R+L=J v.48

[g.o.d]

I've been thinking about one thing regarding this theory. If this is true what impact will it have on Jon? He spent entire life thinking of Ned as his father and now he'll find out that his father was valyrian crown prince who had been portrayred as a rapist who kidnapped his mother. Even if he learns that they were in love, married and he's not a bastard after all.He might by happy to find out who his real mother was but I'm not so sure about Rhaegar. Being raised as Ned's son had a huge influence on him and now he learns that he wasn't his father. what do you think?

[Ser Creighton]

Naturally, Dr. Pepper is right. The heart tree at Riverrun is a weirwood. This is from Cat's last chapter in AGoT when she's at Riverrun -- right before Robb is crowned King in the North.

Also, Brienne sees a skinny weirwood growing wild near the Whispers. Brienne IV.

Not every weirwood in the south is gone. The vast majority, yes, but some survive in Godswoods and in abandoned wild places.

ETA: Just saw that Dr. P has already defended herself and posted the quote from Cat's POV. :ninja:

Yeah I just saw this and checked chapter 71, forgot about that scene. It was a good catch. Still doesn't change the debate about legal marriages. And it does contradict what Cat said in chapter 2 of thrones.

Why would she be defending herself? What exactly did I say that was threatening? Please fill me in.

[Dr. Pepper]

No they were not weirwoods, she states exactly what kind f trees they were and I even quoted her as saying what happened to the weirwoods....Most holds have a godswood, only in the North do you find the Weirwoods that are heart trees. They have Weiwoods at the Godseye and Harrebhal which sits at the top of the Godseye.

I regret having corrected you earlier. I only did because I had made the mistake recently and was thankful to be corrected.

A couple of us have quoted where Cat or Brienne specifically mention the weirwood at Riverrun.

She found Robb beneath the green canopy of leaves, surrounded by tall redwoods and great old elms, kneeling before the heart tree, a slender weirwood with a face more sad than fierce.

Also, Brienne sees a skinny weirwood growing wild near the Whispers. Brienne IV.

Soldier pines were everywhere, drawn up in solemn ranks. In their midst was a pale stranger; a slender young weirwood with a trunk as white as a cloistered maid. Dark red leaves sprouted from its reaching branches.

Not every weirwood in the south is gone. The vast majority, yes, but some survive in Godswoods and in abandoned wild places.

Davos also describes the heart tree weirwood at Storm's End

...and later he had burned the godswood at Storm’s End as well, even the heart tree, a huge white weirwood with a solemn face.

[Ser Creighton]

On the issue of GRRMS statement regarding polygamy, I actually took that as a statement on Targaryen omnipotency, and that while you can do whatever you want when you have dragons, (not necessarily a positive), without them you may not be able to get away with as much.

That's a good point, and it was a quote from 2001 and we have not really been given any changes on the Polygamy front 12 years later. Politically speaking it is a nightmare, who is the true heir, who is the favorite wife. We have seen that be a problem. It's not easy to pull off, having Dragons makes it a lot easier, as that is a heck of a lot in the power cache department. Polygamy can cause lots of problems, and while it may be legal for the Targs it is all going to come down to what the kings says. He may think he can get away with it, he may not.

Let me ask you something, why would Rheager who is not the King think he could get away with it? The Mad king thought he could get away with a lot but he was crazy. While some feel just being the king is enough the evidence suggests you push the wrong person to hard and it does not matter who you are. And if Aerys was pro Polygamy why not take a second wife? His first wife did not love him, and stayed away from him.

Now why would Rhaegar think he could get away with taking or leaving with Lyanna, and lets say also taking her as his second wife? Just cause he is the prince? I put up a post from with quotes about marriage and laws in Westeros. Most of the evidence points to the head of house having the say in who you get to marry, and in disputes the King holds courts to also here these matters and decide on them.

Rhaegar had an arranged marriage to Elia by his father.

Aerys had his marriage Arranged by Aegon v.

Aegon V children he let marry for love. But he let them do it, he gave his blessing, and he had to do that.

Brandon Stark, had his marriage arranged

Cat Tully, Marriage arranged

Lyanna had a marriage arranged

Ned Starks marriage was arranged by Jon Arryn who he was a Ward of at the time.

