Lies and Arbor Gold: Well Look What We Found

[The Knight of Grey Garden]

Very impressive find !

The logic behind this IMO, is the fact that the nobility use the Arbord Gold (probably a great, easy to drink alcohol) to get drunk or at least put at ease the peoples which make them even easier to manipulate or to tell just BS them, (like some guys on girls with shooters and drinks in bars ;) ) !

[purrl1]

I'm surprised this one hasn't come up:

Do you like wine, little bird? True wine? A flagon of sour red, dark as blood, all a man needs. Or a woman.

In ACoK, the Hound to Sansa on the serpentine steps after her encounter with Dontos in the Godswood.

This is very ambiguous. On the one hand, the Hound claims to hate lies & liars. Yet, he has already covered for Sansa when she talked Joff into sparing Dontos, and now he's just about to deflect Boros' questions. Does this "true" wine represent the harsh truths he often forces her to confront, or does it indicate his having to compromise his own honesty in this place full of liars? A nice puzzle.

[butterbumps!]

Just for fun, and because I have no life, I tried to make a similar list for "wine". Not complete, of course, because I'm also lazy. Just a fragment. So, I opened ACOK and started looking for wine.

Out of the fifteen first scenes where that beverage appears or at least is mentioned, duplicity, lies, treachery are absent from three. The first appearance is Maester Cressen trying to poison Melisandre with the strangler in the prologue, then it's the Dontos situation, where Joffrey is played by Sansa with unexpected help from the Hound.

This is your only real case for an omission of Arbor wine involved in something duplicitous from the list you created. How is Sansa using wine to deceive Joffrey, though? I can sort of see this, but I think it's rather weak.

Further, there's dialogue between Cersei and Tyrion, when she said she'd prefer him on the field of battle, and Tyrion answers he'd rather hold a goblet than a battleaxe. The next mention of wine is... the strongwine that helped Bob end his life. The next one - Varys, Tyrion and Shae, duplicity galore.

The strongwine here was literally the murder weapon. Arbor Gold wouldn't really suffice. EXCEPTION

The next mention is Lord Hoster's illness and maesters giving him dreamwine. This one seems to be an exception.

EXCEPTION plus, it's dreamwine.

Then we have Tyrion and Janos, two drinking buddies (drinking explicitly Dornish wine, not Arbor). 'Nuff said.

No, it's not "Nuff Said." First, we already mentioned this one. Secondly, Tyrion isn't telling him lies or seducing him. He's actually telling him pretty boldly that he's a jerk and getting canned, with no attempt to sweeten it. EXCEPTION

Varys appears again and gives the acting Hand a report of what's going on in the city. A wineseller's son is mentioned - funny enough, he cheated at dice and got caught. Another report - nobles joking about needing three cups to drink King's health. Probably should count that one, as well, as I have a hard time believing that Varys wasn't playing Tyrion, or testing him, or a mix of both.

Why are you bringing up a wineseller's son mention? That's not the same as giving someone a certain type of wine. Then, wrt the toast, the nobles aren't lying, but telling a joke. EXCEPTION, EXCEPTION

The vessel that carried Theon Greyjoy to Pyke carried, among other things, wine. The way Theon seduced and dropped the captain's daughter was hardly upstanding. Not counting this one as exception.

Seriously? If this were a case where Theon told her lies over wine, I'd see you point, but Theon wasn't really lying here. He was pretty forward about dumping her. EXCEPTION

Another appearance of wine, this time in Theon's memory, about some innocent dialogue between him and his big brother. Second exception.

EXCEPTION

Dany's khalasar is in dire needs of food and water, wine gave out first. Third exception.

EXCEPTION

Jorah's account of his ill-fated marriage. Started with Jorah drunk on glory and wine, ended with him a slave trader and a criminal on the run, and a cuckold to boot.

How is this deception? It looks like the wine gave him false bravado, but I don't see him using the wine to doublecross someone. EXCEPTION

Next: Cersei is vivid because of Stannis' vile "lies" about her and demands that Tyrion somehow unring that bell. He phlegmatically answers "...the wine is spilled...". We're talking here about Cersei keeping her infidelity under the rug. A few paragraphs later, the lie about Patchface and Shireen is invented. Sweet Cersei is suddenly elated: "Stannis will be laughed at in every winesink this side of the narrow sea".

