Lies and Arbor Gold: Well Look What We Found

[The Sleeper]

I think it fits into the greater theme of opulence being used for concealing darker purposes. As the Tattered Prince told Quentyn, poisoners invariably use the most apetizing dishes. It makes sense to use the finest wine when you are trying ot butter up someone.

More than that it's not a random item that Maritn left for us to make the connection. In Sansa's chapters he is using Arbor gold within that context in an in-story staged set up, establishing the connection between the wine and deception/manipulation. Though, it's not like he is under any obligation to use it again, it is definitely something worth looking out for.

Good catch.

[Not a kneeler]

18 out of 20 is good enough for me. Nice catch, Apple Martini. Specifically Arbour Gold is linked somehow to some deception going on The fact that it didn't appear in the first two books doesn't alarm me. Antlers is an ominous symbol and I think they only occur in the first three books. It's the context, not the distribution that is significant.

[straits]

Arbor gold is obviously a symbol of deceit. It can't be ignored from what's been put together here.

On another note, I can't help but notice the characteristic behaviour of the harpies in their natural environment: the wild harpies attack in a flock; as the forum ecosystem's apex predators, they isolate their (admittedly weaker) opposition, tearing at their loose ends, and taking their literary meal. The mesopredators will have to wait their turn for less taxing threads.

[Elba the Intoner]

I agree with this theory too. The lies and Arbor Gold line from Sansa's chapters in Feast always stood out to me especially. As you mentioned, Sansa gets it right away. Then later on she thinks to herself "lies and Arbor Gold" when deciding how to answer LF's question about can she be Alayne in her heart. I have mentioned in other threads, particularly the ones debating whether Sansa/Alayne is truly accepting of LF's influence and becoming subsumed by the Alayne persona, that it's this line in particular which leads me to believe that Sansa is not buying into LF's BS and is only telling him what she knows he wants to hear.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Arbor gold is obviously a symbol of deceit. It can't be ignored from what's been put together here.

On another note, I can't help but notice the characteristic behaviour of the harpies in their natural environment: the wild harpies attack in a flock; as the forum ecosystem's apex predators, they isolate their (admittedly weaker) opposition, tearing at their loose ends, and taking their literary meal. The mesopredators will have to wait their turn for less taxing threads.

:bowdown: :lmao:

Also, thanks Ragnorak for coming up with that huge itemized list. Super helpful!

[Sir Noone Sword Of The Day]

could be just coincidence since its an expensive wine that only the wealthy drink and the story really only focuses on the wealthy... however having said that why isn't Dornish Red used in all these circumstances, so in that regard your theory IMO is an interesting point, but i couldn't believe that every time someone drinks some arbor gold they are either dishing out a load of sh*t or being given it.

[FuriousGeorge]

could be just coincidence since its an expensive wine that only the wealthy drink and the story really only focuses on the wealthy... however having said that why isn't Dornish Red used in all these circumstances, so in that regard your theory IMO is an interesting point, but i couldn't believe that every time someone drinks some arbor gold they are either dishing out a load of sh*t or being given it.

symbolism is not deterministic like that.

[straits]

could be just coincidence since its an expensive wine that only the wealthy drink and the story really only focuses on the wealthy... however having said that why isn't Dornish Red used in all these circumstances, so in that regard your theory IMO is an interesting point, but i couldn't believe that every time someone drinks some arbor gold they are either dishing out a load of sh*t or being given it.

18/20 times, to be exact. So by not believing it, you're following a 10% chance that they aren't being given shit.

[lady m]

could be just coincidence since its an expensive wine that only the wealthy drink and the story really only focuses on the wealthy... however having said that why isn't Dornish Red used in all these circumstances, so in that regard your theory IMO is an interesting point, but i couldn't believe that every time someone drinks some arbor gold they are either dishing out a load of sh*t or being given it.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say. Dornish red and Arbor wines aren't the same thing, and aren't used in the same way, having run a search last night trying to see if they do. It's not just that either are expensive or choice wines in story, it's the context in which Arbor wines are used throughout the novels.

And, thank you Ragnorak, reading that long of a list, and seeing so many situations of deceit seems to indicate that Arbor wines = deceit, as a context clue for the reader.

[FuriousGeorge]

18/20 times, to be exact. So by not believing it, you're following a 10% chance that they aren't being given shit.

Its not really being exact though is it, 18/20 is just the opinion of the people who came up with the original argument - if you actually go and look at them some are a bit stretched. I don't think Arbor Gold is going to be a portent either, i.e. its presence doesn't automatically signal deceit.

[butterbumps!]

Arbor gold is obviously a symbol of deceit. It can't be ignored from what's been put together here.

