Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

brashcandy

From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa XX

Recommended Posts

Hi, this is my first post, so sorry if this is silly, but I don't think that was Stranger the Hound was riding when he boarded the boat, (even though he seems like someone who'd care for any of his horses).

He states to Tyrion, afterwards, that he had lost his horse (pg760 of my paperback, ACoK) during the battle of blackwater. I've always thought that Stranger was Theon's ex-horse Smiler, who was described as big as a destrier but as fast as a courser by Theon himself, as well as being foul tempered, hence his name. Theon last saw his horse bolting from the stables, at Winterfell, with his mane on fire. It's not noted that the horse died, so I got the impression Sandor found Smiler as a wondering stray, like himself, and re-named him as suited the horse's aggressive temperament. The description for Smiler, during the Theon chapters was pretty specific,

They can't be the same horse as the timeline of the story would not work out. Theon last sees his horse during the sack at WF. But WF is on the other side of the kingdom, months travel away from KL. Also, there has been a theory put forth that Smiler and Stranger are related based upon their descriptions and a few other points before. I don't remember the details (maybe someone else will?) but it was a pretty compelling argument.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

snip

First, welcome to the forum and the thread :cheers: . I know we all appreciate when people start their journey on this forum right here and I hope you`ll stay around.

Interesting theory, but I doubt it`s very plausible. From Winterfell to Riverlands is so much, someone could have noticed the horse, and claim him.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Okay, I read the books a while ago, and it was just something that stuck out for me being that the descriptions for the two were so similar, so I thought I'd mention it and at least try to rummage up the quotes, but thanks for the reply.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Okay, I read the books a while ago, and it was just something that stuck out for me being that the descriptions for the two were so similar, so I thought I'd mention it and at least try to rummage up the quotes, but thanks for the reply.

Sandor goes looking after Stranger after he returns Sansa. That is the horse he leaves KL on.

On the Quite Isle, "Driftwood" is as wild as Stranger, and even bites the ear off of brother Gillam. Biting an ear off of someone who approaces to geld a horse isn't a normal reaction for a horse. Biting and kicking is, however, something one trains a warhorse for.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Okay, I read the books a while ago, and it was just something that stuck out for me being that the descriptions for the two were so similar, so I thought I'd mention it and at least try to rummage up the quotes, but thanks for the reply.

Search is turned off right now or at least it was when I checked a bit ago. But, when it comes back, if you do a search on the names of both horses, you should find a thread talking about this in more detail and an explanation of that theory I mentioned. You are one of the few who has noticed this. :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Nryhex,

I like the grave digger theory, so have made the connection between Driftwood and Stranger. The part that adds the most fuel to my thinking Smiler is Stranger, is Sandor saying he lost his horse after the battle of blackwater.

"I've lost half my men. Horse as well." pg 760 ACoK

plus the physical descriptions. When you say he goes looking for Stranger after returning Sansa, I take it you mean after the riot? He doesn't name the horse he is looking for, so I'd have thought that was the one he lost during the afore mentioned battle.

I can understand the timeline argument, but the similarities, down to similar descriptive text, using the same phrases (this is the bit that I suppose is most catching my attention), to me, is odd. Kittykat I did wonder why I kept getting error when I tried to search, thanks for letting me know. I did, also, wonder about posting my own thread but this one was discussing Sandor's personality/arc and I thought there might be some relevance if Stranger and Smiler turned out to be one and the same as fire/temper/hellhorse seem to be associated with this animal, and I thought it might have some importance considering Sandor's and Theon's life journey.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Nryhex,

I like the grave digger theory, so have made the connection between Driftwood and Stranger. The part that adds the most fuel to my thinking Smiler is Stranger, is Sandor saying he lost his horse after the battle of blackwater.

"I've lost half my men. Horse as well." pg 760 ACoK

plus the physical descriptions. When you say he goes looking for Stranger after returning Sansa, I take it you mean after the riot? He doesn't name the horse he is looking for, so I'd have thought that was the one he lost during the afore mentioned battle.

