Dany's regression as a character from books 2 through 5

[gash]

Astapor is a slave society, the people who live there are raised to believe slave holding is the correct way of life. Killing them outright for happening to live in that society when you don't even know if they really own slaves or if they want to change things or know one single thing about them is disgusting, its crazy.

If she wanted to end slavery, more power to her. Mass murder is not the way to do it. Do you really expect me to believe that every single adult wearing a tokar deserved to be murdered? That's crazy, I'm sorry, it would be like if Lincoln had killed everyone living in the South after the civil war or if we had killed all the adults in Germany after WWII. It's wrong.

oh dear.

[Frey Pentos]

Deserting the nights watch is a crime that carries a death sentence in Westeros.

Slavery was legal in Astapor. See the difference.

It doesn't matter whether it is abhorent, mass murder of an entire class of people because of what kind of clothing they are wearing down to 13 year olds is abhorent as well.

What she did makes her no different than the slavers in Astapor who think the lives of the slaves are of no importance. Either people deserve life and justice as individuals or they don't. All of them.

It's nothing to do with their clothes. They were the slaves owners and the enemies of herself and her people. As soon as she left they would have gone straight back to sending unsullied to murder new borns and feeding people to animals for their entertainment. Who gives a shit wether it was legal or not.

[Cas Stark]

It's nothing to do with their clothes. They were the slaves owners and the enemies of herself and her people. As soon as she left they would have gone straight back to sending unsullied to murder new borns and feeding people to animals for their entertainment. Who gives a shit wether it was legal or not.

I can't believe people really can't see that the concept of killing every adult in a tokar over the age of 13 is justifiable because they were slave holders or may have been slave holders, is completely off base.

It Is Mass Murder. It isn't justice, in the modern era it would be considered a war crime, a genocide.

It makes Dany no different than the good masters she killed because she doesn't see them as individuals with rights and stories and personalities and concerns, but as a monolith, EXACTLY the same way the good masters look at the slaves.

It's disappointing to see such a strange superficial understanding of concepts like justice and freedom that would be perverted into the idea that mass murder of an entire class of people without a trial or any showing of guilt, or indeed any proof that they belonged in the class of 'bad' people is a good thing to be cheered on, let alone, again the fact that the bad thing she killed them for was legal in their city.

[PrimeRhaegar]

i wouldn't say regressed cause she did admit her mistakes like letting jorah leave and the fact that she didn't take his advice and leave after she got her unsullied she finally is understanding that some people in her family were mad. She is getting growth she just hasn't realized she isn't fit to rule.

[The guy from the Vale]

It's nothing to do with their clothes. They were the slaves owners and the enemies of herself and her people. As soon as she left they would have gone straight back to sending unsullied to murder new borns and feeding people to animals for their entertainment. Who gives a shit wether it was legal or not.

But we do know that every free man in these cities wore a tokar, no matter his position on slaveowning, his wealth, or anything like it. Sure, killing everybody else made sure the slaves would stay alive, but it might well have killed the Astapori "Middle Class", so to speak - and those could have been her allies.

[SilentSense]

You're both wrong.

What Dany did isn't isn't even close to as reprehensible as what the slave masters are doing (creating the Unsullied, probably the single most reprehensible act in ASOIAF. 10k people who are castrated, mentally and physically tortured, rendered into absolutely obedient automatons who cannot feel sensations any longer, 30k murdered who died during this process, 10k babies killed).

On the other hand, the notion that it is morally justified to kill everyone wearing a tokar older than 12 in that city is patently absurd.

[Frey Pentos]

I can't believe people really can't see that the concept of killing every adult in a tokar over the age of 13 is justifiable because they were slave holders or may have been slave holders, is completely off base.

It Is Mass Murder. It isn't justice, in the modern era it would be considered a war crime, a genocide.

It makes Dany no different than the good masters she killed because she doesn't see them as individuals with rights and stories and personalities and concerns, but as a monolith, EXACTLY the same way the good masters look at the slaves.

It's disappointing to see such a strange superficial understanding of concepts like justice and freedom that would be perverted into the idea that mass murder of an entire class of people without a trial or any showing of guilt, or indeed any proof that they belonged in the class of 'bad' people is a good thing to be cheered on, let alone, again the fact that the bad thing she killed them for was legal in their city.

It was legal because the slave masters made the laws. She killed all the adult slave masters. Not the women or children. That's quite a moral stance for this world. You're right that in the modern world that would be a war crime but this isn't the modern world. If she hadn't killed them they would do everything in their power to get their status back and re - enslave the population. I won't shed a tear for the tokar wearers.

