Lies and Arbor Gold: Well Look What We Found

[Real Heir of Bear Island]

Hey Apple, I think your onto something here. I read it the topic yesterday and liked it. On my commute home I re-read The Hedge Knight (finishing up Dreamsongs) and noticed something that made me think of this topis. The Fossoways offer Dunk some Arbor Vintage early in the story. Later on Steffon betryas Dunken's trust and fights with the Targ/Kingsguard alliance. Unfortunaly I believe Raymun the squire, the faithful fossoway offers the drink, but he was sort of vouching for his cousin during the convo.

[FuriousGeorge]

Maybe. I am simply asking what is it good for if it's true. Also, not many people (two or three?) picked up on that after years since the publishing and and several re-reads, which tells me it's not very poignant and makes me doubt if it was intended at all.

I wonder, is vine a conventional symbol for something in RL or is it connected with a widely known myth/legend where it played part in nefarious practices? I searched through the internet for a "vine" and a "golden vine", and Google says it was mostly used to represent temporal blessing, growth, sacred/religious knowledge, and the Jewish nation, but I haven't found any connection to treachery and deceit. I am asking because some of the other symbols GRRM uses have a meaning in RL (e.g., blue roses, pomegranates), so it could be helpful if vine was backed up by RL, too.

This is a quote from Midnight's Children by Salman Rushdie and it is, in my opinion, the most profound explanation of why symbolism has been fundamental to every form of story telling that has ever existed.

'As a people we are obsessed with correspondences. Similarities between this and that, between apparently unconnected things, make us clasp out hands delightedly when we find them out. It is sort of a national longing for form or simply an expression of our deep belief that forms lie hidden within reality; that meaning reveals itself only in flashes'

That is what its good for if its true. (IMO)

[FuriousGeorge]

Actually, I do agree with you, but I think that in addition to your other explications, that symbols can have predictive value sometimes, or at least, to operate as clues sometimes provided the context speaks to this as well.

I don't think that "Arbor Gold = deceit" as a reductive equation. I strongly agree with your assertions about symbolism's innate fluidity and need for contextual adjacencies in order to glean the value of the symbol.

For example, I do believe that Martin has loaded something into Varys' story of the Aegon swap by specifying Arbor Gold, but it's not simply the mention of Arbor Gold that's important. The context of "Pisswater Alley," "Arbor Gold" and how badly Jon Con and Aegon want to believe this story mutually reinforce the notion that this swap story is probably too good to be true.

I think there's an argument for predictive potential wrt the Sansa-LF arc as well, though again, it's not to be reduced to something like "Sansa repeats 'lies and Arbor Gold' and is therefore tricking LF," but rather part of a constellation of other clues that, when taken together, bolsters analysis of the situation.

I didn't mean to suggest that we are on completely different wavelengths becaue obviously I have already said that I think you have definitely found something interesting here and I agree with almost everything you write on this forum. With regards to the extent that we can predict plot points/mood/tone from the symbolism used, I think I was trying to downplay it because the idea that all symbolism is a type of foreshadowing, and that if its not foreshadowing its useless, was annoying me....because I am a complete goob and clearly get annoyed by things that should not annoy me.

ETA - admission that I am a goob

[corbon]

the idea that all symbolism is a type of foreshadowing, and that if its not foreshadowing its useless, was annoying me.

Sadly, for some of us thats pretty much true, and it takes some gentle nudging to recognise thats not the case for everyone. Just how our brains are wired.

[FuriousGeorge]

Sadly, for some of us thats pretty much true, and it takes some gentle nudging to recognise thats not the case for everyone. Just how our brains are wired.

Haha I was meant to edit that post so it read 'was annoying me...because I am a complete goob and clearly get annoyed about things that should not annoy me' but I forgot.

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

Now every time I read Arbor Gold I'm going to be on the hyper paranoid lookout for treachery. I always just assumed Arbor Gold was the Westerosi equivalent of Cristal or Dom Perignon so it made sense to use for celebratory or special occassions. So I guess the lesson is, whenever someone is celebrating, someone is getting fucked over.

[redviper9]

<snip>

Just saw this OP, and the thread is already pretty far along, but I still wanted to say: brava!

