Is indeed Sansa's infatuation with the Hound mutual?

[Mladen]

Grease was actually the first example that popped into my head, but I found it too silly to mention.

Not as silly as shallow. Dig deeper :).

BTW, I do know you are right on some level, I just need something equally deep.

[Andrea Darling]

Not as silly as shallow. Dig deeper :).

BTW, I do know you are right on some level, I just need something equally deep.

Hey, don't knock Grease, bub.

Look at me,

There has to be,

something more than what they see

Wholesome and pure,

Oh so scared and unsure, a pawn then,

Sandra Dee

Sandy, you must start anew,

Don't you know what you must do

Hold your head high,

Take a deep breath and sigh

Goodbye to Sandra Dee

This could be Sansa's theme song.

[The Sleeper]

Well, sexual I am not certain. What I am certain of is that he feels something romantic for her.

In my mind romantic feelings have a sexual component. Yes, I think he sees her as the maiden in the songs and he unconscieously wants to see himself as the knight who protects and saves her. What this signifies for him is not sexual attraction, but that Sansa inspires in him something that he does not admit to himself. A need to feel appreciated and respected and more than that to have a life of meaning and purpose like the knights in the songs that he so much scorns.

This desire originally manifest by him trying to bring Sansa over to his own way of thinking. What he ends up with is realizing that he cannot tolerate his life for much longer.

I would say he has the case of PTSD that resulted in severe phobia of fire. But, also we have to emphasize this, he has immense psychological strength that he managed to overcome fear and fight. It says a lot about him.

Let we just say, we agree to disagree. I believe that him being drunk and especially mentally strong helped him in overpassing uncontrollable fear.

I am not doubting his bravery, regardless of whether or not he had to overcome mental health issues. It is after all irrelevant to my point. The drunk part is relevent to his intentions that night which I don't think were thought through.

[Mladen]

Hey, don't knock Grease, bub.

Look at me,

There has to be,

something more than what they see

Wholesome and pure,

Oh so scared and unsure, a pawn then,

Sandra Dee Sandy,

You must start anew,

Don't you know what you must do

Hold your head high,

Take a deep breath and sigh

Goodbye to Sandra Dee

This could be Sansa's theme song.

:bowdown: . Lovely :)

[bbstark]

ugh this is one of those theories that will never grow on me. I love Sansa, and I can appreciate Sandor as a character, but nothing will ever wipe off the fact that when they met she was only 12 years old.

People tend to call Tyrion pedophile because he wanted to consummate the marriage with Sansa, expecting her to fulfill her duties, little child that she was... but somehow Sandor gets a pardon because Sansa's feelings for him are mutual? I can't get on that boat, sorry. It doesn't work that way. I find his attraction to her at best tragic, and at their worst, unspeakably perverse. And NO better than Tyrion's.

Also, I would find the argument that Sandor wants romance from Sansa, rather than just sex, a bit more believable if he had been kinder to her ONLY SISTER.... He couldn't even summon the least bit of kindness when he spoke of Sansa to Arya. I found that behavior disgusting, like ... what? He was pissed that he was stuck with the wrong Stark? the wolf bitch instead of his little bird? f*ck that ! Something about that just so rubs me the wrong way.

And btw. I highly doubt Sansa would think so highly of him if she'd had known how he treated her sis.

Arya is far more important in Sansa's life than Sandor... attraction comes and goes, but family is forever. If he'd had realized that, he would have behaved better.

I've read a lot through the beauty and beast posts, I think you guys did a great job with the analysis, but I also think this version is just far too dark and far too crappy for a happy ending. Some of the things that Sandor did are just unredeemable. sorry to rain on your parade SanSans, I just don't think this one's going to happen!

[Lady Arya's Song]

I read all the Sansa rereads ..everyone's posts and all the analysis..followed that whole thread for a long time. The PTSD done by Milady of York if I recall correctly really changed my thinking on Sandor...each analysis that each person contributed was excellent.

[Minsc]

Also, I would find the argument that Sandor wants romance from Sansa, rather than just sex, a bit more believable if he had been kinder to her ONLY SISTER.... He couldn't even summon the least bit of kindness when he spoke of Sansa to Arya. I found that behavior disgusting, like ... what? He was pissed that he was stuck with the wrong Stark? the wolf bitch instead of his little bird? f*ck that ! Something about that just so rubs me the wrong way.