Robb Stark was a king/Lord and could pick his wife

Joffery had his marriage arranged

Sansa had her marriage arranged

Tyrion got married to Tysha but it was annulled by his father who did not arrange it

The list goes on and on.

Rickard never said Lyanna could marry Rhaegar and as far as I know Aerys never gave his blessing to Rhaegar. So how could the marriage even be legal? And lets say Aerys did give his blessing, why is Rheagar hiding Lyanna from him? It's Aerys and Rickards right to say who their kids marry. Now if Aerys did say it was ok, why is Rhaegar hiding Lyanna from him? He didn't hide Elia or his kids from him? Why even go into hiding if they have a legal marriage recognized by the king? It's not like they went to Dragonstone or Starfall or many other Targaryen or allied safe places. They went to a abandoned watch tower in the mountains of Dorne with next to no protection. They were not just hiding from Robert, they could have gone to a much safer place than that. You know the KG are elite, but 3 elite knights are going to get steam rolled by 20 decent men at arms. 3 Men a small tower that two men managed to rip down a pregnant girl, no real medical attention like a Measter.

Why hide like that? It's not just Robert, when Rhaegar was called he went, and he did not send any help back to Lyanna. Nor did he take Lyanna with him or have her moved someplace safer. Rhaegar seems to be hiding from both. So I doubt the marriage can be all that legal without the say of the parents, and if the King is against it, that's pretty much all she wrote. And why would they think they could get away with any of this to begin with. The plan was to get married and live in an old watch tower in Dorne with a couple of KG and hope they never get found? Why would they think they could get married if the parents did not ok it or just run off together. I mean people do stupid things, but neither of these characters seemed that kind of brain dead.

[Ser Creighton]

I regret having corrected you earlier. I only did because I had made the mistake recently and was thankful to be corrected.

A couple of us have quoted where Cat or Brienne specifically mention the weirwood at Riverrun.

Davos also describes the heart tree weirwood at Storm's End

...and later he had burned the godswood at Storm’s End as well, even the heart tree, a huge white weirwood with a solemn face.

Why regret the correction. You were right and now I know. Learning is always a good thing. I thought the quote was a great help. I should of thanked you, and it was actually rude that I didn't. I don't mind being wrong, I just like to know what I am wrong about in specific way so I know exactly how not to make that mistake again. Anyone can say someone is wrong, and that's not really a help, but when you show someone why they are wrong. That's actually just being helpful.

So thanks for the quotes, it is a big help, and it makes sense and now I know better.

[FrozenFire3]

I'm almost sure this has been posted already considering how many of these there are, but just in case, this has been on my mind recently:

Patchface, and in the show Shireen sings

"Under the sea the snow falls up"

I can't help but see a connection to Jon there. Under the sea for Patchface generally relates to death or something done in secret. All the other kings fall from power, but Jon who is a Snow may be the secret child of Rhaegar and heir to the throne, and through death and resurrection might become Azor Ahai reborn, forsake the Night's Watch being that his watch "ended" with his death, and come into power, thus falling up in terms of society. Just a thought I had.

I agree with Apple Martini. Very good catch and a powerful foreshadowing. The oxymoron 'falls up' contains both the antithetical concepts of falling/rising and - metaphorically - death/rebirth.

I never underestimate the paranomastic use of the word 'snow' in the Asoiafverse. Not in the books nor in the show.

Cogman confirmed that he has recently visited George at his home in Santa Fe for a few days to talk about GoT’s future and pick his brain about where all the storylines and characters are headed (source: http://winteriscoming.net/2013/04/ask-a-got-writer-bryan-cogman-on-the-writing-process-robb-and-talisa-and-renlys-peach/). So it's only natural to get slightly suspicious when puns such as the 'snow in Dorne' or 'the snow falls up' are so casually dropped ;)

[The guy from the Vale]

That's a good point, and it was a quote from 2001 and we have not really been given any changes on the Polygamy front 12 years later. Politically speaking it is a nightmare, who is the true heir, who is the favorite wife. We have seen that be a problem. It's not easy to pull off, having Dragons makes it a lot easier, as that is a heck of a lot in the power cache department. Polygamy can cause lots of problems, and while it may be legal for the Targs it is all going to come down to what the kings says. He may think he can get away with it, he may not.

