Book Spoiler-Did Varys know about LF plan for sansa in the book?

[crazibouncer]

I created a new thread but sometimes they don't go through. So here is my idea of what's really going on with Littlefinger:

I think I've worked out Littlefinger's ploy. You see, it never made any sense him suggesting that he take Sansa to the Eyrie straight away because how would he get away with it? The second Sansa disappears, everyone will wonder who could have done it and Tywin most certainly would realise that it's Littlefinger.

Instead, I think Littlefinger suspects he has a spy in his midst (Ros) and is trying to rat her out. Consequently, he leaves a false trail of immediate plans to take Sansa with him to the Eyrie and uses this as bait for Ros. This would not only make Littlefinger appear like a dangerous player of the game but it also reconciles his unusually cavalier approach of late.

If my theory is right, this is bad news for poor old Ros - because Littlefinger is already many steps ahead of her.

I was thinking the same thing. LF is aware of what Ros is doing and leading her on a false trail. I can't wait for next season when PW happens.

[Mulled Wino]

Of course you have to wonder how much Varys knows that he just doesn't bother to do anything about. Varys is absent from the docks when the riot happens Tyrion notes.

One also must consider that LF is as deft as anyone playing the game. We can assume anything we want, but people assume varys knows eeeeeverything and its a little old. Lf is a player in his own right and has gotten away with things before.

Lf was absent as well for whatever reason.

Varys just cant be the only person that knows EVERYTHING. Its so tedious and makes for a pretty lame game if we just assume he knows everything.

[Mulled Wino]

I created a new thread but sometimes they don't go through. So here is my idea of what's really going on with Littlefinger:

I think I've worked out Littlefinger's ploy. You see, it never made any sense him suggesting that he take Sansa to the Eyrie straight away because how would he get away with it? The second Sansa disappears, everyone will wonder who could have done it and Tywin most certainly would realise that it's Littlefinger.

Instead, I think Littlefinger suspects he has a spy in his midst (Ros) and is trying to rat her out. Consequently, he leaves a false trail of immediate plans to take Sansa with him to the Eyrie and uses this as bait for Ros. This would not only make Littlefinger appear like a dangerous player of the game but it also reconciles his unusually cavalier approach of late.

If my theory is right, this is bad news for poor old Ros - because Littlefinger is already many steps ahead of her.

Well, if tywin foils his plans by marrying off Sansa, how does he know who ros told and im sure she's not the ony one who knows he ordered 2 featherbeds.

[Montey14]

I think Little finger had already hashed this out with the tyrells when he got them back the iron throne.....It's kind of interesting that in the books robb admits a terrible mistake in not swapping jamie for his sisters and marrying her off to Loras to gain their backing......

[Shadow on the Wall]

The only problem is that Ros hasn't been spying on LF very long, basically no time at all (s2e10 <-> s3e1 in KL is however long it took Pod to find Bronn...)

Another problem is that LF truly does want to take Sansa to the Vale with him when he leaves, how he expects to get away with this is beyond me. Sansa is their most valuable hostage right now.

Finally, the Tyrell's and Lannister's finding out about the plot doesn't necessarily mean that LF has a spy, it might mean that Sansa was dumb enough to tell someone.

I was thinking particularly about the feather beds thing. Why on earth would Littlefinger be so unsubtle as to smuggle Sansa out directly with him? It makes no sense. The only way it could make sense is if he put it in there as a trick. You're right that it wouldn't be entirely convincing as there are other possibilities, but Ros is certainly a dispensable asset.

So yes, LF does want to take Sansa with him. But he's a clever man - and the plan that they supposedly uncover is far too stupid to be his actual plot.

Of course, the possibility remains that D&D haven't really thought this through all that carefully. I hope that is not it - but it's very possible.

[Mulled Wino]

I was thinking particularly about the feather beds thing. Why on earth would Littlefinger be so unsubtle as to smuggle Sansa out directly with him? It makes no sense. The only way it could make sense is if he put it in there as a trick. You're right that it wouldn't be entirely convincing as there are other possibilities, but Ros is certainly a dispensable asset.

So yes, LF does want to take Sansa with him. But he's a clever man - and the plan that they supposedly uncover is far too stupid to be his actual plot.

Of course, the possibility remains that D&D haven't really thought this through all that carefully. I hope that is not it - but it's very possible.

Ros is the only one who would know about the 2 featherbeds?

[Mammothsbane]

Ros is the only one who would know about the 2 featherbeds?

Well the show made it seem like Ros was running the letters, but there would have to be other people loading the boats and stuff. Unless Littlefinger is doing all the physical labor... which he probably isn't.

[Shadow on the Wall]

Ros is the only one who would know about the 2 featherbeds?

We don't know - but she could well be (other than the guys who make and carry them). But what I'm saying is that Littlefinger would never ever dare to take Sansa to the Eyrie at the same time as he was leaving himself. That would be madness as everyone would know that he was the one who stole Sansa.

