The Text of the Kingsguard Vow

[Stormkith]

Something to add to the debate about the vows, consider the following exchange from AFfC.

Arianne = “No more than you have sworn. Protect Myrcella with your life. Defend her… and her rights. Set a crown upon her head.”

Arys = “I swore an oath.”

Arianne = “To Joffrey, not to Tommen.” AFfC p. 195

That might just be Arianne's incomplete understanding of the oath. Do Kingsguard swear the oath anew to each king, or is it sworn the once, and carries over? If it IS sworn when a new king is crowned, wouldn't that have been part of the coronation? Or at least mentioned in passing? I find it more likely that they swear the oath to defend whomever is king, not just the current king.

[mindchap]

That might just be Arianne's incomplete understanding of the oath. Do Kingsguard swear the oath anew to each king, or is it sworn the once, and carries over? If it IS sworn when a new king is crowned, wouldn't that have been part of the coronation? Or at least mentioned in passing? I find it more likely that they swear the oath to defend whomever is king, not just the current king.

Pure speculation here but I would think as long as it's succession they would carry over, say, from Joff to Tomm but not from, say, Aerys to Robert. But I have no proof of that anywhere yet.

I think Arriane was just trying to manipulate it to her favor.

[Ser Leftwich]

That might just be Arianne's incomplete understanding of the oath. Do Kingsguard swear the oath anew to each king, or is it sworn the once, and carries over? If it IS sworn when a new king is crowned, wouldn't that have been part of the coronation? Or at least mentioned in passing? I find it more likely that they swear the oath to defend whomever is king, not just the current king.

Here is the next section of the conversation:

Arys = “Aye, but Tommen is a good-hearted boy. He will be a better king than Joffrey.”

Arianne = “But not better than Myrcella. She loves the boy as well. I know she will not let him come to any harm. Storm’s End is his by rights, since Lord Renly left no heir and Lord Stannis is attainted. In time, Casterly Rock will pass to the boy as well, through his lady mother. He will be as great a lord as any in the realm . . . but Myrcella by rights should sit the Iron Throne.”

Arys = “The law . . . I do not know . . .” (I don't know what to do: follow my oath/vows or follow the law about no female succession.)

AFfC p. 195

Arys is clearly struggling with a conflict between his KG vow and the later changed law of Targ succession, excluding females.

Arianne also goes on to say:

“I do.” When she stood, the long black tangle of her hair fell down to the small of her back. “Aegon the Dragon made the Kingsguard and its vows, but what one king does another can undo, or change." AFfC p. 195

If Aegon made the KG and the vows, they might not have been added a clause about the female excluding succession. They just left it as was.

While I agree she might just be manipulating the situation to her advantage, she is clearly doing it in a way that produces actual conflict in Arys's mind, to the point that he is not sure which is the correct course of action. His conflict is between something in his vow and the law, Arianne is just exploiting it, not making it up out of thin air.

Much like Barristan's issue in ADwD, when he says it was easier when he had an LC to tell him what to do and not have to figure out the vows versus the laws himself.

[Twinslayer]

The last few posts are a good segue to a new point. Did the KG vows change over time? It's clear that Aegon the Conqueror invented the KG. He was probably pretty safe in battle on Balerion's back but may have needed personal protection at other times. Later kings may have had KG members who were also dragon riders -- we know that several Targ princes served in the KG and at one point there were a lot of dragons (Question: was packing princes off into rhe KG a good way to limit the number of possible claimants to the throne?).

After the dragons died, the kings would have needed personal guards and battle commanders.

Then there is this, from Barristan:

But Daenerys Targaryen had never established a proper Queensguard for herself not issued any commands in respect of her consort.

There is also the fact that the KG served for life for almost 300 years, until the Lannisters broke that rule. (Question -- was serving for life just a tradition or was it part of the vow?)

This all suggests that the monarch is firmly in control of the KG and that the vow may have changed over time to meet new circumstances or a new monarch's whims.

Is there any other evidence that the KG vow may have changed over time?