And btw. I highly doubt Sansa would think so highly of him if she'd had known how he treated her sis.

Arya is far more important in Sansa's life than Sandor... attraction comes and goes, but family is forever. If he'd had realized that, he would have behaved better.

Why does someone who is interested in someone else have to like that one's loved ones? Just check out JonCon, he loves Rhaegar and Aegon but extremely dislikes Elia their wife and mother respectively. Also, why Sandor is harsh he doesn't really mistreat Arya and instead treats her okay in his own messed up way.

[mrunderhill]

I've read a lot through the beauty and beast posts, I think you guys did a great job with the analysis, but I also think this version is just far too dark and far too crappy for a happy ending. Some of the things that Sandor did are just unredeemable. sorry to rain on your parade SanSans, I just don't think this one's going to happen!

I don't think anyone is irredeemable, but Sandor actually has done much wrong to be irredeemable. His worst crime was killing Mycah by far and he has not only suffered for that, but he had the defense that he was ordered. He is a bad man sure, but he has actually controlled most of his evil thoughts including killing the Hound.

[bbstark]

Why does someone who is interested in someone else have to like that one's loved ones? Just check out JonCon, he loves Rhaegar and Aegon but extremely dislikes Elia their wife and mother respectively. Also, why Sandor is harsh he doesn't really mistreat Arya and instead treats her okay in his own messed up way.

It's true, he doesn't mistreat her. (I wonder if that's a step up for him ?)

But when he talks about Sansa, he is downright *cruel*. He could have said nothing at all, but he mentioned something alond the lines "I should have fucked your sister". It's malicious, he's doing it specifically to hurt Arya at that point, and it seems to have no rhyme or reason. Does he do it to remind Arya in what a horrible situation her poor sister is left behind? Or to get his own anger out, about the fact that she got married to Tyrion? (I think at this point in the narrative he already knows)

It's completely natural, that if you're in love with someone that you should want to be nice to their relatives. it's a way to get closer, if not be reminded of them. That really is a common thing.

(And JonCon, didn't just love Rhaegar, he desired him, Elia is kind of in the way in this scenario, no?)

[Minsc]

It's true, he doesn't mistreat her. (I wonder if that's a step up for him ?)

But when he talks about Sansa, he is downright *cruel*. He could have said nothing at all, but he mentioned something alond the lines "I should have fucked your sister". It's malicious, he's doing it specifically to hurt Arya at that point, and it seems to have no rhyme or reason.

He is trying to convince Arya to kill him at that moment, thus making her angry at him helps with that task.

Before that when he talks about Sansa he brags about he rescued her and she gave him a song thus it seems like he is trying to puff himself up as sometype of hero in regards to Sansa.

[Light a wight tonight]

I don't deny the affection, I don't see any undertones of sexual desire of the Hound's behalf. On the contrary sexual desire would spoil the idealization which causes Sandor's affection. I don't think he wants a lover, he wants a purpose.

Nevermind, that a grown-ass man being attracted to an 11-year old is outright pedophilia, yes, even by Westerosi standards.

I think you're misinterpreting what goes into pedophilia. That's a sexual attraction to kids generally. My take is that Sandor's feelings toward Sansa are very different than that, that he's attracted to her personality. His actions toward her, making her look at his burned face and ridiculing her beliefs that the world is just like the songs she love so well, would seem to be aimed at driving her away, not getting her off someplace private. He has some level of self-hate for the way he's led his life and probably fears rejection.

[bbstark]

He is trying to convince Arya to kill him at that moment, thus making her angry at him helps with that task.

Before that when he talks about Sansa he brags about he rescued her and she gave him a song thus it seems like he is trying to puff himself up as sometype of hero in regards to Sansa.

He did say that he saved Sansa, but the song part was taunting her, because he was mentioning Mycah, which is the reason why Arya hates the hound.

First he talked about killing the mountain, then Arya said "but he's your brother". Then Sandor said " Didn't you ever have a brother you wanted to kill? Or a sister" Then he laughs (cruel) because he sees something in her expression, and deduces that Arya and Sansa hate each other. And he laughs about it.

