Lies and Arbor Gold: Well Look What We Found

[KOM]

lady m: Thanks! -- hubris? idk. maybe it works for Falyse? ... it is an odd assortment of characters there :)

[Tommens Cat]

I'm surprised this one hasn't come up:

In ACoK, the Hound to Sansa on the serpentine steps after her encounter with Dontos in the Godswood.

This is very ambiguous. On the one hand, the Hound claims to hate lies & liars. Yet, he has already covered for Sansa when she talked Joff into sparing Dontos, and now he's just about to deflect Boros' questions. Does this "true" wine represent the harsh truths he often forces her to confront, or does it indicate his having to compromise his own honesty in this place full of liars? A nice puzzle.

I like this example. Sour red and dark wines represent truth. Arbor gold (light/white wines) represent lies

[FuriousGeorge]

emphasis added. Just because I think those points are useful.

Is Hippocras working more for self-delusion and Arbor Gold is more transactional between parties? If so, is that how Arbor Gold is working in that scene with Taena and Cersei as opposed to just deception in general? How does alcohol work for the Hound? How does it work in ADWD when Illyrio is telling Tyrion to just kill himself instead of drowning slowly? Are there different markers/colors of wine for when Catelyn is getting Jaime drunk enough for a good interrogation? Is there something about the "high status" nature of Arbor Gold that works separately, or in addition to the alcohol content? Did people in your pre-post vetting squad ask these questions already, have these already been looked into, at least preliminarily?

The prestige associated with Arbor gold is a key part of what it symbolises, and it cannot be detached from other types of imagery that it conjures up. It is all bound up together. Alcohol also has a wider symbolic meaning throughout ASOIAF, from which it is also impossible to detach more specific symbolic meanings. I'm not saying all of this imagery is equally important all the time, but that certain meanings become more important in some contexts, and less in others. So it is probably impossible to link Arbor Gold to a specific type of 'deceitful transaction' because symbolism is never neatly constructed like that. It would also force a symbolic structure onto the text that would drive GRRM mad, if he felt that every time he wrote a scene he would have to check what type of imagery he needs to use in order for the structure to be adhered to.

That's a fine collection, but what purpose does it serve? It's not like we haven't known before that these characters act duplicitious. Should we, the next time we see a (new) character drinking it, wonder if he's up to something? It could be interesting if it's the case, OTOH it's not, uh, obvious enough for many people to catch, so if it has been George's purpose to introduce Arbor Gold as something what treacherous people consume, he hasn't done it properly, IMO.

No, that is categorically what you should not do. You should try and understand why GRRM would use that symbolism in the context of that scene.

[lady m]

lady m: Thanks! -- hubris? idk. maybe it works for Falyse? ... it is an odd assortment of characters there :)

Well, the Falyse mentions revolve around the dinner where Cersei convinces Ser Balmon to kill Bronn, which leads directly to Balmon's death. I remember the first time I read the passage thinking how absurd the notion was, and that Bronn extracted a confession from Balmon that he was working as Cersei's catspaw just adds to the shortsightedness of the endeavor.

Cersei's arrogance in this situation is similar to Lysa's thinking Bronn would be defeated due to him being a nobody and of low birth. Pride before the fall is kinda the definition of hubris. Which I think is very fitting with regard to all the Cersei mentions, and will likely end up being true with Roose.

ETA, I went back and checked the text, all five of the Falyse/hippocras related mentions are at that dinner where Cersei convinces Balman to kill Bronn.

ETA2, I'm editing my original hippocras post, the second Cersei related mention is where she reveals that Ser Balon has a secondary mission to delivering Ser Gregor's head to the Martells. This is of course the assassination of Trystane Martell, which Doran finds out about, and sends Ser Balon off to do his own bidding.

[Anook of the North]

Lady M, loved your list of Hippocras appearances.

When reading it the first thing that came to mind are the words "false friends", which the Bolton and Cersei scenes seem to support.