I don't understand. The wine isn't literal here. The phrase is "the wine has spilled," i.e. "the horse is out of the barn." How are you counting this? EXCEPTION

GRAND TALLY: out of 15, ONE (maybe 1.5 ) shows wine being used deceitfully (to seduce someone into being deceived).

[Lady of Long Lake]

No ideas about the potential symbolism yet but I grabbed all the spiced wine references I could find as well.

“I must be excused,” he said with the last of his dignity. He whirled and bolted before they could see him cry. He must have drunk more wine than he had realized. His feet got tangled under him as he tried to leave, and he lurched sideways into a serving girl and sent a flagon of spiced wine crashing to the floor. Laughter boomed all around him, and Jon felt hot tears on his cheeks. Someone tried to steady him. He wrenched free of their grip and ran, half-blind, for the door. Ghost followed close at his heels, out into the night.

“Yes, my lord.” Jon built a cookfire, claimed a small cask of Mormont’s favorite robust red from stores, and poured it into a kettle. He hung the kettle above the flames while he gathered the rest of his ingredients. The Old Bear was particular about his hot spiced wine. So much cinnamon and so much nutmeg and so much honey, not a drop more. Raisins and nuts and dried berries, but no lemon, that was the rankest sort of southron heresy—which was queer, since he always took lemon in his morning beer. The drink must be hot to warm a man properly, the Lord Commander insisted, but the wine must never be allowed to come to a boil. Jon kept a careful eye on the kettle.

The wind was blowing briskly when he left. By morning, frost would cover the ground, and the tent ropes would be stiff and frozen. A few fingers of spiced wine sloshed in the bottom of the kettle. Jon fed fresh wood to the fire and put the kettle over the flames to reheat. He flexed his fingers as he waited, squeezing and spreading until the hand tingled. The first watch had taken up their stations around the perimeter of the camp. Torches flickered all along the ringwall. The night was moonless, but a thousand stars shone overhead.

“Four brothers dead. A dozen wounded. A third as many as the foe. And we took captives. One died quickly from his wounds, but the other lived long enough to be questioned.”

“Best talk of this inside. Jon will fetch you a horn of ale. Or would you prefer hot spiced wine?”

“Boiled water will suffice. An egg and a bite of bacon.”

“As you wish.” Mormont lifted the flap of the tent and Qhorin Halfhand stooped and stepped through.

But when she cracked the first egg and found a bloody half-formed chick inside, her stomach roiled. “Take this away and bring me hot spiced wine,” she told Senelle. The chill in the air was settling in her bones, and she had a long nasty day ahead of her.

Her mouth tightened. She had been drinking hot spiced wine and smelled of nutmeg. “You presume to dicker with me? Need I remind you, you are sworn to obey.”

Jon watched her stride away. She is wrong. She must be wrong. Greyscale is not so deadly as she claims, not in children.

Ghost was gone again. The sun was low in the west. A cup of hot spiced wine would serve me well just now. Two cups would serve me even better. But that would have to wait. He had foes to face. Foes of the worst sort: brothers.

Before her walk she would have flaunted her baldness beneath a golden crown. “Come, sit,” she said. “Will you have wine?”

“A cup.” He sat, still wary.

A freckled novice filled their cups with hot spiced wine. “Tommen tells me that Lord Tyrell intends to rebuild the Tower of the Hand,” Cersei said.

Ser Kevan nodded. “The new tower will be twice as tall as the one you burned, he says.”

Cersei gave a throaty laugh. “Long lances, tall towers … is Lord Tyrell hinting at something?”

Even in Jon's last chapter in ADWD, mulled wine is mentioned. LC Mormont loved it but the tradition continued after his demise. I find that interesting because spiced wine/mulled wine is very sweet because of the added honey and raisins. Dany's HOTU vision saw the blue rose growing from a chink of ice and it filled the air with sweetness. I think Jon= sweetness= mulled/spiced wine.

[KOM]

Good work by Apple Martini, Butterbumps, Mladen, etc. -- Especially laying out the 20 quotes (so others don't have to look them up) is very useful and informative.

