The Jon Snow ReRead Project!

[Harlaw's Book]

By the way, does anyone on this thread know if taking the black is an equivalent honour of knighthood or joining the Kingsguard for the northerners? I don't believe that the thought of obtaining knighthood and serving another castle has ever crossed Jon's mind, probably because he doesn't worship the Seven.

IIRC, Sansa mentions singers describing watchmen as knights in songs --think it's in the chapter where she watches Ned hold court from the Iron Throne.

I do think she was aware of this cirsumtances but she couldn't bring herself to modify her behavior towards him.

Winterfellian, your welcome. And I agree with you on your latest post. I just want to bring attention to this point because this issue of Cat's inability to modify her behavior (though for understandable reasons) is going to come up again and again during her arc in circumstances unrelated to Jon. IMO, it's something that prevents her from being as effective as she would like. During ACOK of kings there are a few times where she says should be less sharp or more sweet, but she can't. She even recognizes others should behave more sweetly, but she can't persuade them to do so. I think the best example of this is during her critique of the peace terms Robb sent the Lannisters.

[Arya Targaryen]

Awesome thread, I waited for long to read the analysis of Jon's chapters!

On Cat and Jon and their relationship:

I've always assumed that Cat in the beginning didn't hate Jon for himself, but the situation Ned put her in, which is quite understandable. But later on, as she started to love Ned and forgave him, and probably was ready to love (or at least accept) Jon as well, Jon grew old enough for her to realise he looks much more like Ned than her children. And later on she must have realised that Jon was an equal to Robb in any aspect (in a later chapter Jon remembers how Cat had looked at him any time he beated Robb in anything - and that happened quite often).

So I think Cat hated/disliked Jon because she considered him as a threat to her own children. Jon wouldn't have been a threat if he was fostered somewhere far away. Or if he stayed with his mother, even if Ned had supported him in any ways. He wouldn't have been such a threat if he was ugly, stupid or a coward. But Jon looked more like a Stark, Ned raised him as his trueborn sons, and was capable, sometimes better than Robb.

[butterbumps!]

Jon- Cat Stuff:

I think a few others have comments on this as well, but I thought I'd maybe just pull a couple of posts to answer as a whole, so apologies if I'm not covering everything.

I kind of feel like I should say that I know I have a pretty optimistic view of Cat in this circumstance, and I definitely don't want to seem like I'm pushing that "agenda" or forcing it here, since I know it's highly controversial. I kind of took my "soap box" over to the active Jon-Cat thread, so I'm "getting it out" there, lol.

Bumps! though I agree with most of your points I do believe that Jon's duress was at least palpable and that he made his feelings known in some way during the years as evidenced in this chapter:

The last line suggests that there was a time where Cat's cold demeanour towards him made Jon feel the need to run away from her or to cry and yet Cat's treatment continued. I do think she was aware of this cirsumtances but she couldn't bring herself to modify her behavior towards him. I think Jon grew more stoic in regards to the treatment he received from Cat (where once something made him cry now it just angers him) but this wasn't always the case.

When we think about it how well can a child of 4, 5 or 6 years old can conceal his/her feelings in the face of rejection? I think it will be illogical to assume that a very young Jon never cried in front of the adult who showed him coldness. He probably even shared some of this with his brother Robb (Robb is aware of Cat's friction with Jon) who might have even repeat it to Cat in a childish manner. Jon probably learned to mask his feelings with time but for a small child this would have been very hard. So I do believe that Cat was aware of Jon's duress if not if the whole extent of it. She just couldn't bring herself to look pass the many things that made Jon's presence in her home a delicate matter to her.

@Harlaw's book, Thanks!

I believe Cat harboured feelings of hatred and hurt when it came to Jon Snow's mother. "Whoever Jon's mother had been, Ned must have loved her fiercely". I agree that in case of Jon, Cat was a reality check and that helped him cope, however as Cat never let Jon forget he was a bastard, wouldn't these actions be considered malicious? or Intentional, as she was venting Jon's mothers's hatred onto him and also partly because Jon looked more like Ned than any of her true born children (ofcourse Arya is the only one who favours Ned), her disappointment that somehow Jon's mother bore Ned a son who looked more like him than her children was also a reason that she was cold towards Jon and never let him forget he is a bastard.

I made a somewhat more articulate case for how I understand the Robb reaction here, and the rest of this same post I think better explains why I came to that speculative conclusion that Cat might have behaved somewhat differently.