I got distracted by someone's mention of hippocras, which doesn't have nearly as many references. Because that's where I am in my kindle I started with ADWD and then searched the first four. It comes up first in ASOS, incidentally.

If it has an exegetical point then I think it could be stupidity or hubris, but I'm open to suggestions, because I'm not sure that's how I'd interpret Roose Bolton's preference for the drink.

This happens at the Dreadfort, when Roose is talking to Ramsay about where the Freys are and who of the Northern houses is on their side. It's a long conversation, so I'll just give the mention, and the rest of it can be found on page 424 of the Kindle edition.

"Forty wanes of foodstuffs. Casks of wine and hippocras, barrels f fresh-caught lampreys, a herd of goats, a hundred pigs, crates of crabs and oysters and a monstrous codfish...Lord Wyman likes to eat. You may have noticed."

ASOS:

"Elmar, the red for Ser Jaime, water for the Lady Brienne, and hippocras for myself." Bolton waved a hand at their escort...

At the Red Wedding, Roose:

He sipped hippocras in preference to wine or mead, and ate but little.

AFFC:

A man may prefer the taste of hippocras, yet I'd you set a tankard of ale before him he will quaff it quick enough. (Cersei thinking about men.)

Dornish red and Arbor gold, and a fine sweet hippocras from Highgarden. (This is where Cersei lets be known that Ser Balon will have a secondary mission outside of delivering Ser Gregor's head to the Martells.)

They had made a good start on the hippocras, Lady Falyse not only looks like a fish, she drinks like one she reflected...(This is when Cersei is trying to have Bronn killed, as are the next four.)

"Will you have another cup,of hippocras, Falyse? You were always so fond of it, I seem to recall."

Cersei filled the goblets with hippocras. "My friends...you are my friends I hope?

The rest was hippocras and buttered beets, hot-baked bread, herb-crusted pike, and ribs of wild boar. Cersei had become very fond of boar since Robert's death.

I could have hired a Faceless Man to kill Bronn for half of what I've spent on hippocras...

The last two have to do with Cersei reinstating the faith militant:

"Shall we broach a flagon of hippocras and drink to the fervor of the Warrior's Sons on our way home?"

"To the fervor if the Warrior's Sons and the brilliance if the Queen Regent. To Cersei, the First of Her Name!"

The hippocras was as sweet and savory as Cersei's triumph, and the queen's litter seemed almost to float back across the city.

Boltons are false friends to the Starks

Manderly is a false friend to the Boltons and Freys

Cersei is a false friend to ....... well, practically everyone

Taena is a false friend to cersei

Cersei sends Sir Balon on a mission of 'friendship' (taking the Martells Sir G's head) but as she has other motives one coud say that its a false gesture of friendship.

I'll have to look up other refs to Hippocras to solidify the arguement, but what do you think?

[corbon]

Corbon, we haven't been claiming this whatsoever. I've said repeatedly that we're not claiming deceit only happens in the midst of Arbor Gold. It's these sorts of comments are that very frustrating, because I've spoken to this several times now, and to claim that's my position is starting to feel like strawmanning.

Sorry, I shortcut that a little too hard ('in effect'), because my focus was on pointing out that I was not saying that, in fact questioning it.

However, its a difficulty for me that I can't really grasp a significant difference between that and what you claim you are saying. Sorry, I'm more of a numbers guy than a word/symbolism guy, my brain just doesn't think like that, which is why despite my great respect for the group who does this sort of stuff, and the reread angles threads etc, I don't normally contribute.

See below.

No, that is categorically what you should not do. You should try and understand why GRRM would use that symbolism in the context of that scene.

I don't get it. :huh:

What is the difference between seeing Arbor Gold and assuming duplicity etc, and seeing Arbor Gold and immediately wondering why GRRM is using that in the scene, when apparently we've established an enormous connection between Arbor Gold and duplicity etc.