Let me ask you something, why would Rheager who is not the King think he could get away with it? The Mad king thought he could get away with a lot but he was crazy. While some feel just being the king is enough the evidence suggests you push the wrong person to hard and it does not matter who you are. And if Aerys was pro Polygamy why not take a second wife? His first wife did not love him, and stayed away from him.

Now why would Rhaegar think he could get away with taking or leaving with Lyanna, and lets say also taking her as his second wife? Just cause he is the prince? I put up a post from with quotes about marriage and laws in Westeros. Most of the evidence points to the head of house having the say in who you get to marry, and in disputes the King holds courts to also here these matters and decide on them.

Rhaegar had an arranged marriage to Elia by his father.

Aerys had his marriage Arranged by Aegon v.

Aegon V children he let marry for love. But he let them do it, he gave his blessing, and he had to do that.

Brandon Stark, had his marriage arranged

Cat Tully, Marriage arranged

Lyanna had a marriage arranged

Ned Starks marriage was arranged by Jon Arryn who he was a Ward of at the time.

Robb Stark was a king/Lord and could pick his wife

Joffery had his marriage arranged

Sansa had her marriage arranged

Tyrion got married to Tysha but it was annulled by his father who did not arrange it

The list goes on and on.

Rickard never said Lyanna could marry Rhaegar and as far as I know Aerys never gave his blessing to Rhaegar. So how could the marriage even be legal? And lets say Aerys did give his blessing, why is Rheagar hiding Lyanna from him? It's Aerys and Rickards right to say who their kids marry. Now if Aerys did say it was ok, why is Rhaegar hiding Lyanna from him? He didn't hide Elia or his kids from him? Why even go into hiding if they have a legal marriage recognized by the king? It's not like they went to Dragonstone or Starfall or many other Targaryen or allied safe places. They went to a abandoned watch tower in the mountains of Dorne with next to no protection. They were not just hiding from Robert, they could have gone to a much safer place than that. You know the KG are elite, but 3 elite knights are going to get steam rolled by 20 decent men at arms. 3 Men a small tower that two men managed to rip down a pregnant girl, no real medical attention like a Measter.

Why hide like that? It's not just Robert, when Rhaegar was called he went, and he did not send any help back to Lyanna. Nor did he take Lyanna with him or have her moved someplace safer. Rhaegar seems to be hiding from both. So I doubt the marriage can be all that legal without the say of the parents, and if the King is against it, that's pretty much all she wrote. And why would they think they could get away with any of this to begin with. The plan was to get married and live in an old watch tower in Dorne with a couple of KG and hope they never get found? Why would they think they could get married if the parents did not ok it or just run off together. I mean people do stupid things, but neither of these characters seemed that kind of brain dead.

Where does it say that in the books? There's been a crackpot developed in this series of threads that Rickard and Rhaegar might have been allies, not opponents.

[Ygrain]

That's a good point, and it was a quote from 2001 and we have not really been given any changes on the Polygamy front 12 years later. Politically speaking it is a nightmare, who is the true heir, who is the favorite wife. We have seen that be a problem. It's not easy to pull off, having Dragons makes it a lot easier, as that is a heck of a lot in the power cache department. Polygamy can cause lots of problems, and while it may be legal for the Targs it is all going to come down to what the kings says. He may think he can get away with it, he may not.

Let me ask you something, why would Rheager who is not the King think he could get away with it? The Mad king thought he could get away with a lot but he was crazy. While some feel just being the king is enough the evidence suggests you push the wrong person to hard and it does not matter who you are. And if Aerys was pro Polygamy why not take a second wife? His first wife did not love him, and stayed away from him.

Now why would Rhaegar think he could get away with taking or leaving with Lyanna, and lets say also taking her as his second wife? Just cause he is the prince? I put up a post from with quotes about marriage and laws in Westeros. Most of the evidence points to the head of house having the say in who you get to marry, and in disputes the King holds courts to also here these matters and decide on them.