[Ser Leftwich]

The last few posts are a good segue to a new point. Did the KG vows change over time? It's clear that Aegon the Conqueror invented the KG. He was probably pretty safe in battle on Balerion's back but may have needed personal protection at other times. Later kings may have had KG members who were also dragon riders -- we know that several Targ princes served in the KG and at one point there were a lot of dragons (Question: was packing princes off into rhe KG a good way to limit the number of possible claimants to the throne?).

After the dragons died, the kings would have needed personal guards and battle commanders.

Then there is this, from Barristan:

There is also the fact that the KG served for life for almost 300 years, until the Lannisters broke that rule. (Question -- was serving for life just a tradition or was it part of the vow?)

When Aegon I set up the KG, he may have used the examples of the existing similar orders, maesters and the Night's Watch, from which to draw examples of the vows. No wife, no children, giving up lands, serving for life, etc.

This all suggests that the monarch is firmly in control of the KG and that the vow may have changed over time to meet new circumstances or a new monarch's whims.

Is there any other evidence that the KG vow may have changed over time?

Can't think of any evidence of change of the vows.

[Ser Leftwich]

To phrase it another way, is that Arys's oath (not order) is that he is supposed to do his utmost to secure and crown the immediate heir, upon the king's death. Who, in Arianne's assessment, is Myrcella.

For Arys, the vow succession goes: Joffrey, Myrcella, Tommen, because it is worded from the time of Aegon I.

According to the post-Aegon II law, the succession goes: Joffrey, Tommen, Myrcella.

This is the same theme as Jaime's Dilemma, Stannis's Choice, and others in the books.

Which vow/oath/law/custom to I follow when they conflict?

And is some ways it is even more poignant for Arys because house Oakheart is led by his mother!!

[Twinslayer]

The Kingsguard (pre-Hound) were all knights. So we should add the knights' vow. Here is Dunk's (supposed) vow:

... to be a good knight and true, to obey the seven gods, defend the weak and innocent, serve my lord faithfully and defend the realm with all my might ...

Any other good quotes out there about a regular knight's vows?

[Twinslayer]

Here is some good new information from the Dangerous Women excerpt that is up on Tor.com:

Then as now, the Sworn Brotherhood of the Kingsguard consisted of seven knights, men of proven loyalty and undoubted prowess who had taken solemn oaths to devote their lives to defending the king’s person and kin.

Compare this with what Barristan says in ADWD:

Strictly speaking, it was purely the king's choice whether or not to extend Kingsguard protection to others, even those of royal blood.

My initial take on this is that it indicates that the KG vow at the time of Viserys I was a little different than the one Barristan took under Aerys.

[Twinslayer]

Here is further confirmation of a point that is already established. It is from The Sworn Sword -- a quote from Egg:

"The Kingsguard are sworn not to wed."

[Twinslayer]

So, there is relevant information in The Princess and The Queen. Warning: this has Spoilers:

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/100817-spoilers-boom-what-tp-tq-tells-us-about-jon-snows-bastardy/

Let me know if I have missed something. Otherwise, this seems really significant!

[J. Stargaryen]

So, there is relevant information in The Princess and The Queen. Warning: this has Spoilers:

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/100817-spoilers-boom-what-tp-tq-tells-us-about-jon-snows-bastardy/

Let me know if I have missed something. Otherwise, this seems really significant!

No it doesn't! Lol. Seriously...

[Twinslayer]

No it doesn't! Lol. Seriously...

Do you disagree?

I am sure it does, but if you see it differently please post why (under spoiler tags) or PM me. I want to be sure to get this right.

[Dareaper]

I did not read most, but someone wante dto know why Aegon the Conqueror would want a kingsguard when he had dragons. Dragons can not guard where you sleep, or be with you all the time. And after forcing the 7 kindoms to bend the knee, he would of made a few enemies. So he would imo, need people around him to guard him and his sisters that he could trust while they built KL and secured the kindom.

[Twinslayer]

I did not read most, but someone wante dto know why Aegon the Conqueror would want a kingsguard when he had dragons. Dragons can not guard where you sleep, or be with you all the time. And after forcing the 7 kindoms to bend the knee, he would of made a few enemies. So he would imo, need people around him to guard him and his sisters that he could trust while they built KL and secured the kindom.

