R+L=J v.48

[Batman]

The sheer academic level of some posts never fail to amaze me.

ETA All the awards to Ygrain's endless patience and dedication. Really.

Sorry, what is "this"? Rhaegar was loved by everyone in the story, except Robert.

"This" would be meant for a thread that said Rhaegar never loved Lyanna. How it ended up here, I will never know. Talk about problems with the site.

I suppose I should be annoyed at whatever glitch ruined my joke rather than someone questioning my "academic level".

[FrozenFire3]

"This" would be meant for a thread that said Rhaegar never loved Lyanna. How it ended up here, I will never know. Talk about problems with the site.

I suppose I should be annoyed at whatever glitch ruined my joke rather than someone questioning my "academic level".

... sed magis amica veritas.

Glitch or not glitch, it's still possible to joke or even criticize without resorting to insult. Unfortunately such an approach has become a trend on this forum lately. The 24/7 hatefest, the level of visceral distaste for some theories/characters is appalling and discouraging some people to keep on posting. We should also take into account half ot the members are not English mother tongue, and the use of certain derogatory terms can be perceived in a very different way. Verbal bombs are not dropped so lightly in some languages. It would be much easier to avoid offending sensibilities and enjoy the forum for what it is: a place for people who love Asoiaf with all its good, bad, grey, so-so, controversial characters. Because all of them have a precise narrative role and a special place in GRRM textual architecture. If we dislike so much a central character and/or the way the story is developing we can always stop reading. At the end of the day (and also at the beginning) it's GRRM's baby. NOT ours.

And now back to textual analysis...

Hopefully the fact that it was Rhaegar himself that gave the Tower it's name is an indication that this is not so.

Absolutely. This is not a little detail. This is a strong indication of the emotional background certain events took place in. What stirs up my curiosity is who knew of the naming and eventually told Ned...

[dragontamer]

Absolutely. This is not a little detail. This is a strong indication of the emotional background certain events took place in. What stirs up my curiosity is who knew of the naming and eventually told Ned...

I will seize this opportunity to point out once again that we shouldn’t be too eager to draw conclusions too fast or see hidden meanings behind everything. If indeed the ToJ was named by Rhaegar after he and Lyanna took up residence there who would have told Eddard?

But, what if, Rhaegar had already named the tower, prior to the elopement and rebellion and it was a well known fact that had nothing to do with Lyanna...

[J. Stargaryen]

I will seize this opportunity to point out once again that we shouldn’t be too eager to draw conclusions too fast or see hidden meanings behind everything. If indeed the ToJ was named by Rhaegar after he and Lyanna took up residence there who would have told Eddard?

But, what if, Rhaegar had already named the tower, prior to the elopement and rebellion and it was a well known fact that had nothing to do with Lyanna...

I disagree in general, and most definitely in this case. The name itself demands an explanation. There is so much hidden meaning in this series that it's foolish to ignore 'coincidences' that fit in with clue-laden theories. Tower of Joy makes perfect sense if R&L was a love affair instead of a kidnapping and rape.

[dragontamer]

I disagree in general, and most definitely in this case. The name itself demands an explanation. There is so much hidden meaning in this series that it's foolish to ignore 'coincidences' that fit in with clue-laden theories. Tower of Joy makes perfect sense if R&L was a love affair instead of a kidnapping and rape.

In thread n.47 there were several posters suggesting that Tyrions’s shadow was somehow an indication about Jon’s kingship despite the apparent (imo) fact that it was a Tyrion centric scene and despite the fact that Tyrion’s (again) shadow is mentioned a second time by Moqorro. If there is indeed here some clue/hint/foreshadowing or whatever is obviously about Tyrion.

That’s exactly what I meant in my previous post that some people tend to overanalyze the “hints” and hidden meanings in the books and I definitely insist on my view about this.

You are entitled to disagree but your response other than doing exactly this, disagreeing, offered no real argument against my previous statement. We simply don’t know when (before or after the elopement) the tower was named.