On another note, I can't help but notice the characteristic behaviour of the harpies in their natural environment: the wild harpies attack in a flock; as the forum ecosystem's apex predators, they isolate their (admittedly weaker) opposition, tearing at their loose ends, and taking their literary meal. The mesopredators will have to wait their turn for less taxing threads.

eh. I'm just a happy little butterball. It's the other two that are the monsters. Let's ship them a cask of Arbor Gold and rid the forum of this scourge?

Its not really being exact though is it, 18/20 is just the opinion of the people who came up with the original argument - if you actually go and look at them some are a bit stretched. I don't think Arbor Gold is going to be a portent either, i.e. its presence doesn't automatically signal deceit.

Which are a stretch?

[FuriousGeorge]

Which are a stretch?

Of the 11 in the OP of this thread (what are the other 7?) I think the 'Tyrion in Illyrio's house' one and the 'Sansa + Tyrion non-consummation' one. The second one particularly; I don't think its really deceit in the way the others are.

[FranReq]

Aegon — Aegon who is almost certainly not real — claims that Varys paid the switchling's father with a jug of wine ... Arbor Gold.

Well played

[Starkley]

oranges in Coppola films can be explained by the fact that Italians just really like citrus

I was actually eating an orange when I read this - and choked a bit. :laugh: Maybe I need a sip of wine but its too early :ack:

Good points AM and BB! and DP. I think this is a literary device and now I will keep it in mind while reading. I see wine as a great way to deceive people (in the books) so would a great wine such as Arbor gold would mean a great deception and not just something small?

[butterbumps!]

Of the 11 in the OP of this thread (what are the other 7?) I think the 'Tyrion in Illyrio's house' one and the 'Sansa + Tyrion non-consummation' one. The second one particularly; I don't think its really deceit in the way the others are.

Ok, maybe this helps. Here's list of the full 20:

1. During the council meeting: "When that was granted, he pronounced himself well satisfied and suggested that they send for a cask of Arbor gold, to toast good King Joffrey and his wise and benevolent Hand."

2. Tyrion asks Sansa to pour him the Arbor Gold at the night of the bedding. She's been deceitful in her meetings with Dontos, and the entire marriage is farce. He's also looking to be lied to to ease his conscience about the marriage in general: “There is a flagon of good Arbor gold on the sideboard, Sansa. Will you be so kind as to pour me a cup?”

3 + 4. Leo Tyrell in Oldtown brings up Arbor Gold twice: “Buy me a cup of Arbor gold, Hopfrog, and perhaps I won’t inform my father of your toast." and “Far be it from me to keep you from the piss tasting,” said Leo. “Myself, I prefer the taste of Arbor gold.” Leo stands out as a figure Pate and Alleras do not trust at all.

5. Cersei, outwitted by Tyrion and Varys, reflects that the two are probably out at sea drinking the stuff: "If so, the two of them were well out to sea by now, sharing a flagon of Arbor gold in the cabin of a galley."

6. LF's instructions to Sansa: “We shall serve him lies and Arbor gold, and he’ll drink them down and ask for more, I promise you.”

7. Sansa, in disguise, pours the wine (italics in the text): A low fire burned in the solar, where a flagon of wine awaited them. Arbor gold. Sansa filled Lord Nestor’s cup whilst Petyr prodded at the logs with an iron poker.

8. After the LD meeting, LF reinforces the power of Arbor Gold as a method of seduction: “You see the wonders that can be worked with lies and Arbor gold?”

9. Sansa immediately thinks of Arbor Gold in association with her Alayne lie (italics in the text): “I . . .” I do not know, my lord, she almost said, but that was not what he wanted to hear. Lies and Arbor gold, she thought. “I am Alayne, Father. Who else would I be?”

10. Cersei requests the Arbor Gold, which Taena pours for her: “The gold, I think. I find Dornish wines as sour as the Dornish.”

11. Qyburn discusses Septon candidates, bringing up a man Luceon who is a hypocrite and easily bribed: “Last night he feted thirty of the Most Devout on suckling pig and Arbor gold, and by day he hands out hardbread to the poor to prove his piety.”

12. Cersei and Taena have a slumber party, getting drunk on Arbor Gold: "Outside a cold wind was rising. They stayed up late into the morning, drinking Arbor gold and telling one another tales."

13. Cersei is awoken to deal with the issue of Greyjoy attacks in the Reach. She's annoyed, and is seeking her councillors to give her "yes man" answers (she is extremely pleased by Taena's pandering). She thinks how she wants Arbor Gold specifically: The little queen is making excuses for her brother. Cersei’s mouth was dry. I need a cup of Arbor gold.

14. Illyrio has 3 score casks of Arbor wine in his basement, among other vintages

15. It's noted that a certain black beer could fetch as much money as a cask of Arbor Gold

16 + 17. Payment for the Aegon swap: "His father sold him to Lord Varys for a jug of Arbor gold. He had other sons but had never tasted Arbor gold. Varys gave the Pisswater boy to my lady mother and carried me away.”