In summary of Robb's talk, I think Jon's words about how once that might have made him cry doesn't indicate that this sort of interaction with Cat was common, nor indication that he ever showed his duress to her directly. I actually think it's the opposite given Robb's reaction; though he asks with concern about whether Cat has anything to do with Jon's sullen mood, he immediately buys Jon's lie that she had been "very kind." If this sort of behavior was the norm, I don't think Robb would have believed Jon here so easily.

In general, I think it's a very fine line between making sure Jon "knew his place" (i.e. was not trueborn) versus being malicious or actually venting at Jon outside of "it should have been you." Drawing this line makes me conflicted for many reasons, but one important reason is that since Cat is not actually Jon's step-parent or in any way responsible for him, I feel that placing expectations on her beyond a basic peaceful co-existence to be unfair. The other issue is that I don't see her absence of warmth or reminders of his bastard status as something malicious; it's the "truth." I also don't see evidence that she felt anything negative toward Jon personally, but rather held a grudge toward his presence in her household, and although I think this is something of a character flaw on her part, I think it does make a difference in how I read her behavior.

I know this is a topic that just multiplies and multiplies, so I wonder if some of the debate aspects might be better suited to the thread I linked. I'm not trying to censor anything here, only that I know this is a whole topic on its own, and could easily consume the thread. I don't think there's an issue so far and it's been discussed very nicely here, it just that it seems we're all a little reluctant to get out of control, lol.

[Lady of Long Lake]

Winterfellian, as usual I love your posts!

Mikeygigs, I very much agree with you the reason Jon chooses the Night's Watch is because Jon thinks it is about the only way he would be considered a true Stark.

.....and make Ned proud of him.

But when she smelled Ghost, she sat down on her haunches and yelped at them."

I thought it was interesting because yelping with dogs can actually be a sign of submission...and Nymeria submitting herself to either Ghost or both Ghost and Jon may have more to it than meets the eye...Just a Thought!!!

That is interesting and I totally missed the submissive stance. Nymeria is the Alpha in all of her other circumstances throughout the books.

[Florina Laufeyson]

*crawls back into the blankie fort*

Sorry, its been a while. A lot of junk sorta just happened IRL. Anyway...

Oh these chapters....Boy howdy.

Im going to focus a bit here on Jon's demeanor in Jon II. Because i think this is important and really shows us what kind of person Jon is.

He reached the landing and stood for a long moment, afraid. Ghost nuzzled at his hand. He took courage from that.

Ghost being around helps Jon draw up his courage.

Jon has to draw up courage in order to face Bran and Cat. Mostly Cat. But he decides to face her for Bran's sake anyway. This, i think, is very important to how Jon works later on.

Jon has to face turning on his brothers of the Night's Watch and join the wildlings, all for the good of the Watch and doing what he was ordered. Ghost helped him draw courage for that as well. Jon faces what he doesnt want to face with a cold sort of acceptance.

It was a long walk down to the yard.

This is Jon's thought after the confrontation with Cat. No malice, no real fear, nothing. Just a long walk.

“You Starks are hard to kill,” Jon agreed.

I like this not just because its true, but Jon knows. The Starks are made of strong stuff. He understands his family's dynamic rather well. He put on a strong face for Robb here. Something he must do as Lord Commander of the Night's Watch further on. Jon is a lot like Ned in this way, how he tries so hard to not show fear. Ned's line to Bran: “That is the only time a man can be brave” seems to resonate in Jon a lot. Especially because he told Bran: “And don’t look away. Father will know if you do.”

Jon refuses to look away.

Next, we see Jon's blind spot in Arya.

Arya gave him a whap on the arm with the flat of her blade. The blow stung, but Jon found himself grinning like an idiot.

lol. Jon grinning like an idiot is quite rare. Having tried to be the cold, unfeeling type, he gives Arya Needle and lets himself loose a bit.

“Different roads sometimes lead to the same castle. Who knows?”

I hope he's right. But i think he is in a lot of ways. Jon's road leads him to be a Lord in his own right, much like Ned. How interesting.

[The Sleeper]

I think the three realtionships that are examined in this are betwen Jon, Robb, Arya and Cat. Bran is unconscious and acts as a medium between the two. He is the only reason these two would meet willingly and becomes a vehicle through which they express themselves to eachother. Cat sees Jon's love for his siblings and Jon sees Cat's anguish, particularly when she blames herself for praying to the gods to keep Bran by her side. And we get a glimpse of the secret life at Winterfell. And its name is Jon Snow.

