[BOOK SPOILERS] The Wall Climb Opinions and Tormund

[Gendels Children]

The kiss scene was completely cheesy, but I do understand what the show was trying to do. It was showing Jon is developing true feelings for Ygritte. He was the one who kissed her after he saw how she felt as she was looking at the other side of the wall. It'll make the eventual ending of that relationship a tearjerker.

exactly, and given the way they have rather let us down with J&Y progressing story line I think they had to put some real sappy stuff in, and it was more than just some bug kiss it an overwhelming moment for the two of them, the fear that they could have lost one another and a moment that looks like it will kick start a transition in the relationship. all this we needed to make their/her ending all the more hear breaking

Is anyone else expecting a reveal about Orell being Ygritte's ex-boyfriend?

I had been expecting that from the start when I realised who he was. the Orel in the books was with Ygritte when Jon 'stole' her, she mentioned that in one of his chapters, but it was not said if Orel had staked a claim in her before Jon came a killed his human body

[Gendels Children]

what? Damn. Jon's character is screwed. Jon Snow is probably the smartest of the Starks. Granted, that's not saying much, but still.

I'm not sure Kit Harington has stated he thinks Jon is dumb. RE: the writing, I agree they could have to date given viewers more of the same glimpse into Jon's thinking the books have. It's tough, as with all the POV characters, to get into their heads on screen without a cheesy voice over.

For Jon, there are two additional issues. Unlike many of the other POVs, he's an introvert, so by nature he doesn't speak much in the books. We KNOW he's smart and a good guy based on what we see about his thought process in addition to his actions. However, his actions don't really kick up a notch until he becomes LC, and we see his planning ability and foresight. Up to now on the show, we've seen Jon save Mormont from the reanimated guy, kill Qhorin, and now make it up the wall. Like the books, not much.

The other big show vs. book issue is Jon's age-up for the show. In the books, we see him as a sullen teenager who quickly grows up as LC. The sullen teen thing obviously doesn't quite work for a Jon who looks to be in his twenties.

I think given these issues, I am more than happy with show Jon. I'd expect we will see better and more Jon action with Queenscrown, the first Castle Black battle, and of course eventually as LC.

I agree with both here ^ Jon was much smarter than TV Jon. I think its in part due to us not being able to read whats happening in his head, and part due to his storyline being so neglected, I don't want to say its bad writing.. simply not enough writing or credit due to Jon

They should have kept Ghost with him and given Jon an outlet to vent his feelings.

this, I was sure they would have done for this season. as each episode came out I was just wishing Ghost would make his way back to Jon, so non reading viewers could understand the intensity of Jons inner turmoil, but I guess conflicting emotions are hard to present externally, especially when your character is actually trying his hardest to hide said turmoil from being easily viewed by people around him... hmmf

but back to OP the climb scene was great!! very happy tormund is starting to lighten up a bit XD

rant over..

[Darryk]

I must be one of the few people who thought the kiss scene at the end was quite poignant. It gave the characters a moment of solace amidst all the turmoil. something very rare in this story. Also, someone suggested that having it occur right after LF's monologue about "the climb" was a way of showing that for Jon, the climb is not "all there is".

[FlipFantastic]

Whoa, Ygritee is a stage 5 clinger!

i thought last week was bad when Ygritte went from the cool outdoorsy chick to, "I never want to leave this cave with you Jon Snow. Not ever and ever and everrr..." or something like that. But, this week!.... yikes, she threatens to kill him, confesses her true love, and again repeats her desire to be with him and only him and nothing else matters. That all happened very very fast, one crazy girl!

Run away, Jon Snow, as fast as you can!

[Dornish Hen]

You can't deny that TV Tormund has one hell of a voice as well!

I'd like for Tormund, Berric, and Jorah to have a voice off. RIght now, I'm rooting for Tormund. Har!

[King of the Road]

I'd like for Tormund, Berric, and Jorah to have a voice off. RIght now, I'm rooting for Tormund. Har!

Nah, as good as Tormund and Beric are I'm not sure they'd last a second against the majesty of Iain Glen!

[Pugsley]

I must be one of the few people who thought the kiss scene at the end was quite poignant. It gave the characters a moment of solace amidst all the turmoil. something very rare in this story. Also, someone suggested that having it occur right after LF's monologue about "the climb" was a way of showing that for Jon, the climb is not "all there is".

I agree. Maybe I'm a sap but I found the ending quite moving. And I wasn't a fan of Jon/Ygritte in the books. Maybe I was just so happy that the show finally remembered Jon Snow exists! I read a post elsewhere from a non-book reader who described Jon's storyline as an unimportant side plot and just groaned.

As for Kit Harington calling Jon "dumb," he said in a later interview that it was taken out of context, and what he meant was that Jon will often act on instinct, rather than thinking everything through ahead of time.

[Gendels Children]

I agree. Maybe I'm a sap but I found the ending quite moving. And I wasn't a fan of Jon/Ygritte in the books. Maybe I was just so happy that the show finally remembered Jon Snow exists! I read a post elsewhere from a non-book reader who described Jon's storyline as an unimportant side plot and just groaned.