That makes a lot of sense. The dragon guards the king while he is on its back. The KG guard the king while he is on the ground.

[Arya kiddin']

(4) serve the king's pleasure;

Oh my, hasn't this gone rather interesting....... What was Rhaegar planning to do with Dayne.... Poor JonCon :lol:

[MtnLion]

No, the place for that discussion is the R+L=J thread. I hope this thread does not degenerate into that topic. For purposes of this thread, I'm more interested in things like why Jaime killed Aerys; why Margaery Tyrell is convinced that Loras will protect her from Joffrey; why Lewyn Martell didn't try to rescue Elia from Aerys when he had a Dornish army at his back; why Barristan chose to try to govern Meereen in Dany's absence when he obviously felt ill-equipped to do that; what Aemon the Dragonknight was up to; why did the Dance of the Dragons happen; why did Aegon the Conqueror need a kingsguard when he had dragons; what motivated young knights in Westeros to join the KG; and a lot of other fascinating topics besides. What the KG were doing at the TOJ is at most a tiny piece of all this. So it would be nice if we could avoid derailing this thread. If you want to talk about R+L=J, please take it to the stickied thread. This one is about the KG vow.

ETA -- For everyone else, I want to discuss all of these topics and more, but I am also very interested in other quotes about the KG vow like the one Mindchap provided. (If you don't have the quote but can point me in the right direction, that is great too).

Jaime killed Aerys because that is the way Jaime is wired (GRRM is responsible for that). Loras may defile himself, for his sister's protection, but that remains to be seen. I never thought that Ser Loras would have any particular fondness for females, though, so it is questionable. Prince Lewyn did as expected, he followed his word to protect and defend the king, which includes allowing him to use family members as hostages against his own house, if the king wishes. Barristan has a choice, he can abandon Meereen to implode, while he goes aimlessly looking for Daenerys, or he can organize a search for her, and still steer Meereen through the rough passage ahead. It seems to me that he is best looking out for Daenerys' interests, I don't know if you think otherwise. The Kingsguard were at the tower of joy because Rhaegar wanted them there, right up until they learned of Rhaegar's, Aegon's, and Aerys' deaths. After the news of the deaths, they were there protecting and defending who they believed was the king.

[corbon]

Do you disagree?

I am sure it does, but if you see it differently please post why (under spoiler tags) or PM me. I want to be sure to get this right.

Equating a situation in which the LC of the KG has instituted a civil war for personal reasons, meaning that there are inherent clashes right through the KGs Oaths for the remaining KG, forcing them to choose what does and does not apply; to a situation where there is no clash, a LCotKG and fellows demonstrably committed to their Oaths and regime, and a clear statement of following their vows is as mind-bogglingly inept as claiming that GRRMs SSM rules out polygamy.

And that ignores the whole 'we actually have personal dragons, which means the KG's roles must inherently be different" thing.

Never mind the whole "Rhaegar's orders are equivalent to a Kings orders because he's a...oops" rubbish.

Nothing noted in that thread changes anything in relation to the ToJ situation. Claiming it does matches past performances, like the polygamy SSM, nothing more.

[WildBlood]

That's my interpretation, too. It is not, however, Twinslayer's.

And is this not the purpose of the forums? To discuss each others opinions? You seem bitter because Twinslayer doesn't share your opinions...

[The Twinslayer]

There isn't much new in the world book. Here is the main quote:

It was Visenya, not Aegon, who decided the nature of the Kingsguard. Seven champions for the Lord of the Seven Kingdoms, who would all be Knights. She modeled their vows upon those of the Night's Watch, so that they would forfeit all things save their duty to the king.

[wolfmaid7]

He's trying to come up with an argument as to why the Kingsguard were at the Tower of Joy instead of with Viserys, if anyone's curious. He's already come to his conclusion and is looking for validation to back it up, instead of the other way around.

... in case anyone was wondering was the motive in all of this was.

Apple was that really necessary? What ever his motive may or may not be he has the right to present, postulate and maybe something will come of it or not.But to do what you just did wasn't cool.