I think in order to understand Cat's feeling towards Jon we need to look at the circumstances that brought Ned and Cat together. Ned essentially stepped in his brother's place to secure a vital alliance in a time of war. Then Ned brings his bastard home, raises him like his other children and demonstrates exterme devotion to the memory of Jon's mother going to the point to scare his new bride. As Ned, honorbound that he is, did not have much choice in his wedding it is not a stretch to think that Ned woulld have preffered to have chosen Jon's mother as his bride and therefore sees Jon as the heir that should have been instead of Cat's children. It is also a part of Ned that Cat will never know and share, something alien that has existed in her family since the beginning, something which might even be strong enough to supplant her. Jon favoring Ned aggravates these feelings and so does the fact that her children love him. As much as Cat makes Jon fell a stranger in his own home, Jon unwittingly has the exact same effect on Cat.

In this scene Cat is at her most vulnerable. A moment which she would have trouble sharing with anyone and Bran is her soft spot and Jon is there. It is an extreme violation.

In the narrative, Cat eventually is right. Jon is a second son, like Ned, he measures all he does to what he thinks his father would have done, he eventually rules invoking Ned's name. Jon is Ned's true heir, even if he turns out to be a Targaryen after all.

In this chapter the children are also set on their path. Robb becomes a lord, Jon heads to the Night's Watch, Sansa heads to court, Arya gets a sword and Bran is transofrmed, dreaming with his eyes open.

[Elba the Intoner]

So I finally finished reading through the thread so far and the Jon chapters that have been discussed. I don't have much to add as I think everyone has done a great and very thorough job so far. So, I'll just mention that I noticed something in Arya's first chapter that seemed to foreshadow Robb's campaign against the Lannisters. It's funny how this must have been my fourth time reading this chapter and I never noticed it before. That's what I love about rereads is that I always seem to find something new each time. So, I don't know if this has ever been mentioned before, perhaps in the moments of foreshadowing threads somewhere, but this scene with Jon watching the sparring in the yard below from afar seems to be what happens with Robb later:

Joffrey shrugged. "Come and see me when you're older, Stark. If you're not too old." There was laughter from the Lannister men.

Robb's curses rang through the yard. Arya covered her mouth in shock. Theon Greyjoy seized Robb's arm to keep him away from the prince. Ser Rodrik tugged his whiskers in dismay.

Joffrey feigned a yawn and turned to his younger brother. "Come, Tommen," he said. "The hour of play is done. Leave the children to their frolics."

That brought more laughter from the Lannisters, more curses from Robb. Ser Rodrick's face was beet-red with fury under the white whiskers. Theon kept Robb locked in an iron grip until the princes and their party were safely away.

Jon watched them leave, and Arya watched Jon. His face had grown as still as the pool at the heart of the godswood....

Robb does try to go "see" Joffrey when he is older though not very old, when he tries to go after them to fight them in the war, but Theon's actions in joining up with his family as rulers of the Iron Islands is one of the main things that holds Robb back from going after the Lannisters successfully until it's too late. Jon of course never goes to fight in Robb's war but learns of these events later, while he is in the North, which is tied to the godswood imagery.

[Ragnorak]

Jon III (GoT)

Summary

The chapter begins with the end of the practice session in the yard as Jon beats his last opponent. After the practice four other recruits confront him in the armory and a fight ensues. Donal Noye stops it and sends the others on their way but keeps Jon behind to give him a lecture about his attitude and the Nights Watch. Jon leaves and meets Tyrion who invites him to share a meal. When they sit down to eat Thorne interrupts them to tell them Mormont wants to see Jon. Tyrion forces the reason out of Thorne and Jon sprints to Mormont's chamber to hear what news there is of Bran. Jon is elated to hear that Bran is alive and uses the opportunity of the commotion his celebration causes to offer to help Grenn learn to fight.

Observations

The courtyard rang to the song of swords.

“Enough!” Ser Alliser Thorne had a voice with an edge like Valyrian steel.

Once there was a muffled thump as a blanket of snow slid from a roof and landed near them.

Hmm...

There were nineteen skulls. The oldest was more than three thousand years old

The Watch had built nineteen great strongholds along the Wall, but only three were still occupied

Tyrion II

The flint hills rose higher and wilder with each passing mile, until by the fifth day they had turned into mountains, cold blue-grey giants with jagged promontories and snow on their shoulders. When the wind blew from the north, long plumes of ice crystals flew from the high peaks like banners.

Words are wind. An interesting contrast to the words of their oath.

Words won’t make your mother a whore. She was what she was, and nothing Toad says can change that.

Is Ghost juggling connected to any mummery theme? I don't see one but I thought I'd ask. So far I see brutal honesty where both affection and antipathy are freely expressed without any masking which is quite the contrast from our Kings Landing POVs.