They might not get along so great, but in no way does it deserve the same comparison as Sandor and Gregor! In fact from the text the "something in her expression" can be interpreted not as "I want to kill Sansa", but simply as "oh, but Sansa and I don't get along"

The comparison to himself and his brother is ridiculous, but he goes for it, because he's the kind of twisted bastard to whom it was funny.

(I'm referring to SoS chapter 47; the kindle cloud reader doesn't let me copy/paste... ugh)

The mentioning of Sansa giving him a song, isn't trying to play up his heroic deeds, but taunt her. He does try to defend himself, because he says that "Killing [mycah] might make me a monster , but I also rescued your sister"... and then he says something very interesting: He says he was trying to prevent Sansa from having the same fate as Lollys Stokeworth.

Now this is interesting because: 1. Arya doesn't know who the fuck Lollys Stokeworth is. and 2. if she did, she wouldn't know what happened to her, because she's been in the Riverlands this whole time.

So he is defending himself, but not to Arya, probably to himself though.

So you *could* argue he's on a (very very slow ) redemption path... so fine, my earlier accusation of unredeemable was too strong, whatever, I'm not afraid to say when I was wrong

But you can't argue that he was being kind to Arya, he's clearly taunting her, that He the Hound that killed Mycah, who is so very hated by Arya got a pretty song out of her sister.... that's pretty damn cruel.

And about the time that he's trying to get her to kill him: ridiculous. Arya tried to kill him a dozen times, he didn't have to be such a dick about it, all he had to do was ask.

[Ser Pounce FTW]

Not just mutual, but I think he's a lot more open about it than Sansa is. So far, Sansa's attraction has stayed at the level of the subconscious mostly. Sandor's affection for her is obvious, however.

I'm wondering if you can cite some examples of his obvious affection for her. I can't really think of any and would love to see what the text states about his affection rather than him rescuing her and telling her she's a little bird that repeats what she's been told.

And btw. I highly doubt Sansa would think so highly of him if she'd had known how he treated her sis.

Arya is far more important in Sansa's life than Sandor... attraction comes and goes, but family is forever. If he'd had realized that, he would have behaved better.

While I agree that family is forever, sadly Sansa's history doesn't reflect this sentiment. She's come to appreciate her family much more now but I'm not sure she would be very angry about how he treated Arya. She excuses a lot of his aggressive behavior toward herself so I see her excuses it toward Arya, too. Also, she thinks that Arya is responsible for a lot of the trouble she finds herself in. So, while he does treat her sister poorly, I doubt Sansa would side with Arya against the Hound here. Not when there's unkissing and bloody cloaks and thoughts of the marital bed to occupy her mind with.

[Minsc]

And about the time that he's trying to get her to kill him: ridiculous. Arya tried to kill him a dozen times, he didn't have to be such a dick about it, all he had to do was ask.

He directly tells her to give him the mercy(kill him) before he brings that up, but Arya refuses and leaves him to the wolves.

[Mladen]

People tend to call Tyrion pedophile because he wanted to consummate the marriage with Sansa, expecting her to fulfill her duties, little child that she was... but somehow Sandor gets a pardon because Sansa's feelings for him are mutual? I can't get on that boat, sorry. It doesn't work that way. I find his attraction to her at best tragic, and at their worst, unspeakably perverse. And NO better than Tyrion's.

BB, I have the biggest problem with double standards anywhere, and this is not exception. Is it creepy when LF watches Sansa? Yes. Is it weird Tyrion to lust for her? Yes. Would it be creepy if Sandor wanted the same? Yes. But unlike Tyrion and LF, Sandor`s emotions are rather more platonic, and somewhat innocent. The sexual conotation into their relationship has been brought by Sansa, not him. As for attraction, he is deeply wounded person, someone who had no luck in life, and Sansa becomes his light at the end of very long tunnel. Perhaps he isn`t open for relationship, but he allows Sansa to go under his skin and influence him for the better.