[Brynden Bloodraven Rivers]

I didn't see if you already talked of it, but Sansa drinks Arbor god just before Petyr tells her to become Alayne

[Tewks44]

If I'm not mistaken they're drinking Arbor Gold in the feast during the Battle of the Blackwater, which kind of reflects the whole situation with the nobles dining on fine food in the midst of a battle. They're lying to themselves.

[Elba the Intoner]

KOM, you might have missed it, but I did a post with all the hippocras mentions yesterday afternoon, here. I postulated that it might be associated with stupidity, or perhaps more accurately, hubris. Because its mentioned and drunk in association with both Cersei and Roose. The latter is why I'm leaning hubris, Roose isn't stupid, but he definitely is embued with great hubris.

Not only do both Cersei and Roose possess great hubris but they are both trying to usurp the kingship positions in their respective regions illegally with no claim.

[Light a wight tonight]

This is an old topic, and it's long, so my point may have been covered and I just missed it, but the wine Tyrion gave Cersei that potion in that had her in the privy for several days was an Arbor red. Noticed it in rereading Kings.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

This is an old topic, and it's long, so my point may have been covered and I just missed it, but the wine Tyrion gave Cersei that potion in that had her in the privy for several days was an Arbor red. Noticed it in rereading Kings.

Good catch!

And yeah the consensus seems to be Arbor Gold is lies/deceit and Arbor Red is poison.

[DireMaker]

OK, so i only got to the 5th page before i got tired of this bickering, maybe I can sum it up. As a guitarist, i spend alot of money on rigs, guitars, etc. If i know that buying a specific item is gonna piss off the wife, I take her out to a super nice dinner. ("often she asks what i did at that point) however, it works to soften the i got a 1600 dollar guitar it'll be here in the next couple of days. So, to turn this into a thought about the argument at hand, Nobility are the ones who play "the game" in this series of books, and then yes, we can certainly associate them with deceit. However if you "goody up" the one you wanna play, they are more oft than not gonna at least hear what you have to say, and if your "bribe" is good enough, hell, they will probably go along with it. So maaaybe we can agree that the two points are on the same knife? Nobility is ALWAYS playing a game and trying to subject others to do their whim. And a good way to show you mean business is to bring out the most delicious wine in the world? Kinda like if you wanna get laid you don't offer arbor mist when the chica has come back from the bar to your place, you bring out your Alonase (or whatever, i've been married for half a decade, I forget, my missy drinks Jack like a good american lol). MAybe that will help bring us all together so we can discuss the topic instead of arguing about if it does or doesn't meet a specific persons' outline of a clue given by the author?

** Just realized this is 13 pages long and have made a douche of myself. Aoplogies my friends......

[First of My Name]

I like this, and it makes a lot of sense. Props to everyone who noticed this.

[complexphoenix]

"14. Illyrio has 3 score casks of Arbor wine in his basement, among other vintages" you call that "ambiguous or a non-factor"? I call that blatant. Illyrio has done a ton of deceptions on a ton of different people, and the huge quantity of Arbor Gold in his basement is a symbol of that.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

"14. Illyrio has 3 score casks of Arbor wine in his basement, among other vintages" you call that "ambiguous or a non-factor"? I call that blatant. Illyrio has done a ton of deceptions on a ton of different people, and the huge quantity of Arbor Gold in his basement is a symbol of that.

I think part of the reason we were hesitant to use that example is because the Arbor Gold there is just one in a bunch of other wines. It's not just that he has Arbor Gold; he has that and several other types listed in the same sentence.

[Jon Flowers]

I was caught completely off-guard by the reimagining of Hizdahr's name. That was definitely worth a grin.

[Benjen of the Kingsguard]

Interesting. However, don't make 8 - 9 threads about this for no reason.

Cough-corn code-cough

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Interesting. However, don't make 8 - 9 threads about this for no reason.

Cough-corn code-cough

I wasn't aware that we had.

[Consigliere]

I'm not too sure about this one but here goes.

Cersei beckoned to her page for another cup of wine, a golden vintage from the Arbor, fruity and rich.

Cersei invites the high born ladies to Maegor's Holdfast under the pretext of protection when in fact she plan's to have Ser Ilyn kill them should Stannis take the city.

The queen took a flagon of sweet plum wine from a passing serving girl and filled Sansa’s cup.

Cersei grabs a flagon of another vintage just before she confesses to Sansa regarding Ser Ilyn's true purpose.