[Young Nan]

She does admit that she's been more "Khal than Queen" in her final ASOS chapter. She has screwed up big time by trying to overthrow the slave trade without taking advice or making decent plans, but she hasn't sank as low as Joffrey or the Bastard of Bolton, that's proven by the prudent way she deals with the bereaved father in ADWD.

However, she hasn't lived up to the potential for the character shown in AGOT, especially from her wedding onwards.

The "more Khal than queen" comment gives me hope for her, I hope that GRRM intended for her to screw up everything royally and then make a comeback in the next book. It seems like she is reflecting on the error of her ways, so maybe this is all part of her character arc.

GRRM tries to make his stories realistic. To think that a girl who had no responsibilities but to please her brother, then gets thrust into a position of power would not grow an ego or sense of entitlement is unrealistic.

If GRRM wrote her the way you people seem to want there would be a whole group of people saying that "this makes no sense". At the end of ADWD we seem to get a taste of a transformation of Dany into someone who is more competent, and less childish. HOPEFULLY. For all I know GRRM could take her down the "targaryan madness" route, which would be disappointing but it is his baby.

I guess we will have to wait and see how she develops in the next book. She seems to be starting back at square one with the Khalasar that she's probably going to take over.

Of course it is too early to say this but I think tWoW will bring Dany back on track. I started to dislike her story after she entered Mereen. I didn’t have any problems with her crucifying the slavers or wreaking havoc on the slave based economy system. Honestly, I was all “go fanatical on their ass Dany, Fire and Blood FTW”. But as soon as we arrived in Mereen, she stopped being interesting. Personally, I blame Daario. I strongly dislike that character (my least favorite character). Anyways, after musing about the Mereen-storyline and mentally erasing all the Daario shit, I have found peace with the storyline.

I think that Mereen is Martins answer to the old “Girl-gets-dragons-becomes-a-messiah-and-everything-turns-out-fine”-thrope. Mereen is about Dany being confronted with the difficulties of ruling. It shows that she’s still human and very vulnerable and yes, it shows that good intentions aren’t enough. In that way Mereen also serfs as a sort of reality check. Dany was never trained to become a leader, quite the reverse actually.

When you look at someone like Jon Snow, who mirrors Dany in a lot of ways, this is one of the big differences between the two. Jon learned alongside of Robb, basically learning how to be a good lord from Ned. After that he was continuously surrounded by great teachers (Benjen, Tyrion, Jeor, Aemon, Donal, Mance, Tormund, Stannis). Dany however was tutored by her crazy delusional brother, a not so trustworthy merchant, a horse hippie (aka Khal Drogo) and a Gay merchant. The only good teachers she has had were Ser Jorah (who she found out had spied on her) and Ser Barristan. In the old days, she was comfortable enough to shy away from the teachings of this bad group, but in Mereen we see Dany at her worst. She’s angry, scared and very lonely and instead of coping with her issues and finding her own way instantly (which isn’t exactly realistic), she falls back on what she has learned which lead to a whole shitload of half assed and utterly moronic decisions (Daario, Hizdahr, etc.).

I think Dany is finally realizing this when she jumps on Drogo’s back. She leaves the mess behind to be happy, but she realizes that her people need her (which shows that she is still on the good team) so she tries to get back. I think her stay on the Dothraki Sea with the new khalesar she’s going to take, in a place where she feels more comfortable, will lead to her better understanding of things. She’ll see that Daario is no good for her, that how she dealt with the Harpy and the Yunkishmen was far from ideal, that Hizdahr needs to go, that she should take some time to listen to Ser Barristan and talk about her family. Above all she’ll have to come to terms with her dragons, who represent that she needs to understand that to take the IT, she’ll need to resort to fire and blood and that those are two very unpleasant things to use on another human being.

I also Blame Daario, that guy sucks. He's like captain Jack Sparrow with blue hair.

Daario hate aside, I think that your assessment of how GRRM is using her character arc to defy a common fantasy theme may be accurate. GRRM makes a lot of comments about evaluating whether good people make good leaders, and so it is reasonable to think he may have some good people royally screw up at ruling, and have people like Tywin Lannister be a competant hand for almost 20 years to demonstrate the point he is trying to make regarding rulers.

I also see the parallels between her and Jon and agree that Jon has been much luckier in the teacher department. he has pretty much had a consistent string of awesome people teaching him, starting with Ned and Maester Luwin, ending with Halfhand, Mormont, and Aemon.