"Categorically don't do the first, definitely do do the second". But they look the same to me?

[jarl the climber]

Hippocras seems really ambivalent. Roose refused to offer any to either Breinne or Jaimie at their dinner. His choice of this drink set him apart form the other guest at the RW in Cats eyes, who also found his smell somewhat repugnant. Cersei offered this drink to Falsye and her husband because she knew that they prefered it. I suppose she developed a taste for it and happened to have some on hand for her ride back to the Red Keep. The fact that Manderly would bring some hippocras seems delibrate as he probaly knows that Roose is fond of it. Lady Dustin also notes that Roose waits for Manderly to drink the wine from a given cask before he will himself. Its appearance are infrequent,

So at Harrnehal Roose reserves the hippocras for himself alone, it is not meant to be shared, even with his highborn guests. I also think its likely that the hippocras that Roose drank at the RW was out of his own stock, he refused to drink what the others were served. Cersei shares her hippocras with these Stokeworths yet she later ponders whether it was worth the cost. Perhaps Roose drinks Manderlys hippocras but not until he sees that Manderly has drinken it himself and only from the same flagon or barrel as he did. Cerseis choice of this drink in the ride with Tanea is the one time that there is no self reflection on the cost or the consequences. Maybe some other people can sort this out better than me but there seems to be something deeper there than false freind. Maybe because its so strongly associated with Roose,IDK.

[lady m]

I'll have to look up other refs to Hippocras to solidify the arguement, but what do you think?

Anook, those are all the hippocras mentions across all the books. I think your way of thinking has some potential, false friendship could be right. Cersei is seeking to use those involved to her own ends, Roose is talking about his loyalty to Robb who he ends up killing.

Maybe it's that wines - I'd say types, not all wine - perhaps do notate deception, and the types designate what kind of deception is involved.

Jarl, as I've said, I'm open to other interpretations. I'm curious, now that all the hippocras mentions are listed what Ragnorak or bumps thinks.

[FuriousGeorge]

Sorry, I shortcut that a little too hard ('in effect'), because my focus was on pointing out that I was not saying that, in fact questioning it.

However, its a difficulty for me that I can't really grasp a significant difference between that and what you claim you are saying. Sorry, I'm more of a numbers guy than a word/symbolism guy, my brain just doesn't think like that, which is why despite my great respect for the group who does this sort of stuff, and the reread angles threads etc, I don't normally contribute.

See below.

I don't get it. :huh:

What is the difference between seeing Arbor Gold and assuming duplicity etc, and seeing Arbor Gold and immediately wondering why GRRM is using that in the scene, when apparently we've established an enormous connection between Arbor Gold and duplicity etc.

"Categorically don't do the first, definitely do do the second". But they look the same to me?

Well I don't think OP+associates (couldn't think of a better way to say it) agree with me because they have repeatedly said that it can be used as a signal or clue. But basically the meaning of a symbol is never static or fixed, it is always contingent on the context in which it is being used. I would imagine the connection between Arbor Gold and falsehood is more nuanced that it simply being a case of 'this is arbor gold, so I'm deceiving you'. If you reduce the connection to Arbor Gold = deceit then the symbolism doesn't make sense in scenes like the one where Varys trades a child for Arbor Gold, as that would suggest Varys is trading deceit for a child. If you think that the presence of Arbor gold in a scene automatically means there is something deceptive going on, then the scene where Cersei is musing about Varys and Tyrion being on a ship drinking Arbor Gold doesn't make sense. So to answer your question about what is the difference between assuming deception and thinking about why GRRM would choose to use that symbolism, the former, I think, would be you imposing meaning on the text, whereas the latter is trying to understand the meaning of the text.

[bbstark]

ok, really not trying to move goal-posts here, just a big list of questions. bbstark had a decent point about 'simple wines' perhaps working differently. -- and i'm sure the OP team already put work into this.