Rhaegar had an arranged marriage to Elia by his father.

Aerys had his marriage Arranged by Aegon v.

Aegon V children he let marry for love. But he let them do it, he gave his blessing, and he had to do that.

Brandon Stark, had his marriage arranged

Cat Tully, Marriage arranged

Lyanna had a marriage arranged

Ned Starks marriage was arranged by Jon Arryn who he was a Ward of at the time.

Robb Stark was a king/Lord and could pick his wife

Joffery had his marriage arranged

Sansa had her marriage arranged

Tyrion got married to Tysha but it was annulled by his father who did not arrange it

The list goes on and on.

Rickard never said Lyanna could marry Rhaegar and as far as I know Aerys never gave his blessing to Rhaegar. So how could the marriage even be legal? And lets say Aerys did give his blessing, why is Rheagar hiding Lyanna from him? It's Aerys and Rickards right to say who their kids marry. Now if Aerys did say it was ok, why is Rhaegar hiding Lyanna from him? He didn't hide Elia or his kids from him? Why even go into hiding if they have a legal marriage recognized by the king? It's not like they went to Dragonstone or Starfall or many other Targaryen or allied safe places. They went to a abandoned watch tower in the mountains of Dorne with next to no protection. They were not just hiding from Robert, they could have gone to a much safer place than that. You know the KG are elite, but 3 elite knights are going to get steam rolled by 20 decent men at arms. 3 Men a small tower that two men managed to rip down a pregnant girl, no real medical attention like a Measter.

Why hide like that? It's not just Robert, when Rhaegar was called he went, and he did not send any help back to Lyanna. Nor did he take Lyanna with him or have her moved someplace safer. Rhaegar seems to be hiding from both. So I doubt the marriage can be all that legal without the say of the parents, and if the King is against it, that's pretty much all she wrote. And why would they think they could get away with any of this to begin with. The plan was to get married and live in an old watch tower in Dorne with a couple of KG and hope they never get found? Why would they think they could get married if the parents did not ok it or just run off together. I mean people do stupid things, but neither of these characters seemed that kind of brain dead.

There is no support that the liege's lack of consent automatically invalidates the marriage, but that they might take action to make it invalid. By your logic, Sansa's marriage to Tyrion would have been invalid, because Robb as the head of House Stark never gave his consent.

What does matter, though, is the consent of the king as the highest authority of law in Westeros. He can definitely order or forbid a marriage; we do not know if he can cancel it because we are not given any precedent. In case he can indeed cancel a marriage, it is easier to cancel a marriage which is without offspring yet than marriage when the wife is pregnant or the child is already born. Either way, to take any action, Aerys would first have to find out that some marriage took place. - While this was most probably the initial reason why Rhaegar and Lyanna eloped and went into hiding, once the Rebellion broke out, entirely another factor entered the play, and that is Lyanna's value as a hostage against Ned and Robert, as well as against Rhaegar himself to keep him in check (remember that Aerys had long been paranoid about him), hence the need for absolute secrecy.

[Alia of the knife]

That's a good point, and it was a quote from 2001 and we have not really been given any changes on the Polygamy front 12 years later. Politically speaking it is a nightmare, who is the true heir, who is the favorite wife. We have seen that be a problem. It's not easy to pull off, having Dragons makes it a lot easier, as that is a heck of a lot in the power cache department. Polygamy can cause lots of problems, and while it may be legal for the Targs it is all going to come down to what the kings says. He may think he can get away with it, he may not.

Let me ask you something, why would Rheager who is not the King think he could get away with it? The Mad king thought he could get away with a lot but he was crazy. While some feel just being the king is enough the evidence suggests you push the wrong person to hard and it does not matter who you are. And if Aerys was pro Polygamy why not take a second wife? His first wife did not love him, and stayed away from him.

Now why would Rhaegar think he could get away with taking or leaving with Lyanna, and lets say also taking her as his second wife? Just cause he is the prince? I put up a post from with quotes about marriage and laws in Westeros. Most of the evidence points to the head of house having the say in who you get to marry, and in disputes the King holds courts to also here these matters and decide on them.

Rhaegar had an arranged marriage to Elia by his father.