I can understand the timeline argument, but the similarities, down to similar descriptive text, using the same phrases (this is the bit that I suppose is most catching my attention), to me, is odd. Kittykat I did wonder why I kept getting error when I tried to search, thanks for letting me know. I did, also, wonder about posting my own thread but this one was discussing Sandor's personality/arc and I thought there might be some relevance if Stranger and Smiler turned out to be one and the same as fire/temper/hellhorse seem to be associated with this animal, and I thought it might have some importance considering Sandor's and Theon's life journey.

It would'nt be the first time he lost his horse. If "lost" means misplaced, there is no reason he can't find him again. If "lost" means "died on me" - may not be the same horse. Knights have several horses, and Stranger can still be alive if another dies. He is a named charachter, not likely to die in half a sentance.

“Where’s my horse? If anything’s happened to that horse, someone’s going to pay.”

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Milady - Thank you for the additional information about "gold" wines. Fascinating.

It seems that Sandor doesn't often imbibe Arbor Gold (if ever). He seems to drink whatever is available which is usually a substandard red variety. However, he does have a preference for wine which suggests an association with seasonal change, fertility, and death, as in the Eleusinian mysteries (which I am certain that you and many other well read posters have discussed in their relationship with the Sansa story) or the Dionysian rites.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted in error.Sorry.Back later with a proper post!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As I've been discussing with brashcandy, I've been working for a while on a three-way comparison of Sansa, Arya and Catelyn, hoping that this might be illuminating for Sansa and Arya's character arcs, although I know individual write-ups of Sansa's relationships with Arya and Catelyn have already been posted. I've found it helpful to look at all three characters together - with some brief references to Ned - as I think this highlights some key themes in the novels. The first chunk deals with the themes of honour and mercy, on one hand, and justice and vengeance, on the other, and how Sansa, Arya and Cat fit into this schema. (Inevitably, there are some sections that aren't particularly Sansa-centric.)

I've included page references, but I have a motley collection of books. For Game, Clash and Feast, the page numbers refer to the single-volume UK paperbacks, and Dance is the single-volume UK hardback. However, Storm is the single-volume US paperback.

***

'I must not pity him'

Honour and mercy are predominantly associated with one character in A Song of Ice and Fire – Ned Stark – and for good reason. The most succinct statement of Ned’s philosophy and of its limitations comes when he rejects Littlefinger’s offer of help after Robert’s death: ‘He drew the dagger and laid it on the table between them; a length of dragonbone and Valyrian steel, as sharp as the difference between right and wrong, between true and false, between life and death.’ [GOT, 512-13]. Renly remembers, “he would not listen and he would not bend.” [COK, 257]. Sansa remembers that ‘My father always told the truth.’ [sOS, 85]. Robert’s desire for revenge on Rhaegar Targaryen is puzzling and disconcerting to Ned: ‘he found himself recalling Rhaegar Targaryen. Fifteen years dead, yet Robert hates him as much as ever. It was a disturbing notion...’ [GOT, 356]. He refuses to send assassins after Dany [GOT, 353-4] or to reject Stannis’s legitimate claim to the throne [GOT 635]. As this evidence suggests, honour and mercy, for Ned, go hand in hand with justice. He perceives no relationship between justice and vengeance, as he demonstrates in his discussion with Ser Loras: “Vengeance?... I thought we were speaking of justice. Burning Clegane’s fields and slaughtering his people will not restore the king’s peace, only your injured pride.” [GOT, 469]. Later in the same scene, he tells him that “we are about justice here, and what you seek is vengeance.” [GOT, 470]