I've read a lot through the beauty and beast posts, I think you guys did a great job with the analysis, but I also think this version is just far too dark and far too crappy for a happy ending. Some of the things that Sandor did are just unredeemable. sorry to rain on your parade SanSans, I just don't think this one's going to happen!

Nothing is irredeemable. If you want to repent for your crimes, truly feel the remorse, than you should be given the chance. The thing about Sansa and Sandor at the beginning is that they influence each other. Sandor helps Sansa countless times, he makes her understand that she needs to be better liar in order to survive, and she basically set him on redemption path. This is not some wicked sexual perversion, this is love in its purest, most powerful form. Even if there were never kiss, even if the both of them never loudly said how they feel or made a move, this has become the most beautiful storyarc in ASOIAF. For in the world of viciousness, cruelty, in harsh, vile world, there`s still beauty and innocence.

But, as much as I believe in love story between the two of them, I am also skeptical it`ll end with some happy ending. The love may live, the platonic sentiment may survive in both of them, but will the world they live in allow them a chance? I don`t think so. Like the blue roses, it will fade because of harshness and cruelty of the world. This story, as beautiful as it is, I bet will also be one of the saddest love stories we have ever read.

While I agree that family is forever, sadly Sansa's history doesn't reflect this sentiment. She's come to appreciate her family much more now but I'm not sure she would be very angry about how he treated Arya.

This is why Sansa reminds me of her aunt, and I mean Lyanna. If I could guess what Lyanna was feeling at the end, I bet it would be something Sansa feels evr since she was betrayed by Cersei and Joffrey. Sometimes we don`t know what we have until we loose it. And no one better showed that than Lyanna and Sansa.

[bbstark]

While I agree that family is forever, sadly Sansa's history doesn't reflect this sentiment. She's come to appreciate her family much more now but I'm not sure she would be very angry about how he treated Arya. She excuses a lot of his aggressive behavior toward herself so I see her excuses it toward Arya, too. Also, she thinks that Arya is responsible for a lot of the trouble she finds herself in. So, while he does treat her sister poorly, I doubt Sansa would side with Arya against the Hound here. Not when there's unkissing and bloody cloaks and thoughts of the marital bed to occupy her mind with.

That's a terribly inaccurate observation of Sansa. Sansa's always appreciated her family. She doesn't get along with Arya, because Sansa doesn't understand why Arya doesn't strive to be the perfect young lady, and Arya doesn't understand why Sansa does all those "girly" things. It's a fairly common misunderstanding between sisters, it doesn't mean they are not protective of each other

As things stand, Sansa doesn't even know Arya is alive, which is probably why she doesn't let her thoughts be occupied too much with her lost sister. She allows herself to think of Jon, but as far as Sansa knows, he's the only one still alive.

She didn't allow herself to grieve her family, because it would get in the way of her armor of courtesy, that she needed while surrounded by her enemies in KL.

Arya on the other hand knows at the very least that Sansa is alive thanks to Sandor, and contemplates their differences a lot more.

[Ser Pounce FTW]

That's a terribly inaccurate observation of Sansa. Sansa's always appreciated her family. She doesn't get along with Arya, because Sansa doesn't understand why Arya doesn't strive to be the perfect young lady, and Arya doesn't understand why Sansa does all those "girly" things. It's a fairly common misunderstanding between sisters, it doesn't mean they are not protective of each other

Your quote was: Arya is far more important in Sansa's life than Sandor... attraction comes and goes, but family is forever. I'm happy to include several quotes from Sansa where she shows that she doesn't follow this philosophy. Again, she has grown significantly since she last saw Arya but when given the chance to show whether her family was more important that her attraction to a man, she opted for the man. That is not inaccurate.

[Ragnorak]

I read all the Sansa rereads ..everyone's posts and all the analysis..followed that whole thread for a long time. The PTSD done by Milady of York if I recall correctly really changed my thinking on Sandor...each analysis that each person contributed was excellent.

Agreed. The Milady of York post called The Two Faces of the Beast spans three posts and does a superb job of putting Sandor's time with Arya into perspective as well as his line:

I meant to take her too. I should have. I should have fucked her bloody and ripped her heart out before leaving her for that dwarf.