Aerys had his marriage Arranged by Aegon v.

Aegon V children he let marry for love. But he let them do it, he gave his blessing, and he had to do that.

Brandon Stark, had his marriage arranged

Cat Tully, Marriage arranged

Lyanna had a marriage arranged

Ned Starks marriage was arranged by Jon Arryn who he was a Ward of at the time.

Robb Stark was a king/Lord and could pick his wife

Joffery had his marriage arranged

Sansa had her marriage arranged

Tyrion got married to Tysha but it was annulled by his father who did not arrange it

The list goes on and on.

Rickard never said Lyanna could marry Rhaegar and as far as I know Aerys never gave his blessing to Rhaegar. So how could the marriage even be legal? And lets say Aerys did give his blessing, why is Rheagar hiding Lyanna from him? It's Aerys and Rickards right to say who their kids marry. Now if Aerys did say it was ok, why is Rhaegar hiding Lyanna from him? He didn't hide Elia or his kids from him? Why even go into hiding if they have a legal marriage recognized by the king? It's not like they went to Dragonstone or Starfall or many other Targaryen or allied safe places. They went to a abandoned watch tower in the mountains of Dorne with next to no protection. They were not just hiding from Robert, they could have gone to a much safer place than that. You know the KG are elite, but 3 elite knights are going to get steam rolled by 20 decent men at arms. 3 Men a small tower that two men managed to rip down a pregnant girl, no real medical attention like a Measter.

Why hide like that? It's not just Robert, when Rhaegar was called he went, and he did not send any help back to Lyanna. Nor did he take Lyanna with him or have her moved someplace safer. Rhaegar seems to be hiding from both. So I doubt the marriage can be all that legal without the say of the parents, and if the King is against it, that's pretty much all she wrote. And why would they think they could get away with any of this to begin with. The plan was to get married and live in an old watch tower in Dorne with a couple of KG and hope they never get found? Why would they think they could get married if the parents did not ok it or just run off together. I mean people do stupid things, but neither of these characters seemed that kind of brain dead.

I've wondered about the Rhaegar vs. Aerys dichotomy as well, and the fact that given all Aerys behaviors and loveless marriage, he didn't see fit to engage in, or reintstate such a tradition, and quite right, he was actually King as opposed to Rhaegar no matter what the theories are at the moment.

However, my position is that he did marry Lyanna, but just didn't plan to stay married to Elia.

In the series "Vikings," you see an almost similar scenario with Ragnor Lothbrok needing more sons, (according to prophesy), so he puts aside his wife Lagertha, and she had already given him at least one heir, so I think that Martin has plenty of historical references to draw from.

You also see Kevan Lannister referencing the aspect of more sons being important to Rhaegar, and if he'd married Cersei, she could have given him all the sons he wanted.

I have my own "crackpot," (which is not to be confused with textual evidence because there isn't any), that there is more of a back-story with Elias potential machinations that may certainly have given Rhaegar a reason to set her aside just beyond infertility.

[Budj]

Suppose the baby switch did happen and Elia had the stillborn? Rhaegar would have needed to remarry at that point anyways...

[LadyMary]

That's a good point, and it was a quote from 2001 and we have not really been given any changes on the Polygamy front 12 years later. Politically speaking it is a nightmare, who is the true heir, who is the favorite wife. We have seen that be a problem. It's not easy to pull off, having Dragons makes it a lot easier, as that is a heck of a lot in the power cache department. Polygamy can cause lots of problems, and while it may be legal for the Targs it is all going to come down to what the kings says. He may think he can get away with it, he may not.

Let me ask you something, why would Rheager who is not the King think he could get away with it? The Mad king thought he could get away with a lot but he was crazy. While some feel just being the king is enough the evidence suggests you push the wrong person to hard and it does not matter who you are. And if Aerys was pro Polygamy why not take a second wife? His first wife did not love him, and stayed away from him.

Apparently, two of the Kings Guard accompanied Rhaegar when he abducted Lyanna, so whatever Aerys knew or didn't, they were taking orders from Rhaegar. We don't know yet. There is speculation that Rhaegar had the loyalty of some of the Kings Guard over his own father, and they were his personal friends as well. We just don't know anything more than that at this point.