Like Ned, Sansa is predominantly associated with mercy, yet her empathy and compassion are even more marked. We see her singing ‘Gentle Mother, font of mercy... teach us all a kinder way’ [COK, 595] and comforting the women in the Red Keep during the Battle of the Blackwater. She speaks kindly to Ser Lancel, a Lannister and her enemy, in Storm, and is one of the few people in King’s Landing to have any sympathy for Lollys. Before Marillion’s trial, where she bears false witness against him to save her own life, she has to tell herself ‘I must not pity him’ [FFC, 183], reminding herself that he tried to rape her and also stood by while Lysa threatened to murder her. Unlike Ned and Arya, however, she does not seem overly concerned with justice, possessing a more flexible definition of fairness, and indeed she is involved in at least two unjust trials (Joffrey/Lady, Marillion, and if her status as a key, if absent, witness in Tyrion’s trial is counted, a third). By definition, courtesy and kindness does not always involve telling the truth, as Sansa recognises when she thinks ‘A lie is not so bad if it is kindly meant’ [FFC, 182], but Sansa’s willingness to see the truth as a malleable instrument, rather than Ned’s image of it as an inflexible dagger, may yet lead her into danger.

'Hang Theon in a crow's cage to die slowly'

On the other hand, justice and vengeance are predominantly associated with Catelyn and Arya. Catelyn’s relationship with the concept of justice is fascinating; in general, before she becomes Lady Stoneheart, she supports Ned’s idea of justice, and continually emphasises the importance of differentiating it from vengeance. Unlike Ned, however, she supports justice for pragmatic, rather than honourable reasons, recognising the essential futility of vengeance. When Edmure tells her “the Lannisters will pay, I swear it, you will have your vengeance,” after Ned’s execution, she asks him“Will that bring Ned back to me?” [GOT, 787]. She has similar exchanges with both Stannis and Renly in Clash:

[Renly] “My lady, I swear to you, I will see that the Lannisters answer for your husband’s murder,” the king [Renly] declared. “When I take King’s Landing, I’ll send you Cersei’s head.”

And will that bring my Ned back to me? she thought. “It will be enough to know that justice has been done, my lord.” [COK, 253]

[stannis] “Still, I give you my word, you shall have justice for his murder.” How they loved to promise heads, these men who would be king. “Your brother promised me the same. But if truth be told, I would sooner have my daughters back, and leave justice to the gods.” [COK, 346]

She explains herself to Karstark with similar rationality when he tells her, that, by releasing Jaime, “You have robbed me of my vengeance”, noting that “Lord Rickard, the Kingslayer’s dying would not have bought life for your children. His living may buy life for mine.” [sOS, 191]

Catelyn also has two monologues on the foolishness of revenge that I think are two of the most powerful monologues in the series. Firstly, when Lord Karstark tells her that “You are the gentle sex... A man has a need for vengeance”, Catelyn replies “Give me Cersei Lannister, Lord Karstark, and you would see how gentle a woman can be... Perhaps I do not understand tactics and strategy... but I understand futility... I will mourn for Ned until the end of my days, but I must think of the living. I want my daughters back, and the queen holds them still. If I must trade our four Lannisters for their two Starks, I will call that a bargain and thank the gods. I want you safe, Robb, ruling at Winterfell from your father’s seat. I want you to live your life, to kiss a girl and wed a woman and father a son. I want to write an end to this. I want to go home, my lords, and weep for my husband.’ [GOT, 795]

Heartbreakingly, when she gives this monologue again, to her dying father, her list of ‘wants’ has moved from being a list of hopes to a list of losses, as she recognises what she cannot have and the ultimate failure of her earlier arguments: ‘Robb must fight the Greyjoys now as well as the Lannisters, and for what? For a gold hat and an iron chair? Surely the land has bled enough. I want my girls back, I want Robb to lay down his sword and pick some homely daughter of Walder Frey to make him happy and give him sons. I want Bran and Rickon back, I want...” Catelyn hung her head. “I want.”... Midnight has come, father, she thought, and I must do my duty. She let go of his hand. [COK, 576]