Analysis

Family

This chapter seems primarily focused on family.

The memory of her laughter warmed him on the long ride north.

Finally he looked north. He saw the Wall shining like blue crystal, and his bastard brother Jon sleeping alone in a cold bed, his skin growing pale and hard as the memory of all warmth fled from him.

This is what we see play out. Jon is used to practicing in the yard with Robb-- "his rival and best friend and constant companion." Rival is not at all negative. Competition is what drives us to excel; it challenges us to achieve beyond what we would do in response to our own internal expectations. Jon is angry and venting on the practice field but not any harder than he would have gone at Robb on any given day. We see this comparison between his old brother and the new ones in his thoughts.

Most were two or three years his senior, yet not one was half the fighter Robb had been at fourteen.

<evaluations of their respective skills>

The more time he spent with them, the more Jon despised them.

The images of this cold fill the chapter

Jon said icily.

Jon was cold with rage

I hate it here. It’s too… it’s cold.

He could feel the great weight of all that ice pressing down on him

Under black wool, boiled leather, and mail, sweat trickled icily down Jon’s chest as he pressed the attack.

Chunks of coal burned in iron braziers at either end of the long room, but Jon found himself shivering. The chill was always with him here. In a few years he would forget what it felt like to be warm.

This last one is particularly illustrative.

He sat on a bench, his fingers fumbling with the fastenings on his cloak. So cold, he thought, remembering the warm halls of Winterfell, where the hot waters ran through the walls like blood through a man’s body. There was scant warmth to be found in Castle Black; the walls were cold here, and the people colder.

A cloak is a symbol of protection but also a symbol of one's House, one's family. Jon is fumbling with the symbol of family. He misses the warmth of Winterfell, of family, of home. The blood that flows through a man's veins literally defines his family. This Winterfell image mirrors the last two chapters. In Jon I, he was part of the inside of Winterfell and the talk of the Nights Watch is what drove him outside to be alone. In Jon II, Winterfell has become quiet and lonely inside and his place is outside in the swirling snows.

At the end it is this family he misses that allows him to join this new family he's found. The joy of one brother living gives him the opportunity (and possibly motivation) to use the same memory of fighting Robb that angered him so much at the opening of the chapter to break the ice with what will be his new brothers for the rest of this reread by admitting that Robb used the same move on him that he used on Grenn. Thinking back on the covered bridge metaphor Jon runs to the Commander's Keep where he gets the strength and warmth to overcome this inner coldness. He traces his finger around the wax direwolf in the keep and this symbol of family what gives him the strength to openly embrace his new life.

POV Structure

From a character perspective I think it is paramount that Jon is swayed by the accusation of being a bully, but Donal Noye's lesson is really one about points of view. Jon grew up an outsider and a lesser figure among lords in constant awareness that his bastard status made everyone around him "better." From his perspective he has never considered himself better than anyone except through merit (like a better sword than Robb.) Noye's lesson is about forcing Jon to change his POV and see himself through other people's perspectives. This touches on the method used to write the books and we've seen examples of this play out in Jon already. We've discussed seeing Jon as the idolized older brother through Bran and Arya, seen him reflected on in Cat's chapters, and been able to compare those to being in his head. We have this interesting comparison between Jon and Tyrion:

The boy absorbed that all in silence. He had the Stark face if not the name: long, solemn, guarded, a face that gave nothing away. Whoever his mother had been, she had left little of herself in her son.

Jon remembered the wish he’d wished in his anger, the vision of Benjen Stark dead in the snow, and he looked away quickly. The dwarf had a way of sensing things, and Jon did not want him to see the guilt in his eyes.

There's also the feeling of friendship towards Tyrion we get from both their perspectives. Do we get more of this through Jon than other POVs? Not just things like Jon later seeing things from Aemon's perspective after learning he's a Targaryen but eventually having Sam and Melisandre as POVs that overlap with Jon's. I don't want to jump ahead but I thought it might be something to keep in mind as we move forward. There's definitely more overlap than someone like Dany who is never seen from another POV, but I'm not sure if I'm just forgetting other overlaps or if there is really is more with Jon. He and Sam will share the only scene that is shown from two POV's which does stand out. If Jon is noteworthy in this regard does it connect back to Ghost being the direwolf whose eyes were already open?