I think that the difference between Jon and Dany is that Jon has much more humility. This is probably due in large part to the fact that he is a bastard, and doesn't think of himself as entitled to anything, while Dany thinks of herself as a queen who is entitled to everything. It goes to show you how much a difference in self-perception can affect your ability to learn and to lead. I see Jon acquiring knowledge anywhere he can find it, even from his enemies if what they are saying to him makes sense, while I see Dany being willfully ignorant when people challenge her world view.

I don't blame her for it, as I can see how she could become that way. I hope that her experience with Drogon and her reflections in the dothraki sea will cause her to be a better leader by the time she gets back to Mereen.

[Ser Creighton]

Yes, I don't know if regressed or just stopped growing is more appropriate. I loved her at the end of GOT, her story in ACOK was a little dull, but still, I was rooting for her. But, ever since she had all the men in Astapor killed, and doesn't even really reflect on that possibly being a hasty/bad decision of mass murder, not only do I not root for her, but her decision making gets worse and worse, its more of the same.

I said on another Dany thread that I have no idea what the author thinks he's making me feel or if I am supposed to be sympathetic to this person who has made herself queen and is totally bored by ruling, loses patience and then resorts to violence again and again. But, I'm not sympathetic to her anymore. She is not "bad" but she has no business ruling anyone, someone whose instinct when Plan A doesn't work is always 'okay, kill them' isn't much of a leader.

Yeah like when instead of ordering house to house searches she gets married in or order to prevent anymore killings. Or when she thought her Dragons may be killing people she locked and chained them to prevent them from killing anyone. I know she has had people killed but it's not what she always does. If you don't like the character that's fine, but no need to make false claims. For a 15 year old put in that position with no formal training she has done better than most. If always view certain characters through hindsight your always going to think they are wrong.

[lady m]

in ASOFAI a thirteen year old is a man or woman grown.

No it is not. It is 16, which is why Joffrey had to have a regent rule in his name till he reached his 16th name day. So, yes, she ordered the mass killing of children.

Also, I do not believe it is ever said that it is only worn by slavers, or slave owners. It is worn by the non slaves, similar to a toga which was worn by those who were citizens of Rome.

[A Man Has Said]

She went from the little girl who wanted nothing more than to return to the house with the red door --

-- to a female version of Viserys; arrogant, cruel, unforgiving and with an over-riding feeling of entitlement to everything she does.

(perhaps briefly dampened when she was shown the bones of the child Drogon killed.)

I'm thinking of the ubiquitous trailer for the TV show I keep seeing with Emilia Clarke's Danaerys screaming, "Where are my dragons?"

It's just unfocused, imperious, demanding in the manner of a child having a tantrum.

I think it's a pretty good portrayal of what Dany around the time she's in Qarth.

[the trees have eyes]

I don't like that Dany is "learning to rule" in Mereen, I think it's a major flaw that she even views it that way. She sacked these cities and abolished slavery, their way of life (albeit, a bad way of life) and disrupted the global economy, gaining tons of enemies in the process, just so she could basically "test drive" Mereen to see how it is to rule.

If there is one argument that should never be allowed to go unchallenged it is that abolishing slavery was a terrible thing because it had an impact on the global economy and changed a people's way of life. That is an intolerable excuse for doing nothing about slavery. From our comfortable western democracies we can wring our hands about any kind of action that might cause bloodshed or even economic instability. That is because we are pampered and privileged and we have no difficult decisions left to make. The very name of Slavers' Bay says it all and I will never fault Dany for destroying the slave society and economy. Was there a perfect solution to put in place afterwards? No. She left a council to rule in Astapor, an attempt at good governance. when that failed she settled down to rule in Meereen to ensure it did not suffer a similar fate. She is emphatically not testing her ability to rule in some kind of control environment where she does not care what happens so she can then go and do it for real in Westeros. This is not a practice exam: she cares. That's why she is still there. All these people so bent on criticising Dany that they ignore how barbaric the slave culture was should go back and read how the Unsullied were "trained", how they were groomed to take a newborn child from it's mother's arms and kill it in front of her and then recompense the mother's owner, or read how the Grand Masters of Meereen crucified and disembowelled 160-odd slave children just to taunt Dany. You all need to find your moral compass, Dany's is better than yours.

[Cas Stark]

You're both wrong.

What Dany did isn't isn't even close to as reprehensible as what the slave masters are doing (creating the Unsullied, probably the single most reprehensible act in ASOIAF. 10k people who are castrated, mentally and physically tortured, rendered into absolutely obedient automatons who cannot feel sensations any longer, 30k murdered who died during this process, 10k babies killed).