However, this second monologue is not merely Cat’s acceptance of her fate, as, of course, the ‘duty’ she tells Hoster she has to do is releasing Jaime. Indeed, her repetition of the same points becomes a justification for finally acting impulsively, for transgressing social norms and not doing the ‘duty’ that men have told her she must do, but taking the path forwards that she can see most clearly. And, as her first monologue indicated (‘Give me Cersei...’), Catelyn, unlike Ned, is not immune to the emotional attractions of vengeance, although she keeps herself under tight control. The reader is clearly meant to think that she might be intending to kill Jaime, not releasing him, and that is consistent with her previous thoughts of revenge. She tells Brienne: “I have no skill with swords, but that does not mean I do not dream of riding to King’s Landing and wrapping my hands around Cersei Lannister’s white throat and squeezing until her face turns black”, giving Brienne permission to take her revenge on Stannis, although Cat knows by this point that he has the lawful claim to the throne [COK, 410-11]. She tells Robb that his ‘first duty’ is ‘to defend your own people, win back Winterfell, and hang Theon in a crow’s cage to die slowly’, conflating duty and vengeance [sOS, 200]. Most strikingly, she reflects to Brienne after hearing of Bran and Rickon’s deaths, ‘Ned always said that the man who passes the sentence should swing the blade, though he never took any joy in the duty. But I would, oh yes.’ [COK, 574]

‘You don’t deserve the gift of mercy’

The ideas of justice, vengeance and mercy also seem crucial in Arya’s arc. Arya is a staunch defender of the innocent and weak, but her fierce belief in justice seems to exclude the possibility of her being truly merciful. For example, when she gives water to Stark men hanging in crow cages, she is keen to establish first that they are Robb’s men and deserve her help, although a truly merciful action would have been to give them water regardless, as they are dying [sOS, 397-8]. Like Sansa, Arya is involved in numerous trials, where she is often furious when justice is not done; she shouts ‘Liar!’ at Sansa’s unclear testimony, and is angry that the Brotherhood without Banners does not execute the Hound. This, however, is a score that she is able to settle, when she tells him: “You don’t deserve the gift of mercy... You shouldn’t have hit me with an axe... You should have saved my mother.” [sOS, 1038]. Arya’s concern for justice leads her to desperately seek a reason to murder the old man in Dance (‘He has lived too long... He has no courtesy... His face is hard and mean... He is an evil man... and he has a villain’s beard’) whereas the point of her training is that ‘it is not for you to judge him.’ She wants the kind of personal connection with her victim that Ned strove for, albeit in a twisted way: ‘When I kill him, he will look in my eyes and thank me’, but the kindly man is not interested in Stark justice: ‘It would be best if he took no note of you at all.’ [DWD, 837-8] Throughout Dance, the kindly man seems to be trying to tell Arya that she is no longer involved in the kind of ‘Stark of Winterfell’ justice that led her to murder Dareon, and that she has to put this aside if she is to join the Faceless Men and give ‘the gift of death’, which sounds akin to ‘the gift of mercy’ she denied the Hound.

While, as we have seen, Sansa is associated with mercy and pity, Catelyn is far more akin to Arya in this respect. When she pleads for peace, her reasons are pragmatic – saving her family – rather than truly forgiving. As Lady Stoneheart, she is also known as ‘Mother Merciless’, and while an argument can be made that her trials are fair, they are hardly merciful. Overall, Catelyn’s greater affinity with Arya may explain why, although both girls want to take their mother’s name as an alias when they go into hiding, it is only Arya who is allowed to retain it. And for Arya, ‘Cat’ is clearly not just a means to an end – as ‘Nan’, ‘Arry’ and ‘Squab’ were – but a valued identity. She uses ‘Cat’ to keep up her spirits during her isolation in Braavos, telling herself ‘I am a cat now, not a wolf. I am Cat of the Canals.’ [FFC, 627] and ‘Cats never weep, she told herself, no more than wolves do.’ [FFC, 628]. This second statement indicates that, unlike, for example, the mouse-like Nan, ‘Cat’ is an identity that Arya can reconcile with her Stark self, although she is different from the true Arya Stark. In contrast, Sansa plays Alayne Stone, who diverges ever further from the inward Sansa; even her physical resemblance to Catelyn is reduced when she dyes her hair.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

snip

Excellent post and I very much agree. More than that, I've always felt that the sister's arcs paralleled form a core around which most of the series' themes are developed.