Now why would Rhaegar think he could get away with taking or leaving with Lyanna, and lets say also taking her as his second wife? Just cause he is the prince? I put up a post from with quotes about marriage and laws in Westeros. Most of the evidence points to the head of house having the say in who you get to marry, and in disputes the King holds courts to also here these matters and decide on them.

Rhaegar had an arranged marriage to Elia by his father.

Aerys had his marriage Arranged by Aegon v.

Aegon V children he let marry for love. But he let them do it, he gave his blessing, and he had to do that.

Brandon Stark, had his marriage arranged

Cat Tully, Marriage arranged

Lyanna had a marriage arranged

Ned Starks marriage was arranged by Jon Arryn who he was a Ward of at the time.

Robb Stark was a king/Lord and could pick his wife

Joffery had his marriage arranged

Sansa had her marriage arranged

Tyrion got married to Tysha but it was annulled by his father who did not arrange it

The list goes on and on.

A couple of things bolded above.

You're right that most noble marriages in Westeros are arranged. However, Ned did not need Jon Arryn to arrange his marriage to Catelyn. He was already the Lord of Winterfell by then and made the choice to fulfill the promise his father made to Hoster Tully, by marrying Catelyn in his brother's place. Arryn helped to negotiate Hoster Tully's involvement in Robert's Rebellion and as part of the deal, agreed to marry Lysa. Both of them were able to make the arrangements for themselves... they were still arranged marriages, but Ned was not passive in the arrangement.

As for Robb, his marriage was arranged as well - by himself. He had the right to refuse Lord Frey's offer and would have been denied access to the bridge he needed to cross, but he chose to accept the marriage arrangement. He then later broke his promise to marry a Frey daughter in order to marry the woman he loved... with disastrous consequences afterwards.

Rickard never said Lyanna could marry Rhaegar and as far as I know Aerys never gave his blessing to Rhaegar. So how could the marriage even be legal? And lets say Aerys did give his blessing, why is Rheagar hiding Lyanna from him? It's Aerys and Rickards right to say who their kids marry. Now if Aerys did say it was ok, why is Rhaegar hiding Lyanna from him? He didn't hide Elia or his kids from him? Why even go into hiding if they have a legal marriage recognized by the king? It's not like they went to Dragonstone or Starfall or many other Targaryen or allied safe places. They went to a abandoned watch tower in the mountains of Dorne with next to no protection. They were not just hiding from Robert, they could have gone to a much safer place than that. You know the KG are elite, but 3 elite knights are going to get steam rolled by 20 decent men at arms. 3 Men a small tower that two men managed to rip down a pregnant girl, no real medical attention like a Measter.

Why hide like that? It's not just Robert, when Rhaegar was called he went, and he did not send any help back to Lyanna. Nor did he take Lyanna with him or have her moved someplace safer. Rhaegar seems to be hiding from both. So I doubt the marriage can be all that legal without the say of the parents, and if the King is against it, that's pretty much all she wrote. And why would they think they could get away with any of this to begin with. The plan was to get married and live in an old watch tower in Dorne with a couple of KG and hope they never get found? Why would they think they could get married if the parents did not ok it or just run off together. I mean people do stupid things, but neither of these characters seemed that kind of brain dead.

We can only assume things based on facts not in evidence. Rickard promised Lyanna to Robert and Rhaegar was married to someone else. It's reasonable to assume that Rickard would not have agreed to give his only daughter to be a second wife to Rhaegar, and Brandon's actions after finding out about the abduction suggest they did not. That alone would make safeguarding Lyanna in a secret place a necessity. Whether Aerys knew or not, it was still a major scandal to steal the daughter of a High Lord who was betrothed to someone else, and would make Lyanna's stay at Court very uncomfortable. If Rhaegar loved her, as it seems he did, he would want to keep her somewhere safe from prying eyes, and perhaps a place where Varys didn't have spies.