So either he bought the feather beds in advance for a later plan or he bought them to weed out Ros as a spy. I think the latter would be a cooler storyline and more in keeping with his extremely sharp and devious nature. But the former is probably what will play out.

The absolute worst situation though, would be if D&D suggest that Littlefinger was planning to take Sansa with him there and then. Because that would be akin to Littlefinger purposefully screwing over himself.

[Lord of the Tides]

We don't know - but she could well be (other than the guys who make and carry them). But what I'm saying is that Littlefinger would never ever dare to take Sansa to the Eyrie at the same time as he was leaving himself. That would be madness as everyone would know that he was the one who stole Sansa.

So either he bought the feather beds in advance for a later plan or he bought them to weed out Ros as a spy. I think the latter would be a cooler storyline and more in keeping with his extremely sharp and devious nature. But the former is probably what will play out.

The absolute worst situation though, would be if D&D suggest that Littlefinger was planning to take Sansa with him there and then. Because that would be akin to Littlefinger purposefully screwing over himself.

Yeah, very sad if LF is shown to be this transparent, the decision to get rid of Dontos makes it a really easy plan to read. Surely he can´t be made that dumb.

[zaphodbrx]

The absolute worst situation though, would be if D&D suggest that Littlefinger was planning to take Sansa with him there and then. Because that would be akin to Littlefinger purposefully screwing over himself.

Really? I thought that made the most sense. LF is planning to take Sansa with him, but his plan is foiled by Varys/Ros. Simple as it gets.

You are confusing TV-Littlefinger with book-littlefinger. TV-Littlefinger is dumb as a post. He knows a bit about whore management but that's about it.

[Mulled Wino]

Really? I thought that made the most sense. LF is planning to take Sansa with him, but his plan is foiled by Varys/Ros. Simple as it gets.

You are confusing TV-Littlefinger with book-littlefinger. TV-Littlefinger is dumb as a post. He knows a bit about whore management but that's about it.

You are taking this a lot better than I am. Its making me nuts.

[Shadow on the Wall]

Really? I thought that made the most sense. LF is planning to take Sansa with him, but his plan is foiled by Varys/Ros. Simple as it gets.

You are confusing TV-Littlefinger with book-littlefinger. TV-Littlefinger is dumb as a post. He knows a bit about whore management but that's about it.

Depressing eh?

But I'm hopeful now that Varys says he's "one of the most dangerous men in Westeros". Would a dangerous man:

a) Concoct a stupid plan that will never work

B) Leak said plan to Ros without suspecting her or noticing that she took his inventory list with her

I hope not.

[Newstar]

It seems like in the books there was one plan and one plan only (hairnet/Joffrey's wedding), and that it was in the works way back, since Dontos approached Sansa in the first half of ACOK.

On the show, based on the information we have, it seems like there will be two plans:

Plan A: smuggle Sansa out on a ship when he leaves for the Eyrie (will fail when Sansa refuses to leave with him)

Plan B: hairnet/Joffrey's wedding

My problem with Plan A is that Varys seems to be acting as if Littlefinger is stealing away Sansa to marry her. Isn't he heading to the Vale with the promise that he will woo Lysa Arryn? Wouldn't marrying Sansa instead be a bit of a problem, for both Lysa and for Tywin, who sent him on the errand? (As Littlefinger pointed out, taking her would be treason.) Also, if Sansa disappears, right about when Littlefinger leaves the Vale, is there going to be any question at all as to who took her? It wasn't clear in the books because Littlefinger wasn't known to be in KL. If he leaves and Sansa mysteriously goes missing, everyone will know where she went, and Littlefinger would be accused of treason. Finally, the show has made a point of showing Sansa accompanied by two guards at all times. How is Littlefinger going to get around that?

One convoluted way this would work is if Plan A was never intended to be anything more than a ruse to put certain things in motion.

1. Littlefinger approaches Sansa with a plan to escape KL, supposedly to take her with him. He says he "might" be able to take her, meaning I think that if she doesn't wind up refusing him then he can just tell her that the timing is off and it won't work this time.

2. Ros (either acting as double agent or spilling information Littlefinger hoped she would spill) goes to Varys with her suspicions as to Littlefinger's intentions.

3. Varys goes to Olenna, who proposes a Loras/Sansa match (as Littlefinger probably figured she would).

4. Loras is engaged to Sansa.

5. Littlefinger goes to Sansa to fetch her, supposedly, and she refuses on the basis that she's to marry Loras...just as planned, as Littlefinger never had any serious intention of leaving with her at this point, anyway. I think Littlefinger is counting on her to refuse at this point.

