about the Jon and Theon's relationship. Winterfellian, your mention of Theon being set up as an antagonist for Jon reminded me of my speculation that the Ghost vs the dog for the chicken could foreshadow a confrontation between Jon and Theon because the Greyjoy colors are also black and yellow and how Theon is treated during ADWD.

The first time I read AGOT, I didn't understand why Jon wanted to join the Night's Watch at this point in the book --especially since Gared was like the fourth deserter Ned beheaded in a short amount of time. I let it slide as Jon didn't fully realize the consequences and arrogance that he would never end up like Gared. However, upon reread I think the decision to join the Night's Watch was more reasoned than I initially credited Jon.

[bbstark]

Opened eyes

As the party leaves the scene of the pups, something singularly catches Jon’s attention and he swings back. From the woods he returns with an albino pup that had either wandered or been driven away from the pup’s siblings. Jon vehemently claims this as his own, despite Theon’s insistence that an albino would die “faster than the others.”

In the next chapter, Jon states that “bastards grow up faster than other children.” Only Jon’s wolf has opened its eyes, reflecting both the notion of “growing up faster,” as well as reinforcing a theme of Jon as “Watcher” from the outset: attentive, mature, related yet different, awake. It’s also notable that Jon alone heard the noise that brought him back to the white wolf. We soon learn that Ghost is completely mute, yet he was able to catch Jon’s attention here. I suspect that Jon may have been the first Stark to warg with his familiar from this.

I always thought that Ghost being the first pup to open his eyes meant that Jon was the first to learn how to warg. I think I found some evidence for it, however it's in Tyrion II.

(I know it's against thread rules, being a future chapter and all, so I'm wondering if it's ok to post it now?)

[butterbumps!]

I guess where I am going with this is that I don't believe Ghost is actually just a direwolf, but perhaps some sort of creation or manifestation of the Old Gods themselves that just took the shape of one. Might be a little crackpot but it would explain the white coloring and red eyes (shared with weirwood heart trees), and if you believe the later prophecies that abound in the novels, it may suggest something about Jon's future as well.

It's an interesting idea, but I'm inclined to think that the differences between Ghost and the others might pertain more to clues about Jon's character versus his "siblings" than the meta-physical explanation you're suggesting. I don't think there are gods as such in ASOIAF, given Martin comments that we'll never see a god, as well as the fact that we see the "old gods" through Bran's POVs in the caves (they are CotF greenseers).

I might be missing things in this brief list, but I think Ghost's coloring and appearance evokes connections to:

• Appearance shows he's like his siblings, but somehow different (R+L)
  
• color as a nod to Bloodraven who is also fire + ice
  
• color as a nod to the Knight of the Laughing Tree (his mother, Lyanna)
  
• born apart from the rest (Dorne versus Riverrun/ Winterfell)
  
• that he wanders/ is driven away first connects to R+L, as well as the fact he's the first of Ned's kids to leave the nest; could also point to his being the first born (before Robb, that is)
  
• "ghost" as a foreshadowing of his becoming of a specter of some sort
  
• opened eyes potentially related to first warging experience; also might relate to increased maturity
  

I think generally, the differences point toward his disputed parentage, as well as potentially situating him in a unique position for the bloodbath about to happen (the game and the song, I mean).

Mance...Where art Thou? Anybody else having trouble focusing on Jon's chapter and just wondering where the heck Mance is and what he's doing? I would not be surprised if no less than 10 bastards were sired by Mance during this feast, and would really like to know his itinerary for the feast.

lol, you always manage to make me laugh with your spirited "analyses." Anyway, Mance wasn't playing at this feast, but sitting in the back (from aSoS):

"All in all I made much better time than Robert, who was traveling with a ponderous great wheelhouse to keep his queen in comfort. A day south of Winterfell I came up on him and fell in with his company. Freeriders and hedge knights are always attaching themselves to royal processions, in hopes of finding service with the king, and my lute gained me easy acceptance.” He laughed. “I know every bawdy song that’s ever been made, north or south of the Wall. So there you are. The night your father feasted Robert, I sat in the back of his hall on a bench with the other freeriders, listening to Orland of Oldtown play the high harp and sing of dead kings beneath the sea. I betook of your lord father’s meat and mead, had a look at Kingslayer and Imp . . . and made passing note of Lord Eddard’s children and the wolf pups that ran at their heels."

There might actually be some foreshadowing in what Jaime is wearing that night:

Here we have the "kingly" Jaime Lannister wearing a black cloak like the brothers of the Night's Watch. This is of course looking ahead and bringing some of the theories associated with Jon, but I thought it was worth mentioning.