Thanks KOM, but my point wasn't just that simple wine might work differently (although yes, I did claim that as well) , but that in this particular scene, Martin makes it very explicit that the pouring of the wine is a pivotal moment for Mormont who has to give the information, and Jon who will receive it and have to make a decision. The choice of language "when the cups were filled" [he'd have to tell the truth] puts the emphasis on the action of pouring, and it acts like a ticking clock, or starter pistol.

Yet for this grand pivotal moment the wine is simple. I think this is foreshadowing and symbolism of an unsophisticated, yet emotionally difficult choice.

There is also dread around the action of pouring+consuming it; he would prefer NOT to be the messanger, but he does his duty, and in the end so does Jon.

Obviously not *all* cases of wine are meaningful, but as the ladies that drive this thread have illuminated, depending on who pours the wine, who drinks the wine and of the particular vintage, the action of pouring/consuming wine *can* be some pretty obvious symbolism.

Lady M, I will read your hippocras post, I'm very curious about it now.

[corbon]

the former, I think, would be you imposing meaning on the text, whereas the latter is trying to understand the meaning of the text.

See, in the shorthand of typing-speak, the former is more or less the latter there, to me. Assuming there is duplicity* isn't 'imposing meaning on the text, to me, in shorthand, but means guessing that there is probably some duplicity* going on an trying to figure out what it might be. Hence, its still the same thing, to me.

duplicity* is more shorthand for "yes yes, I get the nuances etc stuff, but I can't be bothered formulating an accurate description and writing all that out each time"

gah, imperfect media!

[FuriousGeorge]

See, in the shorthand of typing-speak, the former is more or less the latter there, to me. Assuming there is duplicity* isn't 'imposing meaning on the text, to me, in shorthand, but means guessing that there is probably some duplicity* going on an trying to figure out what it might be. Hence, its still the same thing, to me.

duplicity* is more shorthand for "yes yes, I get the nuances etc stuff, but I can't be bothered formulating an accurate description and writing all that out each time"

gah, imperfect media!

I think the first one assumes that Arbor Gold has a fixed symbolism that can readily be applied to any and every passage where it is mentioned, whereas the second one acknowledges that Arbor Gold can have a multitude of meanings to do with prestige /nobility /deceit/ selfdeception/ sociability /pride /wealth etc etc.

[KOM]

the idea of Hippocras as "false friend" seems very similar to Arbor Gold as deception, imo. LF scenes, Taena, Manderly, all use the shared consumption of Arbor Gold to solidify relationships. But maybe that's too much trying to find a "fixed symbolism" :)

re: Stokeworth and Hippocras, if Stokeworth is just ignored as innocent bystander, bc the scene is really about Cersei, then that works for the hubris angle.

and imo, Roose is drinking hippocras stand apart. he's not "sharing" anything with anybody (Harrenhall scene, Twins too??). And also the wine is probably there for Jaime bc he's a "guest" and water for Brienne bc she's going in the bear pit, or whatever. Roose may not know specifically what bad things are to happen to her, but he's not extending any friendship/protection towards her.

[lojzelote]

No, that is categorically what you should not do. You should try and understand why GRRM would use that symbolism in the context of that scene.

I must be terribly thick because I have no idea for what other reason George would have put it in. So far the things generally identified as symbolism (e.g., blue roses, the direwolf mother&the stag) have been used as clues/hints.

So unless Arbor Gold proves to be a clue about some character's intentions in future, the whole thing basically shrinks to "some characters while being deceitful sometimes drink Arbor Gold". That's a nice observation, but what of it? What's the message if not that people who happen to drink it are not to be trusted?

[FuriousGeorge]

I must be terribly thick because I have no idea for what other reason George would have put it in. So far the things generally identified as symbolism (e.g., blue roses, the direwolf mother&the stag) have been used as clues/hints.