6. Littlefinger leaks this information to Tywin.

7. Littlefinger leaves KL, having affirmed his loyalty to the Crown (and thwarted the Tyrells).

8. Tyrion marries Sansa.

9. Littlefinger somehow gets the purple hairnet to Sansa, PW proceeds as otherwise planned.

Of course, this depends on a lot of things Littlefinger might not have been able to reasonably anticipate, and he's also counting on Varys not openly accusing him of trying to spirit Sansa away, but if "Plan A" were nothing more than a roundabout way to get to his real aim and objective, then it would make Littlefinger look like the genius he is. It's one thing to nab her when she isn't trying to escape a horrible marriage and isn't wanted for murder: better to narrow her options first.

[Shadow on the Wall]

6. Littlefinger leaks this information to Tywin.

7. Littlefinger leaves KL, having affirmed his loyalty to the Crown (and thwarted the Tyrells).

I love this idea.

I don't think the pathway you suggested is the only solution - there are quite a few (as I've suggested). But using the leak as a way to curry favour with Tywin would be a great idea from Littlefinger's end.

We know next episode that Tywin will uncover the plot. If it's Littlefinger who tells him that would be excellent - although I won't get my hopes up.

[Newstar]

It would be even cooler if the "leak" was a situation Littlefinger had deliberately engineered by creating a set of circumstances that would lead to a Loras/Sansa engagement, rather than an improvised response to Olenna doublecrossing him.

There was a Varys/Littlefinger scene in the throne room shown in Season 3 trailers. Maybe Varys confronts Littlefinger about his shenanigans and realizes he's been used as a stepping stone for Littlefinger to get in good with Tywin. Brilliant! Varys will be all "But what about Sansa?" and Littlefinger will be all "What about her? You're talking to the future Lord Protector of the Vale, bitch!" Hopefully, there will be some mic-dropping involved.

[Shadow on the Wall]

It would be even cooler if the "leak" was a situation Littlefinger had deliberately engineered by creating a set of circumstances that would lead to a Loras/Sansa engagement, rather than an improvised response to Olenna doublecrossing him.

Yeah. that's what I'm hoping for.

[Shadow on the Wall]

There was a Varys/Littlefinger scene in the throne room shown in Season 3 trailers. Maybe Varys confronts Littlefinger about his shenanigans and realizes he's been used as a stepping stone for Littlefinger to get in good with Tywin. Brilliant! Varys will be all "But what about Sansa?" and Littlefinger will be all "What about her? You're talking to the future Lord Protector of the Vale, bitch!" Hopefully, there will be some mic-dropping involved.

I wouldn't get your hopes up. D&D have done a fantastic job with the asoiaf series but Littlefinger has been one of their weak links. I definitely think he is salvageable but until I start to see that happening I won't get too excited.

But yes, I'm a huge Varys fan and would love to see that scene. The two of them should be much more equal in intelligence than the show portrays.

EDIT: Actually, looking back. Littlefinger season 1 wasn't bad. I think the main problems were in season 2. So hopefully soon he'll be back on track.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1LXu-0X8ECw

[boojam]

The Tyrells never trusted LF further than they could throw him. They coordinated the PW with him, but that was at least as much in their interests as it was in his, and they made sure that Sansa and Tyrion would take the fall for it.

That's one of the oddest things in the books. It seems evident, tho I am still not sure, that the PW was a Tyrell - Little Finger conspiracy (tho there are those who think Tywin was mastermind of his grandson's own death).

After the PW LF is gone gone gone.

My suspicion is won't survive events at Erie , tho I don't know in what way.

Also Vary's 'King of the ashes' seemed like a hyperbola that Olenna did not really believe.

What Vary's is after in the teleplay has spins on it that are not in the book, but that's ok with me.

[zaphodbrx]

Personally I have given up on Show-Littlefinger.

The show clearly shows us that his main area of expertise is whore management. He's not that much into plotting and planning or being clever or subtle. In fact in the previous episode he practically tells Tyrion this, that financial management was 'just numbers', while whores are the 'real challenge'.

He has no proper people skills ( see his scenes with Catelyn/Cersei/etc. last season ).

He's not devious in the slightest. Stay within 10 yards of him and you will know everything he's planning.

In short, this is nothing like the character from the books.

This isn't personal, other characters have been dumbed down a lot, though not that badly..

Varys, for instance, requires Ros to point out the two feather beds on the ship.

He then jumps to two absurd conclusions. First that Littlefinger was going to marry Sansa ( hey idiot, he's going to marry Lysa ), and that this would give him control of the Northern army. That's like Viserys levels of stupid, as if he was going to command the Dothraki army because his sister married the Khal.

Tyrion is another example. He does not ever keep track of what he pays Bronn or Pod and is pretty much incompetent in being master of coin. He said it so himself, being a rich playboy doesn't exactly qualify you to be the treasurer..

I don't know where they are going with this, all the characters are in desperate need of an IQ boost. Perhaps a night with Ros should do it?

[Joyful Union]

Exactly, there is evidence suggesting Varys didnt know anything about it.

like what?