[bbstark]

BB, I have the biggest problem with double standards anywhere, and this is not exception. Is it creepy when LF watches Sansa? Yes. Is it weird Tyrion to lust for her? Yes. Would it be creepy if Sandor wanted the same? Yes. But unlike Tyrion and LF, Sandor`s emotions are rather more platonic, and somewhat innocent. The sexual conotation into their relationship has been brought by Sansa, not him. As for attraction, he is deeply wounded person, someone who had no luck in life, and Sansa becomes his light at the end of very long tunnel. Perhaps he isn`t open for relationship, but he allows Sansa to go under his skin and influence him for the better.

I know you're not the type to have double standards, I appreciate that about you. :)

I still happen to think that Sandor's attraction for Sansa is very creepy, even if he did the honorable thing and did not force himself on her.

I do think that it's far less creepy than either LF's behavior or her bedding scene with Tyrion. (At least Tyrion *tried* to be more honorable, even if afterwards, it's fairly obvious his reasons aren't really for Sansa's benefit)

Nothing is irredeemable. If you want to repent for your crimes, truly feel the remorse, than you should be given the chance. The thing about Sansa and Sandor at the beginning is that they influence each other. Sandor helps Sansa countless times, he makes her understand that she needs to be better liar in order to survive, and she basically set him on redemption path. This is not some wicked sexual perversion, this is love in its purest, most powerful form. Even if there were never kiss, even if the both of them never loudly said how they feel or made a move, this has become the most beautiful storyarc in ASOIAF. For in the world of viciousness, cruelty, in harsh, vile world, there`s still beauty and innocence.

But, as much as I believe in love story between the two of them, I am also skeptical it`ll end with some happy ending. The love may live, the platonic sentiment may survive in both of them, but will the world they live in allow them a chance? I don`t think so. Like the blue roses, it will fade because of harshness and cruelty of the world. This story, as beautiful as it is, I bet will also be one of the saddest love stories we have ever read.

I just don't see the love story, I'm sorry. I really love Sansa's character, but I also think it's natural for a young girl to fall in love with whatever goodness and beauty she sees around her, and Sandor does in a way show her the only real goodness while she's in KL. Also many young girls fall in love with grown men (like movie stars for instance), but that is only from a distance, and usually just a phase, otherwise, it really is very unhealthy.

I know it's a sensitive topic, but I find even the idea of his attraction to her appalling. She might be "flowered" but she's still a child. I didn't feel any differently for Drogo/Daenerys, for instance (or Jorah/Daenerys).

The only thing Sandor has going for him is that he is the only one that doesn't act on it. It's honorable, and it might set him on a path of redemption. I've said in an earlier post that my accusation of "unredeemable" was too harsh, (probably said in anger), but to be perfectly honest, what I don't understand, is the 'shipping of this couple', it's just beyond me. The best thing in this story line, as far I'm concerned, is his redemption, and rethinking of the ways in which he earns his livelihood.

[Mladen]

I know you're not the type to have double standards, I appreciate that about you. :)

Thank you for this. You make me :blushing: :blushing: :blushing: once again.

I just don't see the love story, I'm sorry. I really love Sansa's character, but I also think it's natural for a young girl to fall in love with whatever goodness and beauty she sees around her, and Sandor does in a way show her the only real goodness while she's in KL. Also many young girls fall in love with grown men (like movie stars for instance), but that is only from a distance, and usually just a phase, otherwise, it really is very unhealthy.

This is not going to be modern day love story in which everything ends up with either marriage or some closure. There is a great chance that these two`s love story be something they feel but never act upon it.

The only thing Sandor has going for him is that he is the only one that doesn't act on it. It's honorable, and it might set him on a path of redemption. I've said in an earlier post that my accusation of "unredeemable" was too harsh, (probably said in anger), but to be perfectly honest, what I don't understand, is the 'shipping of this couple', it's just beyond me. The best thing in this story line, as far I'm concerned, is his redemption, and rethinking of the ways in which he earns his livelihood.

His redemption arc is making him closer to her, her maturity make her closer to him. But, will GRRM lead them straight to some great romance? No, I think Sandor would bleed and die for her, because he sees the best of him in her.

And as for shipping, I won`t tell whom I imagine Sansa to end up with since most likely I`ll be cruccified :)