The Dragon Queen Posted July 7, 2013 Share Posted July 7, 2013 Oh come on, that one instance should not be used to judge him. The boy was wise enough to listen to Tyrion's great advise. Dany had no need for another beggar with a better claim than hers, you know what she did to the last one...Landing in Westeros is brash but not irrational, the same goes for his choice to lead the attack on Storm's End. A king must prove himself to his men by leading. He would be a spoiled brat if he stayed in the back all time. Remember Joffrey? He is not without flaws (who is at that age?) but so far his political and military decisions worked out well, from what we know including the preview chapters.it is true Aegon does have an adolescence temperament but the way he reacted to Tyrion specially making him pick up the pieces reminded me of the way Joff reacted sometimes...Danny was not responsible for Quentyn death...he acted out of insecurity and paid the price..And yes a king should lead so others follow him etc...but he seems to be ignoring Jon connington at every turn...can't decide whether that is a bad thing or a good thing ...time will tell...About Tyrion giving him helpful advised well i am not so sure...at first i thought it was sound advice however in later chapter when Tyrion learned that Aegon and GC left for Westeros he seems to be gloating that Aegon took his bait... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaerys Snow Posted July 7, 2013 Share Posted July 7, 2013 Sorry, I was a bit vague, I actually referred to Viserys not Quentyn, since you are right: Quentyn’s undoing was his own. (Of course, Viserys also had it coming, but by that time I doubt Dany would have just given him her throne).I also agree that Tyrion may not have had the best intentions, yet still I think his advice was politically sound. Do you really think Dany would have opened her arms for Aegon, accepted his better claim to the Iron Throne, and supported him? Even if she does not deny his Targ ancestry, I can barely see a Beggar-Aegon work. You have mentioned Quentyn: he did not come as a beggar, he had Dorne and 50.000 spears and was refused. I do not think Aegon would have fared any better. So invading Westeros seems the last, best option he had.And to be successful there, he needs to act like a king, for better or worse. That includes ignoring JonCon at times and even JonCon himself does not really know yet if this is good or bad. I think he has the potential to become a great king, but indeed time will have to tell... All we know so far is that his plans worked out pretty well.(In general: I love the GC, JonCon and Aegon, so - knowing grrm - I am sure they will screw up badly and die miserably sooner or later...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Taxman Posted July 8, 2013 Share Posted July 8, 2013 In a later chapter when Tyrion found out that Aegon and the GC crossed the narrow sea to Westeros he was shocked "The fools..." was what he thought of them following his advice. The thing with Tyrion is that sometimes he will say things to just screw around with people to see how they will react... and this was one of those times. I think Aegon might be the real deal... I think that the twist is that Varys and The Cheesemonger believe that this Aegon is a fake all this time leading the readers to believe that Aegon is a fake... but then in some epilogue Varys and The Cheesemonger have a conversation that goes like "Oh shit, this Aegon really is a Targ!!" after one of the many birds whispers to him that Aegon is on top of Rhaegal... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2fingers Posted July 8, 2013 Share Posted July 8, 2013 Throw him in a pit of fire and see if he burns. If he dies, well, problem solved!This. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stannis Lives Posted July 8, 2013 Share Posted July 8, 2013 I think Aegon might be the real deal... I think that the twist is that Varys and The Cheesemonger believe that this Aegon is a fake all this time leading the readers to believe that Aegon is a fake... but then in some epilogue Varys and The Cheesemonger have a conversation that goes like "Oh shit, this Aegon really is a Targ!!" after one of the many birds whispers to him that Aegon is on top of Rhaegal...Varys flat out told Kevan that aegon is the real deal. To me that is the clincher. Kevan was about to die and there wasn't anyone else around other than the children who he owns. There was absolutely no reason for him to disagree with kevan and outright lie about it. None. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Taxman Posted July 8, 2013 Share Posted July 8, 2013 Varys flat out told Kevan that aegon is the real deal. To me that is the clincher. Kevan was about to die and there wasn't anyone else around other than the children who he owns. There was absolutely no reason for him to disagree with kevan and outright lie about it. None.Not necessarily. If you reread that long passage very closely at what he says you notice that he never actually says "Aegon Targaryen" or state that Aegon is a Targaryen... Kevan notes that "Aegon is dead" with Vary's only response is that "Aegon" lives... the way he was describing what/who "Aegon" was leads me to believe that he was expressing an idea as to what a King of the realm should be like, one that he has created."Power resides where men believe it resides..."Keep in mind that Varys was born and bred from a group of troupe actors... everything is all for show and for the good of the realm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stannis Lives Posted July 8, 2013 Share Posted July 8, 2013 Not necessarily. If you reread that long passage very closely at what he says you notice that he never actually says "Aegon Targaryen" or state that Aegon is a Targaryen... Kevan notes that "Aegon is dead" with Vary's only response is that "Aegon" lives... the way he was describing what/who "Aegon" was leads me to believe that he was expressing an idea as to what a King of the realm should be like, one that he Kevan says "aegon? Aegon is dead." Varys says "no. He is here". That's after a lengthy speech of how the lords will rally their banners around aegon and before all the aegon training info. I guess anything is possible with GRRM. Seemed pretty straightforward though.Varys knows what Kevan meant and it just seems weird for varys to mention another aegon in response. I did notice how his voice gets deeper so I like the theory that he isn't actually a eunuch and is possibly a blackfyre. That would support your claim that he meant aegon blackfyre I suppose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Beyond the Wall Posted July 8, 2013 Share Posted July 8, 2013 As the above posts state, Varys confirms Aegon real to Kevan. I don't think that should be ignore for the conspiracy theory that is insinuated by a possible doubt by Tyrion, and other evidence that is reaching for credibility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dragon King Posted July 8, 2013 Share Posted July 8, 2013 Varys flat out told Kevan that aegon is the real deal. To me that is the clincher. Kevan was about to die and there wasn't anyone else around other than the children who he owns. There was absolutely no reason for him to disagree with kevan and outright lie about it. None.Why have the convo at all? Perhaps the children, who Ilyro might be connected to, were the intended audience. Varys could be using them to convince Ilyrio that Aegon is legit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Raven Posted July 8, 2013 Share Posted July 8, 2013 Or Varys thinks he's real but Illyrio knows he's not. Illyrio could be playing Varys for his own ends.it is true Aegon does have an adolescence temperament but the way he reacted to Tyrion specially making him pick up the pieces reminded me of the way Joff reacted sometimes...That and when Varys was making his Big Speech to Kevan, he went on about how Aegon was trained in arms as befits a knight, etc but when Aegon was faced with a real threat, the Stone Man on the boat, he froze. The Stone Man was clumsy and slow-moving and all Aegon had to do was take one good swing to knock the stone man over, instead Aegon just stood there with his mouth hanging open and Tyrion had to step in and handle things. So much for Aegon's knight training. Also, Varys was going on about how Aegon had done "smallfolk" jobs to learn humility, that being a king is to put his people first and to regard taking the throne as his duty, but Aegon in reality reeks of self-entitlement, just as much as Joffrey and Viserys.The fantasy prince that Varys describes isn't what Aegon is really like.Between his cocky attitude (with nothing to back it up with), his temper tantrum, and sense of entitlement, it doesn't bode well for this little punk. Or rather, this little punk doesn't bode well for Westeros. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petyr Patter Posted July 8, 2013 Share Posted July 8, 2013 The idea of the "lost heir" occurs somewhat commonly in history. Usually, the best evidence suggests a scammer or a fake. However, in the case of "False Dmitry One," he was recognized as Ivan the Terrible's believed dead by some of the highest ranking people in Moscow and declared Czar. I know one historian who believes he really was the lost heir whose assassination was faked. When you get right down to it, there is no proof that would definitely show him to be a Rhaegor's son. However, with many in the Realm desperate for an alternative to Cersei's reign, I can see a lot of people going along with the deception. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harle The Handsome Posted July 8, 2013 Share Posted July 8, 2013 I don't know how it will be revealed, but I do know that it was foreshadowed by a black iron sign that washed up on the Quiet Isle all covered in rust. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pikachu101 Posted July 8, 2013 Share Posted July 8, 2013 Aegon is a fake , how boring and cliche is a long lost heir? <_< But no one will know :DThat would be the coolest ending to ASOIAF B) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stannis Lives Posted July 8, 2013 Share Posted July 8, 2013 Aegon is a fake , how boring and cliche is a long lost heir? <_< But no one will know :DThat would be the coolest ending to ASOIAF B)So then Varys didn't know he's a fake or did he lie to Kevan? And if he lied, why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
space Posted July 8, 2013 Share Posted July 8, 2013 I would actually hope its never revealed if he's fake or not...because in actuality it doesn't really matter...the ambiguity of the subject would fit varys' theme as a player too.."power is where men believe it to be" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Masamune Posted July 8, 2013 Share Posted July 8, 2013 It doesn't matter if he's legitimate or not. All truth is relative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prince of the North Posted July 8, 2013 Share Posted July 8, 2013 So then Varys didn't know he's a fake or did he lie to Kevan? And if he lied, why?My theory is that Aegon is fake and, of course, Varys and Illyrio know he's fake - they've been setting up his possible taking of the Iron Throne for a long time. BUT, now I think Varys is having a change of heart and is looking to Dany instead of fAegon. That's why I think Varys went to all that trouble to absolutely gush about fAegon to a dying Kevan. I think that was actually meant for the ears of the Little Birds who were present to convey back to Illyrio. It would keep Illyrio thinking Varys is on board with fAegon while he's working something else. I think it plausible that Illyrio, who provides the Little Birds, could be using them to also keep tabs on Varys and Varys could know it. My theory is that Varys and Illyrio will soon have a parting of the ways. Illyrio will back his son who they are passing off as Aegon and Varys will be backing Dany. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pikachu101 Posted July 8, 2013 Share Posted July 8, 2013 So then Varys didn't know he's a fake or did he lie to Kevan? And if he lied, why?Maybe in Varys' head Aegon as a Blackfyre is the real king :dunno: I just really hate the idea of Aegon being Rhaegar and Elia's son :stillsick: it would be just as bad as Jon becoming king Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dragon Queen Posted July 8, 2013 Share Posted July 8, 2013 My theory is that Aegon is fake and, of course, Varys and Illyrio know he's fake - they've been setting up his possible taking of the Iron Throne for a long time. BUT, now I think Varys is having a change of heart and is looking to Dany instead of fAegon. That's why I think Varys went to all that trouble to absolutely gush about fAegon to a dying Kevan. I think that was actually meant for the ears of the Little Birds who were present to convey back to Illyrio. It would keep Illyrio thinking Varys is on board with fAegon while he's working something else. I think it plausible that Illyrio, who provides the Little Birds, could be using them to also keep tabs on Varys and Varys could know it. My theory is that Varys and Illyrio will soon have a parting of the ways. Illyrio will back his son who they are passing off as Aegon and Varys will be backing Dany.YEP i see it happening! i don't think the Illyrio/Varys alliance will last for long. The Dragons being born and what is happening to Danny in the east would probably change the ways they each see the end game. Also Tyrion escaping and ending up with Danny could be the catalyst that divides them. Specially Varys who knows Tyrion so well (he will only back up the winning side) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morienthar Posted July 8, 2013 Share Posted July 8, 2013 Throw him in a pit of fire and see if he burns. If he dies, well, problem solved!This.Targs aren't fire proof. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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