So unless Arbor Gold proves to be a clue about some character's intentions in future, the whole thing basically shrinks to "some characters while being deceitful sometimes drink Arbor Gold". That's a nice observation, but what of it? What's the message if not that people who happen to drink it are not to be trusted?

I don't know if you are terribly thick or not but you certainly have an extremely crude understanding of symbolism and how it works in literature.

[butterbumps!]

Well I don't think OP+associates (couldn't think of a better way to say it) agree with me because they have repeatedly said that it can be used as a signal or clue. But basically the meaning of a symbol is never static or fixed, it is always contingent on the context in which it is being used. I would imagine the connection between Arbor Gold and falsehood is more nuanced that it simply being a case of 'this is arbor gold, so I'm deceiving you'. If you reduce the connection to Arbor Gold = deceit then the symbolism doesn't make sense in scenes like the one where Varys trades a child for Arbor Gold, as that would suggest Varys is trading deceit for a child. If you think that the presence of Arbor gold in a scene automatically means there is something deceptive going on, then the scene where Cersei is musing about Varys and Tyrion being on a ship drinking Arbor Gold doesn't make sense. So to answer your question about what is the difference between assuming deception and thinking about why GRRM would choose to use that symbolism, the former, I think, would be you imposing meaning on the text, whereas the latter is trying to understand the meaning of the text.

Actually, I do agree with you, but I think that in addition to your other explications, that symbols can have predictive value sometimes, or at least, to operate as clues sometimes provided the context speaks to this as well.

I don't think that "Arbor Gold = deceit" as a reductive equation. I strongly agree with your assertions about symbolism's innate fluidity and need for contextual adjacencies in order to glean the value of the symbol.

For example, I do believe that Martin has loaded something into Varys' story of the Aegon swap by specifying Arbor Gold, but it's not simply the mention of Arbor Gold that's important. The context of "Pisswater Alley," "Arbor Gold" and how badly Jon Con and Aegon want to believe this story mutually reinforce the notion that this swap story is probably too good to be true.

I think there's an argument for predictive potential wrt the Sansa-LF arc as well, though again, it's not to be reduced to something like "Sansa repeats 'lies and Arbor Gold' and is therefore tricking LF," but rather part of a constellation of other clues that, when taken together, bolsters analysis of the situation.

[Ragnorak]

Actually I think the quote you provided strengthens your point, since Mormont specifically says "I won't lie to you" and even more profoundly, he doesn't lie. Further, Mormont is about to tell Jon something that could question his loyalty to the NW, and possibly result in Jon deceiving his vows. Now obviously drinking wine marks a lot of pivotal moments in the book; GRRM tells us this literally;

Yeah, this is pivotal. The act of sharing the wine, and sharing the information marks an important crossroad between his oath, and duplicity for Jon. I don't think you could argue that the wine *caused* Jon to choose his oath over desertion.... I'm not certain where this idea comes from to be honest.

However we have established that a particular vintage, the two-faced Gold Arbour, marks the presence of deceit and ulterior motives, so it's not completely ludicrous to say that the absence of this double entendre foreshadows honest intentions. The wine in this chapter (I've checked) is completely simple, unnamed, unassuming. It's just good old, simple wine, shared with the good old, simple truth. Like the holy grail; the cup you're looking for is not golden, bejeweled or majestic, it's a simple cup, for a simple man (Yes, I'm referencing Indiana Jones here, very sophisticated, I know).

Of all the colors to describe the wine that goes hand in hand with filthy lies, Martin chose Gold. It's the way he describes most Lannisters, (golden haired, golden locks, Tywin shits gold) As butterbumps pointed out, up-thread, this is a recurring theme. Gold shoud be handled with caution, for while it has an undeniable, objective value, the person holding it might not necessarily. Thematically, it fits brilliantly.

bbstark, this is really nice. Love it.