Second, we can speculate that Rhaegar was aware that his father was dangerously paranoid and would have been unpredictable if Lyanna was in his sites. We know that Aerys refused to allow Elia and her children to leave Kings Landing for fear that Dorne would abandon him (and maybe as a threat to Rhaegar as well), and who's to say that Rhaegar tried but could not dissuade his father from that course before he went off to the Trident? Jaime says that Rhaegar left it to him to protect his wife and children, and his failure still haunts him, so it's reasonable to speculate that Rhaegar could not have changed his father's mind on that.

[finger]

On the App.:

Listing Castle Black as the place of Jons "death" is not necessarily incorrect if we think in the abstract in that the boy dies, and what he is in essence is reborn- the Man, and the dragon is awakened.

And, the same could be said for Aegon the character.

Since Martin never confirmed Aegons death, only Rhaenys, then whoever "Aegon" is, is real, even if he's fake.

On the validity and credibility of the App., I'm just not sure why Martin would tolerate it if it was that contradictory, or misleading. I know he has only so much control on the series, but on all else, I would think he'd be cautious with his product and his Brand.

Or he might chose to remain in Castle Black as LC of the NW, so that we can suppose he'll die there in due time, even though we don't see it.

Eta: many options are open, but I favour that they "killed the boy". Jon boy is dead, brace yourselves for Lord Snow.

My own crackpot: as stated by Martin, the war of the roses finished with the Tudor in the throne, who were not Lancasters, but a new dinasty. Will Jon inaugurate the Snows?

[FittleLinger]

It's just that the cliffhanger's point is that Martin is trying to lead us to believe he's dead. For example, if we hadn't seen Davos in White Harbor but only heard about his death like Cersei (?) was reported, he would also have a place of death, untill later we learn he's not actually dead.

[Moët]

Sir Creighton - I don't understand where you are getting that "the law" states that a marriage is only legal if permission has been given. I don't remember anywhere in the text that supports this theory, if there is, could you please provide a link or a quote?

Just because a parent hasn't given permission for their offspring to marry, doesn't make a marriage invalid in any culture ever. Romeo and Juliet eloped, and did so without anyone's permission, still their marriage was legal.

Sure, at one time the reinging monarch could dissolve a marriage they disappoved of, if two people of high rank married, but the marriage was still legal until that happened.

The reason there are civil laws about it today has to do with the division of community property if there is divorce, or death and subsequent benefits. Arranged marriages also had everything to do with dowry and property. However, there doesn't seem to be any civil marriage laws or lawyers in Westeros. (Isn't that interesting...... hmmm - come to think of it, where are the lawyers?)

Peasants marry all the time, with no permission from a parent.

If your parents are dead, are you not ever allowed to marry because no permission can be given?

If Rhaegar married Lyanna, it was legal, irregardless of permission from any parent. Sure, there was no dowry, but Cordelia had no dowry and the King of France still married her after Lear disowned her.

It could be argued that Lyanna was underage, and cannot give consent, but the marriage would still be legal, until an annulment/dissolution could be arranged. However, Rhaegar is the Crown Prince, and out-ranks everyone in Westeros other than the King, who really could be the only one to dissolve the marriage.

I think we're going to find out just how legal Tyrion and Tysha's marriage is/was at some point, even though he was only 13 at the time.

Edit - Ygrain is an awesome :ninja:

[Ghost's Shadow]

There is no support that the liege's lack of consent automatically invalidates the marriage, but that they might take action to make it invalid. By your logic, Sansa's marriage to Tyrion would have been invalid, because Robb as the head of House Stark never gave his consent.

What does matter, though, is the consent of the king as the highest authority of law in Westeros. He can definitely order or forbid a marriage; we do not know if he can cancel it because we are not given any precedent.

I'm not exactly following the discussion, but I saw this post of Ygrain's and there was something on my mind on that topic.

What if Jon Snow were to openly be crowned King Jon Stark, making him a 'full' brother to Sansa, before her wedding to Harry the Heir? Littlefinger plans to reveal her real name before the wedding, I think, but if she's a princess/sister to a King once more, would Jon's permission not be needed?

People must realise that Sansa, if she were to suddenly show up in the Vale, is 'missing' to her kin, so can you just marry her off like that?

[Moët]

I'm not exactly following the discussion, but I saw this post of Ygrain's and there was something on my mind on that topic.