Elements of the Future

Noye gives Jon his first lesson at the Wall and it is one tied to leadership. Noye will also be the one who first puts Jon in charge of the Wall and this very armory is the one Jon will take as his home when he becomes LC. Reflecting again back on the covered bridge metaphor, Jon is still in the armory and moving further away from embracing the great keep that bridge connects to. Thorne tells them that all they're good for is arrow fodder and this lot will make straw NW men to be used as arrow fodder. Noye remembers each man's name and history compared to Jon who doesn't remember the name's of the two men Yoren brought or the name of the man singing as Benjen sets out-- something Jon will later emulate. There's also Noye's comment about sleeping with a dagger foreshadowing Jon's fate at the end of Dance. Jon has also made Hardin's Tower is home which will later be where he chooses to house the spearwives and Mormont's raven crying "Live, live" may well be prophetic as well. Tyrion describes it as

That’s the one with the broken battlement, no? Shattered stone in the yard below, and a lean to it like our noble king Robert after a long night’s drinking?

Tyrion's Advice

Tyrion advised Jon to armor himself in his bastard status and again advises him to armor himself in his "Lord Snow" nickname here. Having just reread Tyrion's chapters, Tyrion himself was not entirely successful in following his own advice. Tyrion mostly used self-deprecation and humor to deflect the issue. He used his wit to make people laugh before any of them had a chance to make japes of their own, but he was still quite sensitive about being a dwarf and being called "Imp" throughout the series. Jon is still sensitive about his bastard status and his mother as we see particularly with the fight in the armory and he objects strongly to "Lord Snow" on multiple occasions.

Instead of self-deprecation Jon uses humility with Grenn. He admits that he fell prey to the same move from his brother. He breaks the ice with humor with his comment about Ghost juggling but it isn't really a joke at Thorne's expense like Tyrion will do with Thorne and many others. Thorne chooses to be prickly about it and it is actually his own attempt at making a joke at the expense of the recruits that backfires. Jon empathized with the other recruits through Noye's lesson and saw gratitude in his bastard birth where he had previously seen mostly victimhood. He finds strength through his family to reach out and befriend these recruits whose friendship helps him truly internalize Tyrion's lessons about his bastard status and his nickname.

There seems to be a very intentional contrast between Jon and Tyrion regarding this lesson. Tyrion frequently admits his gratitude at being born a Lannister and is often confronted with situations where it is clear he is better off than even some fairly highborn nobles. Somehow this never translates into him internalizing his own lessons the way Jon will. Family, and to a lesser degree friends, seem to play a very large role in that difference. Both characters manage to get a series of accomplishments under their belt as the story progresses. Jon's result in an internal confidence that allows him to proudly be the bastard, Lord Snow. Even after leading men into battle (where a Sandor Clegane failed) to the sincere praise of "Halfman, Halfman," Tyrion is not able to do the same. I would suggest that the key difference is the relationship with their fathers which connects to Lummel's idea of a family centric theme. It is worth paying attention to how and when Jon comes to accept these as his own as we move forward.

[Mladen]

Best hope that great minds think alike and try to forget that fools seldom differ ;)

Once you've posted your essay you could cross post it here too or put in a post with a link. I'm sure some of us would enjoy it.

Lummel and Katsa, as promised,

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/85411-ice-and-fire-animal-project-wolves/

I hope you and the rest of forums will enjoy reading it.

[bbstark]

very nice thread, but I'd like to add something that comes from a chapter right before, namely Tyrion II.

It relates to Jon's connection to Ghost, and how Ghost reacted emotionally in a way that Jon seemed to want to, but didn't

I've always thought that in Bran I, Bran noticing that Ghost's eyes were open, meant that Jon will learn to warg first, and to me, this seemed as first evidence of an emotional connection strong enough to suggest the beginning of warging:

"well no doubt the Starks have been terribly good to you. I'm certain Lady Stark treats you as if you were one of her own. And your brother Robb, he's always been kind, and why not? He gets Winterfell and you get the Wall. And your father… he must have good reasons for packing you off to the Night's Watch… "

"stop it," Jon Snow said, his face dark with anger. "The Night's watch is a noble calling!"

Tyrion laughed. "You're too smart to believe that. The Night's Watch is a midden heap for all the misfits of the realm. I've seen you looking at Yoren and his boys. Those are your new brothers, Jon Snow, how do you like them? Sullen peasants, debtors, poachers, rapers, thieves and bastards like you all wind up on the Wall, watching for grumkins and snarks and all the other monsters your wet nurse warned you about. The good part is there are no grumkins or snarks, so it's scarcely dangerous work. The bad part is you freeze your balls off, but since you're not allowed to breed anyway, I don't suppose that matters."

"Stop it!" the boy screamed. He took a step forward, his hands coiling into fists, close to tears.