18. Tyrion mentions how the swill he's offering Penny is no Arbor Gold (and he's being surprisingly truthful with her): “Have some wine, then.” He filled a cup and slid it toward her. “Compliments of our captain. Closer to piss than Arbor gold, if truth be told, but even piss tastes better than the black tar rum the sailors drink. It might help you sleep.”

19. Manderley and the Frey Pies: “The best pie you have ever tasted, my lords,” the fat lord declared. “Wash it down with Arbor gold and savor every bite. I know I shall.”

20. Jizrag the Lorax has taken a liking to it and asks for it after the poisoned locusts: “Take Draqaz with you. One flagon of Arbor gold, and one of that sweet red.

I put the citations that I think speak to the association most strongly in Red. I bolded references to it that I think are probative-- more subtle or latent associations with deceit, like self deception. The two I left un formatted I think stand outside of direct associations with deceit, and rather set up the premise that this is an exquisite luxury item (which does feed into why people are willing swallow lies along with this wine).

[A Crow Come Over]

Arbor Gold = Sign of Duplicity/Lies (h/t to co-conspirators and fellow Harpies butterbumps!, Dr. Pepper and Lady M)

Littlefinger uses the "lies and Arbor Gold" line and uses the wine to convince the Lords Declarant of the Vale to side with him, when in fact he's playing them against each other and being duplicious. (Sansa serves it to Nestor Royce.)

Tyrion is allowed to drink a bunch of the quality vintage stuff in Illyrio's house, in which he is most certainly being fed a load of BS.

Sansa pours Arbor Gold for Tyrion on their wedding night; most people assume they're consumating the marriage and they're not.

Manderly tells the people present for the Ramsay/"Arya" wedding feast to "wash it down" with Arbor Gold — right when he's serving Frey Pies disguised as pork pies.

Taena gives some Arbor Gold to Cersei — Taena who is obviously playing both sides and spying on her.

The Redwyne Olenna Tyrell seems to be lying or manipulating over a whole pantload of stuff.

Hizdahr develops a taste for it in Meereen — he's almost certainly not being truthful to Dany, or it could point to the misleading conclusion that he's the Harpy when he isn't.

If you expand this a little more broadly, Dany's would-be assassin offers her Arbor red wine, just not Arbor Gold.

It's used to toast Joffrey's health at a council meeting. *snickers*

Aegon — Aegon who is almost certainly not real — claims that Varys paid the switchling's father with a jug of wine ... Arbor Gold.

Excellent find and furthers the "food code" that I believe GRRM has thrown in, there's a reason why we are told in detail what is being eaten and drunk.

[A Crow Come Over]

Ok, I've have gone through and looked at every mention of Arbor wine, any color. I'm still only in Clash, but here's what I have so far. This is EVERY mention.

• Robert coming to Ned when Ned is injured. Ned says Cat took Tyrion at his command. We know this is a lie.
  
• Dany's wine merchant, offers dornish but changes to arbor red when he finds out who she is.
  
• Maester Coleman uses Arbor red to poison Melisandre when he's pretending to make peace with her.
  
• Theon: captain of Myraham has a load of goods, wine from the arbor included. Theon realizes they do not recognize him. Period of self-deception, in case that isn't clear.
  
• Tyrion and Janos. Janos asks if the wine is from the Arbor but Tyrion says it's Dornish
  

So you think Arbor Red = Death/Murder and Arbor Gold = Lies/Deceit?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

So you think Arbor Red = Death/Murder and Arbor Gold = Lies/Deceit?

After Rag's list, with red used in at least three poisonings/attempts, I think this is exactly what it means.

[A Crow Come Over]

After Rag's list, with red used in at least three poisonings/attempts, I think this is exactly what it means.

Far out man, I'm in the middle of my series re-read so this will definitely be something I will be keeping an eye on.

[Mladen]

I adore when people think that by opposing someone who is long-time member here can give them some credibility that they are individuals with disregard of majority. And it seems that several members here on the forum like Apple Martini draws attention of these contrarians. Face it people, when someone is right, you give him credit, when he/she isn`t, then you give textual evidence. Saying something`s wrong isn`t enough. Well, at least it isn`t enough for me.

Now, as for the Arbor gold

Ok, maybe this helps. Here's list of the full 20:

snip

First, this is astonishing list. On PTP thread, Arbor gold has been discussed several times, especially the time Sansa is serving it. My opinion is that in the novels like ASOIAF, everything has its purpose. Just like clothing, jewlery, architecture etc, food and drink have its purpose. hether we discuss lemoncakes or Arbor gold, it`s obvious GRRM uses it as symbolism and foreshadowing of some kind. And, also, he isn`t the first writer to do that. From apple of discord to lembas bread and all in between, it`s quite normal to pay attention to these details.

It`s interesting that GRRM perhaps with Arbor gold diverged one of the most famous lines `In vino veritas` :)