[Ygrain]

I will seize this opportunity to point out once again that we shouldn’t be too eager to draw conclusions too fast or see hidden meanings behind everything. If indeed the ToJ was named by Rhaegar after he and Lyanna took up residence there who would have told Eddard?

But, what if, Rhaegar had already named the tower, prior to the elopement and rebellion and it was a well known fact that had nothing to do with Lyanna...

I don't think it has been mentioned that Rhaegar had a secret hideout of that name prior the supposed kidnapping. And even if he did, taking a rape victim into a place called "Tower of Joy" would be incredibly cynical.

[dragontamer]

I don't think it has been mentioned that Rhaegar had a secret hideout of that name prior the supposed kidnapping. And even if he did, taking a rape victim into a place called "Tower of Joy" would be incredibly cynical.

who said it was secret?

[Wexfordred]

Surely the identity of where Lyanna was kept was a secret.

Who saved Varys after the sack? What did he offer to be spared?

Also there were possibly three babies around the same time. One born on dangonstone, one in the tower of joy and one in starfall. Considering Grrns happiness to switch babies is it possible that we are way off the scent as to which is which? Is it possible that Daenerys is Lyannas and Rhargars real child? And that Jon snow was collected by Ned from starfall? Perhaps Jon is Brendan child rather than Lyanna and needs attempts as keeping Daenerys alive in AGoT is due to this.

[Batman]

... sed magis amica veritas.

Glitch or not glitch, it's still possible to joke or even criticize without resorting to insult. Unfortunately such an approach has become a trend on this forum lately. The 24/7 hatefest, the level of visceral distaste for some theories/characters is appalling and discouraging some people to keep on posting. We should also take into account half ot the members are not English mother tongue, and the use of certain derogatory terms can be perceived in a very different way. Verbal bombs are not dropped so lightly in some languages. It would be much easier to avoid offending sensibilities and enjoy the forum for what it is: a place for people who love Asoiaf with all its good, bad, grey, so-so, controversial characters. Because all of them have a precise narrative role and a special place in GRRM textual architecture. If we dislike so much a central character and/or the way the story is developing we can always stop reading. At the end of the day (and also at the beginning) it's GRRM's baby. NOT ours.

And now back to textual analysis...

Am I to take it you dont believe this was not meant for this particular thread. I think the way it didnt really relate to anything in this thread would lend support to the misplacement.

My original comment was a throwaway remark directed at the idea he never loved Lyanna. If he didnt then he could have chosen another girl without tearing apart the realm and causing thouasands of deaths.

If you aim to avoid offending anyone you may as well not bother saying anything. I dont have a responsibility to you or anyone else. Disliking a character is every bit as acceptable as liking one. It is not ok to express this? This was not even what I was doing, I am just making a point.

[J. Stargaryen]

In thread n.47 there were several posters suggesting that Tyrions’s shadow was somehow an indication about Jon’s kingship despite the apparent (imo) fact that it was a Tyrion centric scene and despite the fact that Tyrion’s (again) shadow is mentioned a second time by Moqorro. If there is indeed here some clue/hint/foreshadowing or whatever is obviously about Tyrion.

I'm familiar with it, and it's an interesting connection. Your claim that the interpretation is wrong has yet to be demonstrated, so I don't really know what your point is.

That’s exactly what I meant in my previous post that some people tend to overanalyze the “hints” and hidden meanings in the books and I definitely insist on my view about this.

The series demands that we analyze things like this in great deal. It's one thing when a person fails to make the connection he or she hoped to, but it's another when there is a potentially legitimate connection and someone else comes along and claims that it's "weak" or "trying too hard" or "reading too much into it", etc., without disproving it.

Be as skeptical as you like, but understand that there is a difference between successfully rebutting a claim, and ignoring it because you disagree with it.

You are entitled to disagree but your response other than doing exactly this, disagreeing, offered no real argument against my previous statement. We simply don’t know when (before or after the elopement) the tower was named.