Again, I have to disagree. IMO, the scene is painfully honest in the way it depicts Tyrion struggling with his conflicting emotions. Even though the scene is told from Sansa's POV, it is apparent from his statements that Tyrion knows full well that Sansa is not attracted to him; at no point does he try to "deceive" himself into believing otherwise. It is also apparent from Tyrion's statements that he had misgivings about going through with consummating the marriage because he knew Sansa was not attracted to him.

But, then again, it wouldn't be the first time that I was wrong about something. :drunk:

I think our difference here is on the cosmic take of Tyrion. My take on ASOS is that it is one long period of deception for Tyrion until he finally gets his harsh truth from Jaime at the end. We did a Tyrion reread and the ASOS section starts here if you have any interest. This particular post by brashcandy does an excellent job of looking at Tyrion's agreeing to this marriage in the first place. If one takes Tyrion's initial reaction to the idea of the marriage to Sansa (singularly cruel even for the man who ordered him to participate in the gang rape of his own wife) it takes a great deal of deception for Tyrion to even be in his current mindset. He's had weeks to digest this marriage concept and Sansa was ambushed with it just hours before this scene. The more you factor in Sansa's perspective here the more Tyrion's lies to himself become apparent. Sure he's unattractive but the whole "your family murdered my father" thing isn't exactly a non-factor here. His family is still actively trying to kill her brother-- the same brother whose seat in Winterfell he married her to claim.

[UVA]

Of all the colors to describe the wine that goes hand in hand with filthy lies, Martin chose Gold.

Yea, I see this very similar to the meaning and usage of the color of white in Moby Dick. The gold color here seems to denote an object of desirably high value, where the allurement covers nothing but the deceit. butterbumps!' comment above about 'Pisswater Bend' also brings to mind the dual nature of this specific color insofar as piss is usually gold in color.

[lojzelote]

I don't know if you are terribly thick or not but you certainly have an extremely crude understanding of symbolism and how it works in literature.

Maybe. I am simply asking what is it good for if it's true. Also, not many people (two or three?) picked up on that after years since the publishing and and several re-reads, which tells me it's not very poignant and makes me doubt if it was intended at all.

I wonder, is vine a conventional symbol for something in RL or is it connected with a widely known myth/legend where it played part in nefarious practices? I searched through the internet for a "vine" and a "golden vine", and Google says it was mostly used to represent temporal blessing, growth, sacred/religious knowledge, and the Jewish nation, but I haven't found any connection to treachery and deceit. I am asking because some of the other symbols GRRM uses have a meaning in RL (e.g., blue roses, pomegranates), so it could be helpful if vine was backed up by RL, too.

[Maxpey]

bbstark, this is really nice. Love it.

I think our difference here is on the cosmic take of Tyrion. My take on ASOS is that it is one long period of deception for Tyrion until he finally gets his harsh truth from Jaime at the end. We did a Tyrion reread and the ASOS section starts here if you have any interest. This particular post by brashcandy does an excellent job of looking at Tyrion's agreeing to this marriage in the first place. If one takes Tyrion's initial reaction to the idea of the marriage to Sansa (singularly cruel even for the man who ordered him to participate in the gang rape of his own wife) it takes a great deal of deception for Tyrion to even be in his current mindset. He's had weeks to digest this marriage concept and Sansa was ambushed with it just hours before this scene. The more you factor in Sansa's perspective here the more Tyrion's lies to himself become apparent. Sure he's unattractive but the whole "your family murdered my father" thing isn't exactly a non-factor here. His family is still actively trying to kill her brother-- the same brother whose seat in Winterfell he married her to claim.

Thanks for providing those links. I am have skimmed a few and, as usual, they are highly informative. While I would certainly agree that Tyrion has moments where he "deceives" himself throughout SOS, I still view his exchange with Sansa almost as a moment of clarity for him. Throughout the scene, we observe that he seems to be looking at himself through Sansa's eyes, and he understands why she doesn't want to be with him. Again, just my take on this particular scene.