R+L=J v.48

[MasterJack]

A little correction here: what got her brother and father killed was Brandon's incredibly idiotic action and Aerys's mad response to it, and what started the war was Aerys' demand that Ned and Robert be executed and Jon Arryn rejecting the order and raising his banners. None of this Lyanna could have foreseen, and most likely didn't learn about any of these until it was too late. Ever since the moment Jon Arryn rebelled, the real reason of her disappearance no longer really mattered, it was either fight or lose heads for rebelling against sovereign.

At any moment i think the truth might have helped to save some lifes for sure.

[Ygrain]

At any moment i think the truth might have helped to save some lifes for sure.

No, it wouldn't. Rebelling against a liege is something that has to be put down, or else others might get ideas. Once this ball starts rolling, there's no way out of it until one party wins.

[MasterJack]

No, it wouldn't. Rebelling against a liege is something that has to be put down, or else others might get ideas. Once this ball starts rolling, there's no way out of it until one party wins.

And 3 KG and 5 good men had to die for sure at the TOJ. If she never eloped her father and brother wouldnt need to ask the king for explanation, she didnt want that but it happened, any sane person at this point would try to stop this folly, not hide in a tower.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

And 3 KG and 5 good men had to die for sure at the TOJ. If she never eloped her father and brother wouldnt need to ask the king for explanation, she didnt want that but it happened, any sane person at this point would try to stop this folly, not hide in a tower.

Seeing as we still don't know how the events unfolded or what information may have gotten lost or really anything about what exactly happened, I'd say this is all premature judgment.

[Kuther2000]

I am not a huge fan of Rhaegar and Lyanna, but I do think that Rhaegar did love Lyanna for what it is worth. It was probably best that they died then so that their love couldn't really change.

[Ygrain]

And 3 KG and 5 good men had to die for sure at the TOJ. If she never eloped her father and brother wouldnt need to ask the king for explanation, she didnt want that but it happened, any sane person at this point would try to stop this folly, not hide in a tower.

They DIDN'T ask for explanation. Brandon came yelling for the Crown Prince to come out and die, which, like it or not, is a treason. If he came asking for explanation, things might have happened very differently.

And, as I said before, she most likely never knew until too late. It's not like there was a live broadcast or instant messaging service.

[MasterJack]

Seeing as we still don't know how the events unfolded or what information may have gotten lost or really anything about what exactly happened, I'd say this is all premature judgment.

You are right. I just want to know why. BR/Bran/Howland say something please.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

They DIDN'T ask for explanation. Brandon came yelling for the Crown Prince to come out and die, which, like it or not, is a treason. If he came asking for explanation, things might have happened very differently.

And, as I said before, she most likely never knew until too late. It's not like there was a live broadcast or instant messaging service.

I'll also point out that Lyanna would have been in danger from both sides: Robert and the rebels, and Aerys.

[finger]

Someone has probably already thought of this, but i haven't seen it... might have some facts mixed up so forgive me.

After tKotLT incident, Rhaegar was sent to find this mysterious person. Is it possible that Rhaegar did infact find tKotLT (Lyanna), and being so impressed, offered to keep her identity a secret?

Could this have been the moment Rhaegar fell for Lyanna, and the reason he subsequently crowned her Queen of Love and Beauty?

Someone has, indeed. :thumbsup: I share this one, too.

I think it is how it all started. More so, it's needed to make sense.

Think otherwise: Rhaegar suddenly decided to crown Lyanna, without a word between them, before his wife, her betrothed and her family. The two of them had no communication yet.

Then one day, R summons his best friends in the KG and says them; "C'mon, guys, let's go after my one and only. After all, we're knights, and knights are supposed to ride the world is search of unheard adventures, aren't they?" And they go and ride into Lyanna, who, perchance, happened to be on their way very handy. And, the first word crossed between them, remember, R says L: "Gotcha!"

Then, R abduces L, and they are happy together, but not forever, because this is tragedy, and it must end up badly for the poor ol'em.

Plainly absurd.

Let me please complete your story. L was already moved by Bale, errr, Rhaegar's songs. When he finds her, they have some interchange and fell for each other (They might have done anything, even draw a face on a tree and get married by the Northener's rite. A bit hurried for my taste, but no idea, indeed). Consecuently, he declares before everybody crowning Lyanna, and here we link with the Wildling theory.

[finger]

:agree: Love everything you said, and ppl rarely talk about Mormont's raven even though it seems to be one of the more obvious pieces of evidence in the text, especially when you consider the fact that Mormont's raven is highly suspected by some to be Bloodraven.

Bloodraven is one of the big tricks. I think he's behind many things that happen.

I'm currently re-reading the chapter in Bran's sickbed, when BR (Bloodraven, not Bran, har) gets into Bran's mind, convincing Bran to "fly". (Some books after, we'll know that actually BR was recruiting Bran as a Greenseer). Then, it happens something I didn't understand at the first read: Bran seems to fly. I take that somehow BR had linked their minds and both warged a raven (?) to fly over WF. They cheered the weirdtree, and it cheered back, suggesting there was some other greenseer, or something..... We know but nothing about greenseer's powers, and I guess there's a lot hidden behind. We'll have to come back over it.

But this one is to Lyanna, and I don't want to mix things up.

[Ser Creighton]

The fact that the KINGSguard is at the ToJ is a pretty good indication. There's also the fact that Mormont's raven keeps calling Jon "King," which he would be if the Targs were still the ruling family.

I personally like this gem from Ned's first chapter:

Ned: “Kings are a rare sight in the north.”

Robert snorted. “More likely they were hiding under the snow. Snow, Ned!”