In this particular theme, we see how Ned's idealism combined with his emotional response and Cat's pragmatism combined with her emotional responce have a moderating effect and leads to two attitudes that are sensible for the most part and are well in sync with one another. Sansa has Ned's emotional response and Cat's pragmatism and Arya has Ned's idealism with Cat's emotinal response. This leads to two extremes. Sansa looks the other way when perhaps she shouldn't, while Arya is unrelenting and capable of any action, inviting all sorts of consequences.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sansa has Ned's emotional response and Cat's pragmatism and Arya has Ned's idealism with Cat's emotinal response. This leads to two extremes. Sansa looks the other way when perhaps she shouldn't, while Arya is unrelenting and capable of any action, inviting all sorts of consequences.

I agree - a perfect summary of the sisters' respective flaws :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Daphne23, what a beautiful post and analysis. You really did wonderful job.

My idea of Sansa`s sense of justice has always been `justice tempered with mercy`. I think her compassionate side is predominant in her judgement and that sometimes costed her a lot, but she is rare type where you can see she feels pity for those that passed. Even though Dontos betrayed her, Lysa tried to kill her, Marillion to rape her, she feels pity for them. Heck, she feels pity for Margaery after Joffrey`s death. And although, LF tries to diminish that profound sentiment, she fights it. That`s where they`ll confront. LF will think he has her, and yet her most powerful weapon will be the fact she is compassionate, caring girl.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree - a perfect summary of the sisters' respective flaws :)

Well, character traits. Which can be strenghts in some circumstances, while prove to be flaws in others.

When Ned told Arya that they need eachother, he wasn't just reciting platitudes, or if he was, he inadvertently hit the nail on the head. They do need eachother's perspectives, profoundly so. Sansa needs a more critical outllook and Arya needs to learn to let go. Martin, however does not do gratification, much, and I'm not sure I'd want him to in this instance. It might be more interesting if he let these traits develop in the paths he has set them in. If he does go for the moderating influence one would have on the other, the man formerly known as the Hound might act as a bridge between the two sisters.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Daphne23

Overall, Catelyn’s greater affinity with Arya may explain why, although both girls want to take their mother’s name as an alias when they go into hiding, it is only Arya who is allowed to retain it.

Wow Daphne23, that was a fascinating essay on Cat and her girls. It’s always interested me greatly the way Sansa was more like Ned and Arya like Cat, and your words just made me recall why. Like the quote above, that bit about Sansa not being able to retain her mother’s name is poignant since though we have talked about it and researched out predictions more than once, we can’t be certain of the turn of events George will come up with in the sixth book.

just an Other

Sansa has Ned's emotional response and Cat's pragmatism and Arya has Ned's idealism with Cat's emotional response.

Agree, and it’s important to remember that though Sansa was like her father, she managed to survive KL, and outlive many important players (:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Great post, Daphne. I particularly liked your analysis on Cat. I believe it supports that, actually, Lady Stonehart is Lady Catelyn; a Lady Catelyn that has nothing to lose, no matters of greater importance to consider, thus she can be "free" to release her need for revenge.

When Ned told Arya that they need eachother, he wasn't just reciting platitudes, or if he was, he inadvertently hit the nail on the head.

I agree very much with this and can't wait to see how it will be done. I think they are meant to be together. Their respective arcs have so many aspects in common, even their chapter names are altered almost simultaneously.

Sansa needs a more critical outllook and Arya needs to learn to let go.