Suddenly, absurdly, Tyrion felt guilty. He took a step forward, intending to give the boy a reassuring pat on the shoulder or mutter some word of apology.

He never saw the wolf where it was or how it came at him. One moment he was walking toward Snow and the next he was flat on his back on the hard rocky ground, the book spinning away from him as he fell, the breath going out of him at the sudden impact, his mouth full of dirst and blood and rotting leaves. As he tried to get up, his back spasmed painfully. He must have wrenched it in the fall. He ground his teeth in frustration, grabbed a root, and pulled himself back to a sitting position. "Help me", he said to the boy reaching up a hand.

Now I think you could maybe argue that Ghost was protecting Jon, since Tyrion did move closer, but I'm not sure if Tyrion could seriously be seen as a physical threat even to a wild animal. I think there's another interpretation here.

I think it quite likely that Jon was extremely emotionally distressed, whether it's because he's always feared what Tyrion is telling him is correct, or because he's heard it for the first time and refuses to believe it.

In any case, Jon steps forward and threatiningly makes a fist with his hands, but he doesn't DO anything. Instead Ghost does what Jon seems to have an urge to do, he attacks Tyrion.

I think it's possible through an emotional, and by extension warging connection Ghost reacts FOR Jon, or perhaps Jon THROUGH Ghost.

I don't think that up to now there is such a strong emotional connection of any of the other kids with their wolves. And I do think that this part of Tyrion II is important to understanding Jon's development.

Edited for clarity

[Fire Eater]

Hmm...

There were nineteen skulls. The oldest was more than three thousand years old

The Watch had built nineteen great strongholds along the Wall, but only three were still occupied

Nice catch, it foreshadows Dany's dragons hatching from the eggs.

Noye's advice to Jon is akin to the advice Nick Carroway recieved from his father when he thinks about Gatsby, who like many of the NW recruits, was a criminal: "Whenever you feel like criticizing anyone, just remember that all the people in this world haven't had the advantages that you've had."

Jon learns that while he was a bastard with a degraded status, he still had certain advantages growing up that the new recruits didn't have.

As for Tyrion II, Tyrion is reading about dragons and thinking about Aegon the Conqueror who had two wives to be interrupted by Jon, Aegon's descendant and a dragon, fathered by a man who had two wives.

[Manderlay]

Jon III (GoT)

:thumbsup: Very good analysis and tbh I cant think of anything to add as you have covered it so well, To me how you showed us the contrast between Jon and Tyrion was interesting, how Tyrion gives Jon sound advice but does not apply that advice to himself, also your point of the differences in their relationships with their fathers.

Now I think you could maybe argue that Ghost was protecting Jon, since Tyrion did move closer, but I'm not sure if Tyrion could seriously be seen as a physical threat even to a wild animal. I think there's another interpretation here.

I think it quite likely that Jon was extremely emotionally distressed, whether it's because he's always feared what Tyrion is telling him is correct, or because he's heard it for the first time and refuses to believe it.

In any case, Jon steps forward and threatiningly makes a fist with his hands, but he doesn't DO anything. Instead Ghost does what Jon seems to have an urge to do, he attacks Tyrion.

I think it's possible through an emotional, and by extension warging connection Ghost reacts FOR Jon, or perhaps Jon THROUGH Ghost.

I agree completely, in later chapters of stark siblings we also find that their dire wolves take after them, even sansa, we can easily see the contrast between summer and shaggy dog, good catch!

"But when she smelled Ghost, she sat down on her haunches and yelped at them."

I found this interesting as well, Nymeria's reaction to Ghost tells us that when the dire wolves are together, Ghost could have been considered as the pack leader by the dire wolves, as at the time in Winterfell when all dire wolves were present, Ghost was also the largest.

[Melonica Stormborn]

While I was able to read and comment on Jon II last time, I was only able to catch up with Catelyn II and Arya I today. I think previous posters made good points regarding Jon's relationship with the two.

Regardless of personal feelings toward each other, Catelyn is arguably one of the most influential females in Jon's life besides Arya. These two ladies have profound effects on how Jon defines himself as a person. Jon knows his place because of Cat but doesn't feel so out of place because he has someone to relate to in Arya.

Arya's view of Jon seems to go beyond admiration, she looks up to Jon as someone who can make sense of the unfairness she thinks she's going through because, well, Jon's been there. I think Arya is concerned about being a bastard not only because of the social implications (we know she's friendly to commoners and barely acts like a lady) but because she's scared that she will not have a mother like Jon. Being concerned about having the Stark look and being insecure about Sansa is I think about that. Cat is cold towards Jon and supposedly exasperated with Arya so that could have been a form of unspoken bond.