Two posts ago you said

I will seize this opportunity to point out once again that we shouldn’t be too eager to draw conclusions too fast or see hidden meanings behind everything.

to which I countered by pointing out that we have good reasons to try and "draw conclusions" and see a possible "hidden meaning" here; i.e., the name is ironic enough to draw attention to itself, and works as evidence in the already existing R&L love affair theory.

I think that the story is so saturated with clues that we ought to look for "hidden meanings, etc." all over the place, and see what we can make with them. Which is exactly the opposite of what you're saying.

[Ygrain]

who said it was secret?

Extrapolating from the fact that when the shit hit the fan with Brandon's raaargh action, Rhaegar couldn't be found. If people had heard about ToJ and had known where to look, he would have been found earlier.

Surely the identity of where Lyanna was kept was a secret.

Who saved Varys after the sack? What did he offer to be spared?

Also there were possibly three babies around the same time. One born on dangonstone, one in the tower of joy and one in starfall. Considering Grrns happiness to switch babies is it possible that we are way off the scent as to which is which? Is it possible that Daenerys is Lyannas and Rhargars real child? And that Jon snow was collected by Ned from starfall? Perhaps Jon is Brendan child rather than Lyanna and needs attempts as keeping Daenerys alive in AGoT is due to this.

Not really. Dany was conceived just prior the Sack of KL and born on Dragonstone 9 months later. Jon, per GRRM, was born 8-9 months before Dany, i.e. within a month since the Sack of KL at the end of the Rebellion. The Rebellion lasted for about a year, meaning Jon was conceived a couple of months into the Rebellion, when Brandon had already been dead.

Plus, if Jon was the child of Brandon and Ashara, there was no reason for Ned to take him away from his mother, as well as no reason to claim him for his own and be so tightlipped about the identity of his mother when the rumour of Ashara was freely circulating.

[dragontamer]

I'm familiar with it, and it's an interesting connection. Your claim that the interpretation is wrong has yet to be demonstrated, so I don't really know what your point is.

I have long ago presented my opinion on this theory and the reasons I challenge it. I have received some answers, some polite and some not so much, some well argued and some not so much. I don’t intend to further dispute the R+L=J theory itself until new information is provided via the author to reinforce or weaken it.

But, apart from the actual theory other related topics such as this, are hard to digest.

You fail to see the point behind my argument, I think, because you don’t want to. You find interesting a connection between the size of Tyrion’s shadow and Jon’s? Well of course Jon’s is going to be larger… what’s the interesting part about it? You want to make it about Jon when on another occasion the same “big shadow” reference is being made explicitly about Tyrion? That’s ok by me but don’t claim that I don’t have a point when saying that it’s exaggerating.

The series demands that we analyze things like this in great deal. It's one thing when a person fails to make the connection he or she hoped to, but it's another when there is a potentially legitimate connection and someone else comes along and claims that it's "weak" or "trying too hard" or "reading too much into it", etc., without disproving it.

Be as skeptical as you like, but understand that there is a difference between successfully rebutting a claim, and ignoring it because you disagree with it.

I am not ignoring anything. Despite the fact that I disagree with the theory I have never said anything about the crow calling Jon a king or other arguments such as this but I believe the line has to be drawn at some point.

The correct line of reasoning, imo is, first to investigate and find the clues and then form the theory based on these clues, and not take an already formed theory and try to backtrack finding hints and clues to support it.

Two posts ago you said to which I countered by pointing out that we have good reasons to try and "draw conclusions" and see a possible "hidden meaning" here; i.e., the name is ironic enough to draw attention to itself, and works as evidence in the already existing R&L love affair theory.

I think that the story is so saturated with clues that we ought to look for "hidden meanings, etc." all over the place, and see what we can make with them. Which is exactly the opposite of what you're saying.

I believe there are enough hints, as you said, no need to dig for more. Again, I am not saying that I know Rhaegar named the tower prior to the elopement simply that the text provides no information to be certain of one or the other. I don’t understand why you dispute that.