As for Kit Harington calling Jon "dumb," he said in a later interview that it was taken out of context, and what he meant was that Jon will often act on instinct, rather than thinking everything through ahead of time.

I know exactly how you mean. people keep forgetting about Jon and truly seeing him as a side character (clearly not people who have read the books) and I cant say I blame them, there just hasn't been enough of his story for people to understand and become attached to his plot. the TV adaption really hasn't done poor Jonny justice and I worry it will effect Jons credibility as a LC.it doesn't help that Jon is quite a silent character (from an external pov) since we have had the advantage of being in his head we can appreciate the difficult decisions feeling he battles at every step. but this scene this week was just what the viewers needed, to say "see people this guys still here and he is actually pretty interesting"

[Tirilei]

The Jon and Ygritte relationship is the best relationship in the entire series so far. I wish they could both stay around. Since everyone says Ygritte is going to die, that's too bad, and I'll sure miss her. She is one woman I could identify with. That will be a big loss for the series, if she is not there any more. It would have been great to see her encounter the southern world and confront some of the other characters, especially other women.

[Broken Fox]

Jon's story is getting better, but it pales in comparison to the books. Goofball acting from Harington, no Ghost, and the oddly rushed romance = :bs:

[Mammothsbane]

I'd like for Tormund, Berric, and Jorah to have a voice off. RIght now, I'm rooting for Tormund. Har!

Littlefinger's Batman voice would wipe the floor with all of them.

RA'S AL GHUL IS DEAD! WHO ARE YOU WORKING FOR?!

I know exactly how you mean. people keep forgetting about Jon and truly seeing him as a side character (clearly not people who have read the books) and I cant say I blame them, there just hasn't been enough of his story for people to understand and become attached to his plot. the TV adaption really hasn't done poor Jonny justice and I worry it will effect Jons credibility as a LC.it doesn't help that Jon is quite a silent character (from an external pov) since we have had the advantage of being in his head we can appreciate the difficult decisions feeling he battles at every step. but this scene this week was just what the viewers needed, to say "see people this guys still here and he is actually pretty interesting"

Them botching his S2 adventures with Qhorin made Jon Snow look terrible as well. I think they will do a good job of making him defend Castle Black against Mance before Stannis shows up, which will help re-establish his credibility in the LC voting. And some political string-pulling by Sam will probably help as well. IDK if they'll show the Pyke/Mallister thing, but Sam pulling the strings is pretty important.

Making Jon LC was pretty "lol, wut?" in the novels too though. At least, for me.

[tryagainlater]

Would have preferred the romantic kiss to be between Tormund and Orell but that may be my immaturity speaking.

[Dornish Hen]

Littlefinger's Batman voice would wipe the floor with all of them.

Hmmm...I hadn't thought about adding Littlefinger to the competition. He would scare the judges into voting for him.

[Broken Fox]

Them botching his S2 adventures with Qhorin made Jon Snow look terrible as well.

Yeah, seriously. It's like the writers sat down and said "Let's remove everything cool Jon did in the book and make him look like a total dumbass instead."

[ebevan91]

Hopefully they redeem Jon's story with Queenscrown and the attack(s) on the Wall/Castle Black.

[Gendels Children]

^^^ I think they kinda have too if they want this character to be remotely what it was on the books, they need to really show us what he can do and how he really isn't the blundering fool the adaption has made him out to be, or else (like I mentioned before) the how LC thing will just be like wtf..

[Mammothsbane]

^^^ I think they kinda have too if they want this character to be remotely what it was on the books, they need to really show us what he can do and how he really isn't the blundering fool the adaption has made him out to be, or else (like I mentioned before) the how LC thing will just be like wtf..

Well since Donal Noye isn't in the show, Jon will probably come up with most of the defensive strategy. Maybe Aemon will help as well, but I think most of the heavy lifting will be Jon's. So the "he's a pretty good strategist" argument will be a good basis to get him at least nominated.

Then Sam manipulates everyone and voila, Jon is the new Lord Commander, beginning his triumphant march to more dumb mistakes.

[Tirilei]

So,... (non-book-reader here), now that Jon knows that the wildlings aren't really all that bad and that they just want to get south to save themselves from those white zombies, it's kind of sad to hear that the NW will still fight them with him in the lead. I was hoping to see him become a true peace maker. Basically, he has "gone Native" and has come to get an insight into tribal life, and the NW is like a mix of Fort Bowie and the Order of the Knights of Malta or the Teutonic Knights. I'm with Ygritte who asked Jon why the NW are fighting the wildlings.

[JMJ]

Well, I've been thinking a bit more about book vs. show Jon. It's interesting that since all of us here know Book!Jon much better than show Jon, we don't have the perspective of the show-only viewer, of course. If you think about how Jon has been portrayed on the show, it's true that he's shown very little in him that would make him seem like the likely "hero" or main character (if there's such a thing in ASOIAF) of the show. He's really flying under the radar so far. Right now, it's all about Dany and her Dragons, Stannis, Tyrion, Robb, etc. as possible story "heroes".

This is interesting if you think about it, as when we get to Jon being chosen LC, it will be quite a shocker to show-only viewers. Once there's more of a hint about R+L=J, it will be totally mind-blowing. I'm wondering if in the end, this is the specific intent of D+D.