The quote about the arms and coats, contrasted with the emphasis on Jon and Arya's similar Stark look and closeness sounded like an exercise in duality. Jon has something Arya can't have and vice versa.

The bridge again was a great example of the seeing/observing pattern, they had a full view of the events, which seemed to me like a simplified version of the upcoming war.

Now off to rereading Tyrion II and Jon III. I'm enjoying the reread better than the other book I'm reading, hehe. :)

[Dagon Greyjoy]

Let's say for the sake of argument (I don't want to enter on the RLJ debate) that Jon is Nedd Stark's child with Ashara Dayne. For all we know, had Brandon lived Ned would have wed Ashara. It is quite clear that Ashara fell for a Stark and slept with a Stark at Harrenhal. Jon could actually be Ned's firstborn son, even if he says otherwise to assuage Cat's fears, and because he doesn't want a clash of claims between his trueborn son Robb and his lovechild Jon, because he doesn't want to offend the Tullys.

If Cat knew anything at all about the Ashara Dayne rumors, she has every right to feel extremely threatened by Jon. Possibly Ned's firstborn. Possibly the child of his one true love. Quite likely his favorite child. Humbled by his bastard station to the point where he won't consider himself leaps and bounds above those he would come to rule. Should Robb prove a disappointment in any way, or should the Starks and the Tullys, even Ned and Cat, ever have any sort of falling out, if Jon is truly Ned and Ashara's child, clearly a Stark and clearly fit to rule, there's no reason at all why Ned wouldn't legitimize him. He's not the child of some random tavern wench, but the child of the woman Ned loved and was initially supposed to marry. King Bob was extremely loyal to Ned Stark (his one redeeming quality), so from the legal standpoint he wouldn't have no trouble at all legitimizing Jon.

I don't think the average reader comprehends just how extreme the threat Jon posed for Cat's position actually was.

[Isildur's Mane]

Great analysis, Ragnorak. I'm still re-reading so I'll comment later.

As for Tyrion II, Tyrion is reading about dragons and thinking about Aegon the Conqueror who had two wives to be interrupted by Jon, Aegon's descendant and a dragon, fathered by a man who had two wives.

Fire Eater, this was a nice catch - I never noticed this before. GRRM is brilliant in how he does this type of thing, isn't he?

[nenya~]

The images of this cold fill the chapter

This last one is particularly illustrative.

Chunks of coal burned in iron braziers at either end of the long room, but Jon found himself shivering. The chill was always with him here. In a few years he would forget what it felt like to be warm.

From another reread thread (can't remember who posted it), but Bran sees Jon in his coma dream

Finally he looked north. He saw the Wall shining like blue crystal, and his bastard brother Jon sleeping alone in a cold bed, his skin growing pale and hard as the memory of all warmth fled from him.

[Mladen]

Ragnorak, as always, you indeed were brilliant in your analysis. It was insightful, wonderfully presented and beautifully written. And you left us with so little to discuss :)

I would focus now on 2 parts of your analysis. The first one is POV we have seen Jon from, and the Tyrion/Jon comparison in terms of family. For me this change of venue of Jon`s POVs brings a fresh air into his story. In this POV, he isn`t brother or son, or even hatred bastard. He is young man struggling in harsh world. Unlike warmth of Winterfell that has protected him, the coldness of the Wall will bring maturity to him. He is like the little bird that has left the safety of the nest and now must face the harsh winds that blow. It`s not easy, but somehow he manages it. One day at the time

The other, and also great aspect is Tyrion/Jon family issues, and the way they mirror each other. Tyrion was part of family that considered him outsider, and Jon was outsider whose family thought of him like one of them. Ironically, in Jon I, we have seen how the roles changed during feast. Outsider remained that, while Tyrion was according to his status, honorable guest. But, there is something neither of them can deny. Although they feel some resentment and perhaps a bit of jealousy, they love their family. Their loyalty is never questioned. Tyrion has done some really shady things for his family, while Jon was ready to go over his vows for his. And yet, as for all the similarities, one is great difference. Jon`s love is unconditioned. It doesn`t change, it doesn`t fade. Not to jump way ahead, but quick mention of Tyrion/Tywin and Jon/Sansa matter of inheritance of their respective castles. And although Tyrion`s story differs from Jon`s, his inability to love against all odds, like Jon, is what set another path for him.

Again, Ragnorak, congrats on great work. It was indeed pleasure reading it.