I think that one result of their current "apprenticeships" is exactly this. So, when they meet again, the gap in their perspectives won't be as big as it used to be.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Very insightful piece, Daphne, I'm looking forward to reading the rest. I think a good illustration of the differences between the sisters' perspectives when it comes to these themes can be seen in their "prayer" moments throughout the novels. Arya's prayer list is an actual hit list for vengeance, repeated every night, whereas Sansa's prayers are geared towards forgiveness and understanding, even for persons like Tyrion, whose family is at war with her own.

Sansa knew most of the hymns, and followed along on those she did not know as best she could. She sang along with grizzled old serving men and anxious young wives, with serving girls and soldiers, cooks and falconers, knights and knaves, squires and spit boys and nursing mothers. She sang with those inside the castle walls and those without, sang with all the city. She sang for mercy, for the living and the dead alike, for Bran and Rickon and Robb, for her sister Arya and her bastard brother Jon Snow, away off on the Wall. She sang for her mother and her father, for her grandfather Lord Hoster and her uncle Edmure Tully, for her friend Jeyne Poole, for old drunken King Robert, for Septa Mordane and Ser Dontos and Jory Cassel and Maester Luwin, for all the brave knights and soldiers who would die today, and for the children and the wives who would mourn them, and finally, toward the end, she even sang for Tyrion the Imp and for the Hound. He is no true knight but he saved me all the same, she told the Mother. Save him if you can, and gentle the rage inside him.

But even Sansa's mercy has its limits, as we see when the priest asks for special consideration for Joffrey:

But when the septon climbed on high and called upon the gods to protect and defend their true and noble king, Sansa got to her feet. The aisles were jammed with people. She had to shoulder through while the septon called upon the Smith to lend strength to Joffrey’s sword and shield, the Warrior to give him courage, the Father to defend him in his need. Let his sword break and his shield shatter, Sansa thought coldly as she shoved out through the doors, let his courage fail him and every man desert him.

So whilst I do agree that both sisters could benefit from adopting the attitude/approach of the other in some instances, I do think that within Sansa there's a kind of "point of no return" for certain individuals, where she's capable of advocating and realizing her own harsh justice. Her experiences in the Vale will only sharpen this, I'd imagine.

If he does go for the moderating influence one would have on the other, the man formerly known as the Hound might act as a bridge between the two sisters.

I agree. To come back to Daphne's point about trials, it's interesting to look at the role Sandor has played in the seminal ones involving Sansa and Arya. In the Joffrey/Lady debacle, he's the one to hunt down Mycah - earning Arya's enmity, and then there's the intriguing symbolic meaning of Robert's "get her a dog, she'll be happier for it". During his time with Sansa in KL, he's able to open her eyes to a lot of the hypocrisy and brutality of the world around her, and also to protect her in critical moments from such. But equally important is the impact Sansa has on him, and her ability to offer him some kind of redemptive hope for transformation/change, whilst his meet-up with Arya later on will force him to confront the wrongs he's done, and to reach a place where healing is possible. I think that he personifies the balance between the extremes represented by the sisters, and this is one reason why he could play a significant part in their future reconnection if that's where Martin is headed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks everyone for the lovely and insightful comments! :)

Great post, Daphne. I particularly liked your analysis on Cat. I believe it supports that, actually, Lady Stonehart is Lady Catelyn; a Lady Catelyn that has nothing to lose, no matters of greater importance to consider, thus she can be "free" to release her need for revenge.

I agree; I used to think that Cat and Lady Stoneheart were largely distinct, but I don't think a close reading of Cat's character really supports this.

I think a good illustration of the differences between the sisters' perspectives when it comes to these themes can be seen in their "prayer" moments throughout the novels. Arya's prayer list is an actual hit list for vengeance, repeated every night, whereas Sansa's prayers are geared towards forgiveness and understanding, even for persons like Tyrion, whose family is at war with her own.

There's actually a bit on prayer and superstition coming up!