ETA: the fact that Lyanna is highly associated with crowns also speaks to this.

Also, my dear Fetch, 2 things:

1. Please read aGoT. It's really the only way to fully get R + L

2. This should have been asked in the R +L thread pinned to the top rather than its own thread

Mormonts Raven started using the word King after Mormont told Jon Aemons story and used the word King a few times. I have never been a big fan of the Raven saying Jon is King as it would also mean Jon is Corn.

Also Jon would not be King if the Targs still ruled. That would of meant the Targs won. So Rhaegar would be King followed by Aegon, followed by Vis and every other legit heir. If someone can produce a Septon of the 7, which is the religion practiced in the south and by the crown, then you have an argument. But the Kings guards was acting on orders from Rhaegar and Jon was most likely moved to Starfall for his own protection and they stayed to protect the very ill Lyanna as ordered. Moving him to Starfall via Wylla would of been the best way to hide his identity, and disassociating themselves from Jon would of protected him from Robert. Which is why Wylla and the Daynes lie about Jons mother being Wylla. The hid Jon.

Remember when Brandon was going to Marry Cat? It was going to be at Riverrun in a sept which is where Ned married her. Why? Because that is their religious faith, later she took part in the northern Custom in front of a tree. The Crown does not prey to trees and does not follow that religion which is why they cut the Wierwoods down and KL has no heart tree.

[Ygrain]

I'll also point out that Lyanna would have been in danger from both sides: Robert and the rebels, and Aerys.

Which is why she had to stay hidden in the tower, or else she might have become a hostage against both the rebels and Rhaegar.

[Ser Creighton]

There must be some precedent for divorce, or else what were Renly and the Tyrells planning to do with Cersei in order to make way for Margaery and Robert?

Even Cersei feared being set aside.

Absolved, and it's happened more than once in the books. Talked about it back on Sanka. Vows may be absolved, you just need the right person. Just like a King can legitimize a Bastard a marriage may be absolved by the high Septon. Not sure about the north, they may not practice it, not sure if a tree absolves anyone. Maybe a Liege Lord has the right. The head Measter dude can absolve a Measters vows. Not sure who can absolve the Night Watch vows. Probably the king or Queen, they take no part in the wars but are still part of the Kingdom. That's why Stannis as a claimed king can use the castles and sees it as his right to use them, he just can't order the watch to fight for him. It's a wierd relationship not sure how everything goes.

[Corvo Attano]

Rhaegar & Lyanna deserved to die. The result of their actions resulted in the deaths of Brandon, Rickard, Arthur Dayne, Gerold Hightower, Oswell Whent, Aerys, Lewlyn Martell, Jon Darry, Theo Wull, William Dustin, Ethan Glover, Martyn Cassel, Princess Rhaenys, Elia Martell, and thousands of soldiers from every part of the 7K, thousands of smallfolk in the riverlands & crownlands.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Ι believe that he was attracted to her but I don't think that he loved her. If you love someone you want him/her to be happy and safe.

[Ygrain]

Mormonts Raven started using the word King after Mormont told Jon Aemons story and used the word King a few times. I have never been a big fan of the Raven saying Jon is King as it would also mean Jon is Corn.

Also Jon would not be King if the Targs still ruled. That would of meant the Targs won. So Rhaegar would be King followed by Aegon, followed by Vis and every other legit heir. If someone can produce a Septon of the 7, which is the religion practiced in the south and by the crown, then you have an argument. But the Kings guards was acting on orders from Rhaegar and Jon was most likely moved to Starfall for his own protection and they stayed to protect the very ill Lyanna as ordered. Moving him to Starfall via Wylla would of been the best way to hide his identity, and disassociating themselves from Jon would of protected him from Robert. Which is why Wylla and the Daynes lie about Jons mother being Wylla. The hid Jon.

Rhaegar's orders cannot override the duty to guard the king, fullstop. It would be like following a captain's order while ignoring a standing order of highest priority from a general.

Remember when Brandon was going to Marry Cat? It was going to be at Riverrun in a sept which is where Ned married her. Why? Because that is their religious faith, later she took part in the northern Custom in front of a tree. The Crown does not prey to trees and does not follow that religion which is why they cut the Wierwoods down and KL has no heart tree.

Either provide a single textual quote or at least a hint that this ever happened, or stop claiming your fanfiction as facts.

If anything, Nightwatch accepts both religions as equally valid, even though it has its own septon, and when Samwell, raised in the faith of the Seven, decides to take his vows in front of a hearttree, no-one questions the validity of his oath.

[g.o.d]

Ι believe that he was attracted to her but I don't think that he loved her. If you love someone you want him/her to be happy and safe.

we know from books that he loved her. He put 3 KG to protect her. I'm not sure if she loved him, I think she did in the beginning. It's possible that her attitude changed toward him

[Jon's Queen Consort]

we know from books that he loved her. He put 3 KG to protect her. I'm not sure if she loved him, I think she did in the beginning. It's possible that her attitude changed toward him

He putted the 3KG to protect the third dragon head not her. If he wanted to protect her he wouldn't have putted in danger in the first place. So no I don't believe that he loved her

[Corvo Attano]

we know from books that he loved her. He put 3 KG to protect her. I'm not sure if she loved him, I think she did in the beginning. It's possible that her attitude changed toward him

If he truly loved her, he would never left her, espescially to go and cross swords/hammers with Robert.

[g.o.d]

He putted the 3KG to protect the third dragon head not her. If he wanted to protect her he wouldn't have putted in danger in the first place. So no I don't believe that he loved her

there's evidence(Dany, Barristan and that app) in books he loved her. He was probably obsessed with her, she wasn't typical highborn lady :-)