Good catch.

[Melonica Stormborn]

There are many more Theon and Jon parallels but they go beyond the first Jon chapter already, the stand outs being their identities as turncloaks at some point, and the one I mentioned previously about the Jon/Arya and Theon/Fake Arya relationship. This would be better discussed when we get to the related Jon chapters so I'll go no further. Lastly, I can see that Theon's commitment to what an Ironborn should be is kind of like Jon's commitment to his Nights Watch vows.

[Where is Rickon]

Anyway, Mance wasn't playing at this feast, but sitting in the back (from aSoS):

"All in all I made much better time than Robert, who was traveling with a ponderous great wheelhouse to keep his queen in comfort. A day south of Winterfell I came up on him and fell in with his company. Freeriders and hedge knights are always attaching themselves to royal processions, in hopes of finding service with the king, and my lute gained me easy acceptance.” He laughed. “I know every bawdy song that’s ever been made, north or south of the Wall. So there you are. The night your father feasted Robert, I sat in the back of his hall on a bench with the other freeriders, listening to Orland of Oldtown play the high harp and sing of dead kings beneath the sea. I betook of your lord father’s meat and mead, had a look at Kingslayer and Imp . . . and made passing note of Lord Eddard’s children and the wolf pups that ran at their heels."

Good catch.

Thanks for the quote. Wow! I wonder if he is fooled by the fake Arya.

[MysteryNinja]

First, great Re-read project! :thumbsup:

I just read AGOT Jon I again, and what stood out for me in this chapter, as a few other posters already commented on, is his struggling with his bastardy and uncertainty regarding his future and his place in society, which conflicts a lot with the image presented in the preceding Bran chapter, where we see him as a very composed character who seems to know what he's doing ("don't look away", the appeal to Ned, his self assured claim on Ghost)

He had thought on it long and hard, lying abed at night while his brothers slept around him. Robb would someday inherit Winterfell, would command great armies as the Warden of the North. Bran and Rickon would be Robb’s bannermen and rule holdfasts in his name. His sisters Arya and Sansa would marry the heirs of other great houses and go south as mistress of castles of their own. But what place could a bastard hope to earn?

"You're Ned Stark's bastard, aren't you?"

Jon felt a coldness pass right through him. He pressed his lips together and said nothing.

and this

The yard was quiet and empty. A lone sentry stood high on the battlements of the inner wall, his cloack pulled tight around him against the cold. He looked bored and miserable as he huddled there alone, but Jon would have traded places with him in an instant.

Though I admit this sentiment could easily be attributed to the embarrassing exit he just made out of the party.

And of course his near hysterical assurance to Benjen that he would never father bastards.

On a seperate note, I always wondered if Jon would have joined the Night's Watch if he had known its current dismal reputation...

[UVA]

in Jon I, Jon was quite full of himself despite being a bastard, not surprisingly because 1) he's drunk; 2) this is his pre-Donal Noye days of arrogance. Not only is there jealousy with Robb, he's very sure of his abilities and wants recognition. This is the result of Jon having a similar upbringing as his trueborn siblings - he is resigned to his bastardy and loves his siblings, but he also desires things that are supposedly beyond his reach because he knows that he is capable if not for his birth. It's not a bad way to feel, per se, but far less humble than post-Donal Noye Jon.

Yeah, I think there's Jon's immaturity here, but even beyond that there's a sense I have that he really does not see most people as his equals. This sense of superiority may be bound up in an attempt to cope with the limbo his bastard status often places him in. Take Robb, he acknowledges to Benjen that Robb is better with a lance but he's better with a sword, he's not giving that much credit to Robb here. It's interesting that in light of the recent comments about the Jaime/Rhaegar connection, Jon seems most impressed (awestruck?) with the king-like appearance of Jaime. Jon doesn't judge Jaime here.

Going back to the Theon comparison, I think there's a bitterness there that isn't as pronounced at first read. Both are close to Robb (best dudes forever!) and are in a similar position at Winterfell, but these did not become a bonding point for them, Jon's view of Theon is very negative on the get go. Well, Theon is really smug but there's also the fact that although Theon is as much an outsider, he is a legitimate lordling. If Jon thinks he's an "ass", then it must have stung that he is more capable than Theon in his mind. It must have stung too that Theon can join the high lords in the feast and he can't, even though Cat doesn't love either of them.

The Theon in Bran I and Jon I, who is essentially a well-heeled hostage of Winterfell, appears to be much more comfortable in the hierarchy than Jon at this point. Later we learn about that Theon had his own conflicted feelings of wanting to be a Stark, but Jon seems to bristle more from his status.