What if Jon Snow were to openly be crowned King Jon Stark, making him a 'full' brother to Sansa, before her wedding to Harry the Heir? Littlefinger plans to reveal her real name before the wedding, I think, but if she's a princess/sister to a King once more, would Jon's permission not be needed?

People must realise that Sansa, if she were to suddenly show up in the Vale, is 'missing' to her kin, so can you just marry her off like that?

The discussion (at present) is on the legality of Rhaegar's (clandestine) marriage to Lyanna, making Jon a Targaryen, and the legitimate heir.

[Jon Icefyre]

So i've been catching up on a few things concerning Rhaegar, Elia and the rebellion SSM related and I found this:

"There were Dornish troops with Rhaegar at the Trident, under the command of Prince Lewyn of the Kingsguard. However, the Dornishmen did not support him strongly, in part because of Rhaegar's treatment of his wife Elia."

I bring this up because I remember a while back there was a discussion on this thread about whether Elia gave Rhaegar her permission to run off with Lyanna seeing as though she couldn't have anymore children. Well it seems if that was indeed the case she didn't let Dorne know because according to this SSM they were indeed offended by Rhaegar's treatment of Elia. But then again GRRM never really gives us any sort of mention of Dorne's feelings towards Rhaegar's treatment of Elia through any of the Dorninsh POV's in the text and I find that extremely odd. After the rebellion Oberyn tried to rally Dorne to Viserys but I'm wondering had the KG defeated Ned and indeed named Jon as Rhaegar true heir and King of Westeros what would have Oberyn done then?

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

I'm not exactly following the discussion, but I saw this post of Ygrain's and there was something on my mind on that topic.

What if Jon Snow were to openly be crowned King Jon Stark, making him a 'full' brother to Sansa, before her wedding to Harry the Heir? Littlefinger plans to reveal her real name before the wedding, I think, but if she's a princess/sister to a King once more, would Jon's permission not be needed?

People must realise that Sansa, if she were to suddenly show up in the Vale, is 'missing' to her kin, so can you just marry her off like that?

Regarding Littlefinger's intentions, remember that at present everyone believes Sansa's entire family to be dead, so control of her marriage probably falls to whichever Lord controls her person (LF)

I think if Jon were to become a legitimized Stark it would throw such a huge wrench in LF's plans for her that I would tremble for her safety :worried:

[Ghost's Shadow]

So i've been catching up on a few things concerning Rhaegar, Elia and the rebellion SSM related and I found this:

"There were Dornish troops with Rhaegar at the Trident, under the command of Prince Lewyn of the Kingsguard. However, the Dornishmen did not support him strongly, in part because of Rhaegar's treatment of his wife Elia."

I bring this up because I remember a while back there was a discussion on this thread about whether Elia gave Rhaegar her permission to run off with Lyanna seeing as though she couldn't have anymore children. Well it seems if that was indeed the case she didn't let Dorne know because according to this SSM they were indeed offended by Rhaegar's treatment of Elia. But then again GRRM never really gives us any sort of mention of Dorne's feelings towards Rhaegar's treatment of Elia through any of the Dorninsh POV's in the text and I find that extremely odd. After the rebellion Oberyn tried to rally Dorne to Viserys but I'm wondering had the KG defeated Ned and indeed named Jon as Rhaegar true heir and King of Westeros what would have Oberyn done then?

If Jon were to ever become King, or if they were to learn of Rhaegar having a child with another woman, we might be wrong in thinking Dorne would support him (fully). The Daynes might know about him, but they seem to lay low in general.

[Jon Icefyre]

If Jon were to ever become King, or if they were to learn of Rhaegar having a child with another woman, we might be wrong in thinking Dorne would support him (fully). The Daynes might know about him, but they seem to lay low in general.

Ya that's my point if Dorne was upset about Rhaegar and Elia then I don't know receptive they would or will be towards Jon. I really hope GRRM at some point finds a way to gives us a more up close and personal view of the KG at the TOJ, to show if they had any sort of plan with what to do with Jon. I know GRRM has already signed a deal with hbo to do a GOT prequal series and possibly a movie too, so we'll have to wait and see.