For me, the repeated use of the phrase "lies and Arbor Gold" in the LF/Sansa scenes is generally enough for me. The use in the Wyman scene, where the wine 'washes down the lie' is also fitting. Similar usage also occurs by Roose: Power taste best when sweetened by courtesy - Roose Bolton.

It may also be worth looking at how Arbor Gold fits into the transaction. Is the person drinking it being lied to? (LD). Or is the person trading it for itself? The guy trading his kid to Varys (which story itself might be a lie, who knows), isn't being lied to, he's not even aware of the lie Varys will later tell. And Illyrio/Tyrion, it may just be a marker for Illyrio's wealth. It was kept in the basement after all, and most of the wine Tyrion was drinking for "self-deception" likely wasn' all Arbor Gold, as he was likely drinking anything he could get his hands on during those ocean voyages. But it's use during the two poisoning scenes (AGOT/Dany and with the honeyed locusts) is interesting.

It's definitely something to look forward to going forward.

Part of my hestition with accepting something like this is that deception happens "literally on every page"--ok exaggeration, but deception in this series is all over the place, from straight lies, to schemes, to secret identities, to just lies from ignorance. Linking things to deception in general should raise many false positives, so I think other readers' resistance to this theory is a natural reaction.

Also, given that the characters are all kings, queens, lords paramount, etc, drinking high quality wines is probably to be expected.

So, this theory received a lot of resistance, but I think it's with reason. Good job to the team.

[Stormkith]

Wow, this is such a reach. Here's the problem with this theory: the series revolves around lies, deceit, treachery, and plotting. It happens without cease through A Song of Ice and Fire. From the very first chapter of A Game of Thrones all the way until the last chapter of A Dance with Dragons, it is absolutely chock full of lies and manipulation. So when you start comparing mundane occurrences throughout the books to the instances of treachery or deceit, why would you be even remotely surprised that they match up pretty frequently? Hell, you could make the same case for mentions of the privy, or fools, or any number of things that have no real meaning other than at face value.

I think you're hoping to find some kind of hidden connection that just isn't there.

[butterbumps!]

Wow, this is such a reach. Here's the problem with this theory: the series revolves around lies, deceit, treachery, and plotting. It happens without cease through A Song of Ice and Fire. From the very first chapter of A Game of Thrones all the way until the last chapter of A Dance with Dragons, it is absolutely chock full of lies and manipulation. So when you start comparing mundane occurrences throughout the books to the instances of treachery or deceit, why would you be even remotely surprised that they match up pretty frequently? Hell, you could make the same case for mentions of the privy, or fools, or any number of things that have no real meaning other than at face value.

I think you're hoping to find some kind of hidden connection that just isn't there.

lol, you've totally convinced me

(fyi, fools do serve as an ongoing motif in the series, and shit/ honor/ Lannisters is actually a recurring theme)

[Ragnorak]

Wow, this is such a reach. Here's the problem with this theory: the series revolves around lies, deceit, treachery, and plotting. It happens without cease through A Song of Ice and Fire. From the very first chapter of A Game of Thrones all the way until the last chapter of A Dance with Dragons, it is absolutely chock full of lies and manipulation. So when you start comparing mundane occurrences throughout the books to the instances of treachery or deceit, why would you be even remotely surprised that they match up pretty frequently? Hell, you could make the same case for mentions of the privy, or fools, or any number of things that have no real meaning other than at face value.

I think you're hoping to find some kind of hidden connection that just isn't there.

So in the Jon reread we're up to Jon VII (GoT) and there happens to be wine.

He was seated by the window, reading a letter. “Bring me a cup of wine, and pour one for yourself.”

“For myself, my lord?”

Mormont lifted his eyes from the letter to stare at Jon. There was pity in that look; he could taste it. “You heard me.”

Jon poured with exaggerated care, vaguely aware that he was drawing out the act. When the cups were filled, he would have no choice but to face whatever was in that letter. Yet all too soon, they were filled. “Sit, boy,” Mormont commanded him. “Drink.”

Jon remained standing. “It’s my father, isn’t it?”