[Buried Treasure]

We capitalise Tower of Joy but Ned did not. That suggests that Rhaegar did not formally name it, so much as he spoke of it as a joyful place. Still leaves the question of who told Ned what Rhaegar thought of the tower, and it would seem to me the best guesses are either Ashara when she was telling him where to find Lyanna, or Lyanna when she was saying her final words.

Surely the identity of where Lyanna was kept was a secret.

Who saved Varys after the sack? What did he offer to be spared?

Also there were possibly three babies around the same time. One born on dangonstone, one in the tower of joy and one in starfall. Considering Grrns happiness to switch babies is it possible that we are way off the scent as to which is which? Is it possible that Daenerys is Lyannas and Rhargars real child? And that Jon snow was collected by Ned from starfall? Perhaps Jon is Brendan child rather than Lyanna and needs attempts as keeping Daenerys alive in AGoT is due to this.

Varys got the same deal as everybody else in the seven kingdoms, kneel to Robert and you will be spared.

Dany was conceived after the Trident and born almost nine months after the rest of the war had ended. It is hard to swap a newborn for a babe almost a year older, and besides there never was an opportunity as Darry fled with her and Viserys into exile; she has never been to the Westerosi mainland and cannot have been swapped with a child in Dorne.

Brandon cannot be Jon's father, the war lasted around a year and Brandon was killed before it started whilst Jon was born at the tail end of it. If Brandon and Ashara did have a dalliance then it may have have been during the Harrenhal tourney, that is when the most hints for Ashara being with someone are. Harrenhal was yet another year earlier than the start of the war, so once again any babes born as a result of the tourney would be too old to convincingly be swapped with a child born late in the war.

If you are dead set in believing there was a baby swap, there is another woman that gave birth a few months before the war; Elia. That means she may have conceived around the time of Harrenhal (there is a window of uncertainty of a few months). I am myself very partial to the idea that Elia and Ashara swapped children at birth, but always with the caveat that it is speculative and it's main strength as a theory is that we have so few undisputed facts it is a hard theory to disprove.

[FittleLinger]

I believe there are enough hints, as you said, no need to dig for more. Again, I am not saying that I know Rhaegar named the tower prior to the elopement simply that the text provides no information to be certain of one or the other. I don’t understand why you dispute that.

Ok, we do not know when it happened for certain but a good question stirs out of this. Why would the crown prince suddenly decide to name an old, small, unnamed tower in Dorne?

[MissingNo]

Is there a word/page count for the amount of discussion on all versions of this thread? Is it possible it exceeds the word counts of one of the books itself? If so that is mind blowing :eek:

[Wexfordred]

We capitalise Tower of Joy but Ned did not. That suggests that Rhaegar did not formally name it, so much as he spoke of it as a joyful place. Still leaves the question of who told Ned what Rhaegar thought of the tower, and it would seem to me the best guesses are either Ashara when she was telling him where to find Lyanna, or Lyanna when she was saying her final words.

Varys got the same deal as everybody else in the seven kingdoms, kneel to Robert and you will be spared.

Dany was conceived after the Trident and born almost nine months after the rest of the war had ended. It is hard to swap a newborn for a babe almost a year older, and besides there never was an opportunity as Darry fled with her and Viserys into exile; she has never been to the Westerosi mainland and cannot have been swapped with a child in Dorne.

Brandon cannot be Jon's father, the war lasted around a year and Brandon was killed before it started whilst Jon was born at the tail end of it. If Brandon and Ashara did have a dalliance then it may have have been during the Harrenhal tourney, that is when the most hints for Ashara being with someone are. Harrenhal was yet another year earlier than the start of the war, so once again any babes born as a result of the tourney would be too old to convincingly be swapped with a child born late in the war.

If you are dead set in believing there was a baby swap, there is another woman that gave birth a few months before the war; Elia. That means she may have conceived around the time of Harrenhal (there is a window of uncertainty of a few months). I am myself very partial to the idea that Elia and Ashara swapped children at birth, but always with the caveat that it is speculative and it's main strength as a theory is that we have so few undisputed facts it is a hard theory to disprove.