So whilst I do agree that both sisters could benefit from adopting the attitude/approach of the other in some instances, I do think that within Sansa there's a kind of "point of no return" for certain individuals, where she's capable of advocating and realizing her own harsh justice. Her experiences in the Vale will only sharpen this, I'd imagine.

This is interesting; again, there's a little bit on this coming up, but to get ahead of myself (because I hadn't thought of it quite this way before reading your comment), immediately after Joffrey dies, Sansa is crying, and Lady Tanda comments:

"You have a good heart, my lady... Not every maid would weep so for a man who set her aside and wed her to a dwarf"

But Sansa, who is obviously crying for quite different reasons, thinks:

A good heart. I have a good heart. Hysterical laughter rose up her gullet...’

The idea of having a 'good heart' or a 'gentle heart' is one that I'm quite interested in re. Sansa, but suffice it to say for now that this quote provides further evidence that her attitude towards Joffrey is very different from her stance towards other people who have wronged her, like Marillion, and indicates that she can be pushed too far, despite her essential gentleness. I think the 'I must not pity him' quote in the Vale indicates that she may be trying to harden her heart under Petyr's tutelage, and that this might lead her into danger.

Your comments on Sansa, Arya and the Hound are fascinating as well - the Hound is a character that others have clearly given a lot more thought to than I have, but his positioning as a bridge between the two sisters is a great summation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Amazing essay, Daphne23! I very much enjoyed the focus on justice and revenge.

Great post, Daphne. I particularly liked your analysis on Cat. I believe it supports that, actually, Lady Stonehart is Lady Catelyn; a Lady Catelyn that has nothing to lose, no matters of greater importance to consider, thus she can be "free" to release her need for revenge.

I absolutely agree.

But even Sansa's mercy has its limits, as we see when the priest asks for special consideration for Joffrey:

So whilst I do agree that both sisters could benefit from adopting the attitude/approach of the other in some instances, I do think that within Sansa there's a kind of "point of no return" for certain individuals, where she's capable of advocating and realizing her own harsh justice. Her experiences in the Vale will only sharpen this, I'd imagine.

Indeed. We also see this when Sansa wishes a hero would cut off Janos Slynt's head.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

When Ned told Arya that they need eachother, he wasn't just reciting platitudes, or if he was, he inadvertently hit the nail on the head. They do need eachother's perspectives, profoundly so. Sansa needs a more critical outllook and Arya needs to learn to let go. Martin, however does not do gratification, much, and I'm not sure I'd want him to in this instance. It might be more interesting if he let these traits develop in the paths he has set them in. If he does go for the moderating influence one would have on the other, the man formerly known as the Hound might act as a bridge between the two sisters.

This is nicely said, and I couldn`t agree more. One of the main things I noticed when we discussed Arya`s RW chapter on Reread Arya thread is how Sandor breaks the imagery both sisters have about knights. He showed Sansa how wrong she is about them by stipulating them to earthly level and he did in Arya`s chapter by pointing out how shallow they are and how they can`t see past them. This is one of many occasions we have that Sandor serves as a bridge between sisters, especially are noticable when he is dying in ASOS.

So whilst I do agree that both sisters could benefit from adopting the attitude/approach of the other in some instances, I do think that within Sansa there's a kind of "point of no return" for certain individuals, where she's capable of advocating and realizing her own harsh justice. Her experiences in the Vale will only sharpen this, I'd imagine.

I think that Sandor ifluenced Sansa in this new approach where she understands there is no turning back for some people. As much as Sansa influenced him, he also influenced her. He made her realize that world isn`t pretty place and it`s basically kill or be killed. And although, Sansa`s unable to accept that philosophy, it changes her a bit when Joffery, Dontos, Lysa, Marillion situations happened. But, it`s wonderful to see how two sides are confronting in her in every case, the pity and acceptance they had to die. It makes Sansa complex layered character with ability to both kill and feel. And that`s where the true ideal of justice is - `tempered with mercy`.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

×