The Old Bear tapped the letter with a finger. “Your father and the king,” he rumbled. “I won’t lie to you, it’s grievous news. I never thought to see another king, not at my age, with Robert half my years and strong as a bull.” He took a gulp of wine. “They say the king loved to hunt. The things we love destroy us every time, lad.

But there isn't any treachery or deceit or plotting and it is just wine without further information. There are plenty of shared meals in the series among friends who are not lying to each other. Cat and Brienne sit down and eat together for example and there's no Arbor gold there. So if deceit is this dominant theme you portray there should be deceit at every appearance of wine regardless of the vintage and that doesn't seem to be the case. There is no such place as the Arbor. Martin made it up and he made up a wine named Arbor gold too. Martin probably doesn't throw darts at a beverage board to decide what wine gets served where. This is a book written with symbolism by intent.

[Stormkith]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation_does_not_imply_causation

18 out of 20 mentions of Arbor gold (which I think is a stretch, it's more 9 or 10 out of 20, and some of those are repeated mentions in the same scene) means that the symbolism doesn't always correlate to begin with. In a series that includes a great deal of deceit (far, far more than the 20 mentions of Arbor gold), it's bound to happen that wine is often consumed during some of these interactions. And since so much of the series is about the wealthy and powerful figures of Westeros and Essos, it's not going to be that uncommon for them to be drinking some of the finest wine in the world.

So if deceit is this dominant theme you portray there should be deceit at every appearance of wine regardless of the vintage and that doesn't seem to be the case. There is no such place as the Arbor. Martin made it up and he made up a wine named Arbor gold too. Martin probably doesn't throw darts at a beverage board to decide what wine gets served where. This is a book written with symbolism by intent.

You're misunderstanding my point: I'm saying that deceit is a common theme throughout the book. Common enough that you'll find it coupled with a number of things, and sometimes those things will repeat (as in the case of Arbor gold). Unfortunately, it doesn't repeat enough to warrant calling Arbor gold a "symbol" of deceit.

[Ragnorak]

...

You're misunderstanding my point: I'm saying that deceit is a common theme throughout the book. Common enough that you'll find it coupled with a number of things, and sometimes those things will repeat (as in the case of Arbor gold). Unfortunately, it doesn't repeat enough to warrant calling Arbor gold a "symbol" of deceit.

And your evidence for this is .... Wikipedia and not citations from the books. Might you have an example, from say the text and not Wikipedia, that specifically backs up your assertion? This is a work of literature from an author who is on record stating that he deliberately engages in such symbolism-- not a parapsychology discussion trying to come up with psychic causality proofs out of coincidences. There are no coincidences in this series. The author wrote every word quite intentionally.

[Florina Laufeyson]

And your evidence for this is .... Wikipedia and not citations from the books. Might you have an example, from say the text and not Wikipedia, that specifically backs up your assertion? This is a work of literature from an author who is on record stating that he deliberately engages in such symbolism-- not a parapsychology discussion trying to come up with psychic causality proofs out of coincidences. There are no coincidences in this series. The author wrote every word quite intentionally.

This.

The theory is that Arbor Gold wine symbolizes deceit within those who offer it. Just how ravens symbolize warnings, fire symbolizes power and ultimately destruction, etc. This one may not be as obvious but i think its fair to consider it. GRRM is a man who knows perfectly well how to work in symbolism and literary devices. He makes it an art form.

[butterbumps!]

So.

No one is claiming that deceit ONLY happens in the presence of Arbor Gold, that there are no other symbols of deceit, or that there is necessarily a "causality."

Symbols operate in literature through association-- not causation or correlation, in terms of their technical meanings.

Arbor Gold has a strong association with lies, deceit and manipulative seduction. This truly cannot be ignored. It's presence wrt Taena, Aegon's swap, Manderley's pies and all of LF-Sansa's explications of it are honestly strong enough to conclude that this is a purposeful symbol in a literary work.

This isn't a math problem or a scientific hypothesis. It's literature. At the bare minimum, these 4 references are instances of pretty obvious deceit, and a specific sort of deceit at that (honeyed lies). The association with Arbor Gold is pretty clearly a purposeful theme.