[Winterfellian]

Rag, you must be tired of hearing this, but great work!

Not much to add right now, just the following-

Bran's description of the NW comes to mind: Going to the watch It was almost as good as going south with the king. I think there's a nice contrast that can be made of this. Watching what the NW and it's complete decay both institutionally and physically (in terms of castles and recruits) makes you wonder if it really this is as good as traveling with the royal party, to a place like King's Landing, a true city and the house of Kings from 300 years past. Jon's siblings and his father traveled to a place where summer still lingered while Jon went to a place where every remnant of warm is literally taken from you the closer you get to the destination.

Yet at the same time, while Jon and his traveling party, though cold, arrived safe and sound at the wall, the Starks with the royal party suffered heavy losses (Lady, Nymeria, Mycah). Where Jon starts to develop a friendship with Tyrion Lannister, enmity starts to seep in the relationships between Sansa and Arya and even Ned and Robert. While Jon goes to a place where the hard truths are delivered quite harshly, but delivered anyway (you didn't win, the aurochs lost; on the wall a man gets what he earns; you're no ranger Jon) Ned and the girls go to a place where lying is a form of living.

About Jon's talk with Donal Noye...

We have been exploring Jon's actual immaturity juxtaposed with the adoring representation he gets from 2 younger siblings. I like that in this chapter we see that Jon's immaturity appears in two very different contexts. One is the natural immaturity product of his age and sheltered upbringing. The other one is a self imposed immaturity based on Jon's refusal to accept and embrace a hard truth- Jon despises his fellow recruits, he wants to make solitude his armour, he hates the wall etc.

Through his talk with Donal After his talk we see Jon emerges from his self-imposed immaturity and in the spirit of what I think is one of the themes in this chapter learns to accept the hard truth. But the truths he accepts I find it to be particularly hard because they are all about himself- he's a bully, who his mother was cannot define him and that his upbringing wasn't nearly as hard or unfair as he thought he was.

Also, the solitude armour, while conceptually appears to be the same armour Jon wears in ADWD in analysis it is so much different. In ADWD he had to adopt it (and reluctantly) as a means of coping with the burdens of leadership. This less matured Jon does it as a coping mechanism for his disillusionment of the NW and his fellow recruits and his refusal to accept them for what they are.

[Ragnorak]

Thank you, everyone for the kind words.

There were three references to snow that I saw and Lummel's observation from last chapter about the summer snow representing Jon has me thinking about them. There's the snow falling off the roof as Jon and Tyrion walk by which seems deliberately meaningful but I have no ideas, there's Jon remembering the buildings of Castle Black dotting the snow as a first approaches (which could foreshadow this becoming his place as LC but has more potential,) and his imagining Benjen dying with his blood staining the snow. That last one seems to be a contrast to Tyrion wishing his relatives dead by fire back in Tyrion II. Any thoughts?

We meet Mormont's raven for the first time and he says "corn" and "live." Jon also cries that scene. Jon crying has come up in all three chapters so far. Is tears of shame, tears of fear, and tears of love accurate? Jon thinking of how none of the Wildlings cry and how tears freeze on their cheeks in Dance comes to mind.

The cold/warmth dynamic surrounding family brings Robert talking to Ned in the crypts to mind where he talks of the beauty and bounty of the warm South. Robert might have been a good king if someone had hidden him under snow for a time. That scene in the crypts is one that plays out in expressions of warmth and cold, North and South, and it is all about family on multiple levels across multiple generations.

Winterfellian, I really like your point about solitude armor. The immature armor here really is a coping mechanism that his lack of maturity "forces" him to choose. Later that solitude as LC is a mature choice despite his emotional wants. Ironic that maturity and responsibility will lead him to the same place he escapes.

[Isildur's Mane]

So, I re read the chapter.

We start to see Jon learning his lessons already, and learning them quickly. We already had Tyrion's lessons to him (not letting his bastard name get to him/ making it his armour), now we see Donal Noye giving him a (harsher) lesson.

I think this, along with knowing that Bran has woken helps him to lossen up a bit with his new brothers and not be so cold towards them.

I possibly should wait til next chapter, but it's on my mind now.

I really like the relationship between Jon and Tyrion... I find it oddly strange but somehow touching at the same time. But tonight, while rereading I couldn't help but ask - why them? Why are they friends? Maybe I'm looking too deeply into this, possibly I am.

They are both outsiders, yes, but Tyrion didn't have to go to the wall.

The cold is definitely emphasised in this chapter, but as time goes on it almost feels like it's forgotten/not as noticable. ETA - at least, for awhile.