Fair dues. However my point stands that with the amount of possibilities it's hard to claim much. How old was Jon when Ned brought him home to winter fell? Wasn't the claim that the child was conceived before the war and before Ned was promised to cat?

My thoughts about Daenerys come from the three siblings being the three heads of the dragon. The swap could have happened at any time doesnt have to have Happened on Dorne or on dragonstone. Of course we would still be short a sibling.

Stuck in work now but will go through a little later.

[J. Stargaryen]

I have long ago presented my opinion on this theory and the reasons I challenge it. I have received some answers, some polite and some not so much, some well argued and some not so much. I don’t intend to further dispute the R+L=J theory itself until new information is provided via the author to reinforce or weaken it.

But, apart from the actual theory other related topics such as this, are hard to digest.

Why?

You fail to see the point behind my argument, I think, because you don’t want to. You find interesting a connection between the size of Tyrion’s shadow and Jon’s? Well of course Jon’s is going to be larger… what’s the interesting part about it? You want to make it about Jon when on another occasion the same “big shadow” reference is being made explicitly about Tyrion? That’s ok by me but don’t claim that I don’t have a point when saying that it’s exaggerating.

I've already addressed the specific part of you post that I disagree with, and explained why.

I am not ignoring anything. Despite the fact that I disagree with the theory I have never said anything about the crow calling Jon a king or other arguments such as this but I believe the line has to be drawn at some point.

Okay, I appoint myself to this job. Sound fair?

The correct line of reasoning, imo is, first to investigate and find the clues and then form the theory based on these clues, and not take an already formed theory and try to backtrack finding hints and clues to support it.

Sure, all theories begin somewhere. But once they come into being, of course you try to backtrack finding hints and clues to support it. That's called research.

I believe there are enough hints, as you said, no need to dig for more. Again, I am not saying that I know Rhaegar named the tower prior to the elopement simply that the text provides no information to be certain of one or the other. I don’t understand why you dispute that.

Because I'm not. :)

[finger]

I disagree in general, and most definitely in this case. The name itself demands an explanation. There is so much hidden meaning in this series that it's foolish to ignore 'coincidences' that fit in with clue-laden theories. Tower of Joy makes perfect sense if R&L was a love affair instead of a kidnapping and rape.

:agree: This is a note of the series. Of course the story keeps you hanging, and the characters are so finely defined that some people treat them as members of their own family. But it is also a mind game. The author plays with the reader page after page, like in a long cyvasse game. You may accept the challenge, or not.

Besides, were it not, this forum wouldn't be.

I also agree it was not a kidnape, they unconsciously married the Wildling way.

Martin's irony is one of a kind.

[finger]

That’s exactly what I meant in my previous post that some people tend to overanalyze the “hints” and hidden meanings in the books and I definitely insist on my view about this.

I don't know if you're re-read much. I'm reading it from the start, and I'm pretty sure I'am passing by important hints even in the second reading. I'm amazed how anything can be taken in more than one sense.

It's a game you accept to play (as Lyanna did)

[Ygrain]

Fair dues. However my point stands that with the amount of possibilities it's hard to claim much. How old was Jon when Ned brought him home to winter fell? Wasn't the claim that the child was conceived before the war and before Ned was promised to cat?

My thoughts about Daenerys come from the three siblings being the three heads of the dragon. The swap could have happened at any time doesnt have to have Happened on Dorne or on dragonstone. Of course we would still be short a sibling.

Stuck in work now but will go through a little later.

He was on the breast and in swaddling clothes, and had to look convincingly of an age or younger to Catelyn, who had shortly arrived with Robb on her breast, and to any other woman who has ever dealt with babies. No way you confuse a couple of months old child with a child nine months older. It's not just a matter of size but of skills and development.

Plus, Ned specifically claims that he conceived Jon after he married Catelyn.