[lady m]

You're misunderstanding my point: I'm saying that deceit is a common theme throughout the book. Common enough that you'll find it coupled with a number of things, and sometimes those things will repeat (as in the case of Arbor gold). Unfortunately, it doesn't repeat enough to warrant calling Arbor gold a "symbol" of deceit.

If what you're saying is true then why would literary symbolism even exist? Literature of any sort is a constructed narrative which deals with both plots and themes - Deceit, heroism, love, poverty, etc., and yet within those worlds the authors choose to use devices that highlight and string together certain things. Like boar being linked with regime change, or peaches with death. There's a lot of death in the books as well, why have something else symbolize it? Same with deceit and the others themes brought to light by the various types of wine through the story.

[Stormkith]

No one is claiming that deceit ONLY happens in the presence of Arbor Gold, that there are no other symbols of deceit, or that there is necessarily a "causality."

If Arbor gold is indeed a symbol of deceit, then it should be mentioned only, or nearly only, when deceit is occurring. I would venture that in most instances that it is mentioned (especially if you discount multiple mentions in the same scene), it is NOT being associated with deceit. And in others (such as that with Tyrion and Sansa after their wedding), the correlation fails because the deceit failed, at least according to one poster's theory regarding the symbolism.

When I say that deceit is a prevalent theme throughout the series, I don't mean to say that it should always be coupled with a mention of Arbor gold if that is indeed the symbolism. I'm saying instead that deceit happens so frequently in the series that to try to place symbolism on any one thing that is mentioned, even more than once, in conjunction in it is an example of correlation not implying causation. Logically speaking, most if not all mentions of Arbor gold should be in conjunction with deceit if it's meant to be a symbol of such. It doesn't.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

If Arbor gold is indeed a symbol of deceit, then it should be mentioned only, or nearly only, when deceit is occurring.

I'm ... pretty sure this is where the 18/20 thing comes in.

[Ser Leftwich]

In just going over the a few of the 20 situations, sometimes Arbor Gold is actually consumed, while others it is only referenced. Might be worth parsing the examples for if drank or not.

And I have to agree, this is not analyzing statistical data for patterns, this is literature.

[Stormkith]

I'm ... pretty sure this is where the 18/20 thing comes in.

Eh, I disagree, again, that it's 18/20. It's potentially half, but less if you discount multiple mentions all in one scene.

[butterbumps!]

If Arbor gold is indeed a symbol of deceit, then it should be mentioned only, or nearly only, when deceit is occurring. I would venture that in most instances that it is mentioned (especially if you discount multiple mentions in the same scene), it is NOT being associated with deceit. And in others (such as that with Tyrion and Sansa after their wedding), the correlation fails because the deceit failed, at least according to one poster's theory regarding the symbolism.

So, Sansa wasn't having secret meeting with Dontos, deceiving the Lannisters under their noses? Was Tyrion not ruing the fact that Sansa wouldn't give him sweet lies to ease his conscience here?

We counted the number of mentions because a poster kept focusing on the literal number of times it's mentioned as a way to turn this into a mathematical formula. If you prefer we can go back to counting scenes. The association is still strong enough to hold.

When I say that deceit is a prevalent theme throughout the series, I don't mean to say that it should always be coupled with a mention of Arbor gold if that is indeed the symbolism. I'm saying instead that deceit happens so frequently in the series that to try to place symbolism on any one thing that is mentioned, even more than once, in conjunction in it is an example of correlation not implying causation. Logically speaking, most if not all mentions of Arbor gold should be in conjunction with deceit if it's meant to be a symbol of such. It doesn't.

First, causation and correlation don't apply to literary symbolism.

Secondly, your conclusion is wrong. Nearly all of the references to Arbor Gold occur in the context of a seductive deceit. I don't understand how you don't see this.

[corbon]

Then again, i suppose one could argue that there is ALWAYS a deception going on to some extent. But even then, deception and wine are common in the Game of Thrones.

This. How often is there no deception going on in noble interactions (especially outside the North, which seems to have a high proportion (but not complete) of straitshooters), period?

Is 18/20 a meaningful statistic if 90% of all noble interactions we see contain deception in some form or other anyway?

[jarl the climber]

I can not remember, is Hizadar drinking Arbor Gold or trying to when Barristan shows up to arrest him?