On the other hand, the notion that it is morally justified to kill everyone wearing a tokar older than 12 in that city is patently absurd.

if she had only ordered the slave masters involved in the unsullied training killed i would be 100% behind it, yes, that crime is probably the worst of the series. maybe even adding in the formal slave traders i could have agreed with.

but, not everyone wearing a tokar, that's nuts, and its not even known for sure that tokar=slave owner, let alone a 13 or 14 year old in a tokar being fair game. how in the hell does she know how many non slave owners spent their last dime on a new tokar so they could mingle with the elites and improve their non slave owning family's lot?

[Arakan]

Lets not be kidding ourselves. What Dani did in Astapor comes closest to genocide in ASOIAF as it is defined in the real world (please have a look if interested: http://www.hrweb.org/legal/genocide.html). Whatever her reasons and intentions have been to order this genocide and whether these intentions and reasons can be declared as "well meant" or not, is completely irrelevant, simply because this doesnt alter the fact that she ordered - well - genocide. Only fanboys and -girls deny the facts.

[Frey Pentos]

Lets not be kidding ourselves. What Dani did in Astapor comes closest to genocide in ASOIAF as it is defined in the real world (please have a look if interested: http://www.hrweb.org...l/genocide.html). Whatever her reasons and intentions have been to order this genocide and whether these intentions and reasons can be declared as "well meant" or not, is completely irrelevant, simply because this doesnt alter the fact that she ordered - well - genocide. Only fanboys and -girls deny the facts.

Let me get this right...we should disapprove of this fictional character because in this fictional world she committed a sort of genocide (modern concept) against another group of fictional people who themselves were guilty of crimes that the modern/real world would consider to be barbaric and illegal? Is that how it works? If we are going to turn this site into the war crimes tribunal then the list of characters waiting to go on trial is going to be very long. I'd rather just enjoy the series and world for what they are and I particularly enjoyed seeing the Slavers get what they deserved.

[Cas Stark]

Let me get this right...we should disapprove of this fictional character because in this fictional world she committed a sort of genocide (modern concept) against another group of fictional people who themselves were guilty of crimes that the modern/real world would consider to be barbaric and illegal? Is that how it works? If we are going to turn this site into the war crimes tribunal then the list of characters waiting to go on trial is going to be very long. I'd rather just enjoy the series and world for what they are and I particularly enjoyed seeing the Slavers get what they deserved.

I don't get your point.

This entire sight is devoted to reviewing the motives, personalities, merits and possible future actions of fictional characters, as well as their crimes or alleged crimes, both against the modern standard and the standard of their own world.

[A Man Has Said]

It would have been far more just if Dany had made the former slave owners into slaves,

..maybe sell them to a salt mine operation somewhere in the Shadow Lands.

They would have had no cause to complain about that. No reasonable cause anyway.

[Frey Pentos]

I don't get your point.

This entire sight is devoted to reviewing the motives, personalities, merits and possible future actions of fictional characters, as well as their crimes or alleged crimes, both against the modern standard and the standard of their own world.

Reviewing fictional 'crimes' against a modern standard of justice is just an incredibly moronic thing to do. Can't you see that? It defeats the purpose of fantasy fiction itself. It's stupid to judge real history by modern standards but fantasy as well? Jebus. Maybe Tolkien should have written a chapter in which the Orcs were given the choice of doing community service after the fall of Sauron. Killing them on sight is obviously genocide against an ethnic group.

[Cas Stark]

Reviewing fictional 'crimes' against a modern standard of justice is just an incredibly moronic thing to do. Can't you see that? It defeats the purpose of fantasy fiction itself. It's stupid to judge real history by modern standards but fantasy as well? Jebus. Maybe Tolkien should have written a chapter in which the Orcs were given the choice of doing community service after the fall of Sauron. Killing them on sight is obviously genocide against an ethnic group.

I can see that killing everyone in a tokar over the age of 12 in the city would be considered an atrocity in both Essos and Westeros.

Oh and in LOTR, the ors were waging war, so, see, soldiers and battles, that's different than killing every person wearing an item of clothing over a certain age just becasue.

[Frey Pentos]

I can see that killing everyone in a tokar over the age of 12 in the city would be considered an atrocity in both Essos and Westeros.

Really? The Dothraki would consider it an atrocity? The Ironborn? The freed slaves of Slavers Bay? Tywin Lannister? The Dornish would turn down an alliance with her because she did a nasty thing to the Slavers?