Crackpot Was Rhaegar mad?

[Morienthar]

Like the Westeros version of some nutty conspirancy theorist, new-age-mumbo-jumbo believer, I would say. But I'm much more intersted about Aerys II "madness" to be honest. How it started and how it developed.

Started at Summerhall and came full circle at Duskendale

[ambi76]

Yes, yes, but I want to know more. I want an Aerys POV dammit. Oh well, too late.

[Morienthar]

Yes, yes, but I want to know more. I want an Aerys POV dammit. Oh well, too late.

IF GRRM ever manages to finish ASoIaF and write a prequel,Maybe then.

[Blackfish Tully]

On topic: Anyone who lets their life be ruled by a vague prophesy is insane in my book :) As for targ madness, it doesn't sound like he's sporting it from what we are told in the books.

Even if that vague prophecy turns out to be true? Before the events of Game of Thrones I would agree with everybody here but when dead man rise up and attack the living and White Walkers and Dragons return to the world I think you need to reevaluate your thinking. The Targaryen's have always been heavily invested in prophecy and especially since they were supposedly saved from the doom by believing on a prophecy.

[corbon]

As to why the people did not protest at targ incest - they did but they were brutally put down. Incest was the cause of the faith militant uprising if you recall. So incest was not really accepted so much as forced upon westeros.The truth is that the Targs saw themselves as above westerosi law( which bans incest and polygamy).

Incest yes, polygamy, no. Go find some evidence that there were ever any issues with Polygamy, but you won't because there isn't any.

And its still a ridiculous straw man. No one had a problem with Aerys' incest, no one should have any particular problem with Rhaegar's polygamy. Its legal, it has precedent historically, its socially accepted for Targaryens and there are no religious or moral strictures against it.

Anyone who had a problem with targ traditions was brutally put down and they thought their actions would not have any consequences since the targs were above reproach.

Omce, hundreds of years ago. The rest of this is hyperbole.

Here is the crux of the matter - Rhaegar was arrogant and did not think anyone would dare question his actions(no matter how stupid or irresponsible or illegal) since he was a targ prince. And it was this arrogance and utter lack of regard of the consequences of actions( a trait which both Rhaegar and Aerys portrayed) that led to the downfall of the targaryen dynasity.If you ask me Robert taught Rhaegar and other targs much needed lesson on the trident(a lesson which Danny seems intent on ignoring).

This is not just hyperbole, its logically deficient. If the statements above were true Rhaegar wouldn't have needed to hide with Lyanna. He could and would have done what he wanted and defy the rest. But he didn't, he acted with care and foresight to attempt to defuse the worst likely consequences of his actions.

Even if that vague prophecy turns out to be true? Before the events of Game of Thrones I would agree with everybody here but when dead man rise up and attack the living and White Walkers and Dragons return to the world I think you need to reevaluate your thinking. The Targaryen's have always been heavily invested in prophecy and especially since they were supposedly saved from the doom by believing on a prophecy.

This. In a world where magic and dragons and prophecy etc is realy, madness lies in denying them, not accepting them.

And the Targaryens are the only significant noble Valyrian family to survive the doom, and the only people in the world with dragons (when they had them) precisely because they followed a prophecy that everyone else scoffed at.

[King Robert's Warhammer]

He's not mad. Just the ultimate Goth heartbreaker.

[Ser Greg of House House]

Maybe in real life. But since this world has actual magic and prophecy, I don't think it's mad to start a war over one.

[Sullen]

He was nuttier than squirrel poop.

Fortunately, he had dashing good looks, so people called him eccentric instead.

[Ygrain]

On topic: Anyone who lets their life be ruled by a vague prophesy is insane in my book :) As for targ madness, it doesn't sound like he's sporting it from what we are told in the books.

Eh... at the time when winter is coming and the Others on the move, you really sure that the prophecy was dead wrong? I'd say that it was not a moment too soon.

All the Rhaegar apologism in this thread.

I really don't want to get too personal, but so far, no-one has answered my question whether they have entered an arranged marriage or had sex out of duty. Somehow, I strongly suspect that the answer is "no" in both cases, and I am somewhat baffled how easily some people condemn someone in whose shoes they never walked.

And believing that your magic penis has the power to save the world (a sentiment that most straight men could probably relate to) is not an excuse to run off with another man's fiancee.

Even if your man parts turn out to be magical.

Ah. So the biggest problem is that Lyanna is tagged "Robert's" and it's a mortal sin to take what belongs to another, regardless of what she might want?

As to why the people did not protest at targ incest - they did but they were brutally put down. Incest was the cause of the faith militant uprising if you recall. So incest was not really accepted so much as forced upon westeros.The truth is that the Targs saw themselves as above westerosi law( which bans incest and polygamy). Anyone who had a problem with targ traditions was brutally put down and they thought their actions would not have any consequences since the targs were above reproach. Here is the crux of the matter - Rhaegar was arrogant and did not think anyone would dare question his actions(no matter how stupid or irresponsible or illegal) since he was a targ prince. And it was this arrogance and utter lack of regard of the consequences of actions( a trait which both Rhaegar and Aerys portrayed) that led to the downfall of the targaryen dynasity.If you ask me Robert taught Rhaegar and other targs much needed lesson on the trident(a lesson which Danny seems intent on ignoring).

Yes. It was forced on Westeros, and once Westeros got accustomed to the idea that the Targs simply get their way, no-one batted a lash over it for a couple of hundred years. - Oh, and BTW, Westerosi law does not ban incest, it's a religious taboo ("a sin before gods old and new", as Catelyn recalls). Curiously, you do not find a single hint condemning polygamy, and you even get mentions about polygamy among the wildlings, without any derrogatory comments from the Nightwatch.

[Sullen]

Ah. So the biggest problem is that Lyanna is tagged "Robert's" and it's a mortal sin to take what belongs to another, regardless of what she might want?

In a situation when doing so can start a full-on continental war, well, yeah, kinda... especially the way it was done.

Lyanna formally refusing the betrothal would have been more appropriate, but instead they elope without warning, causing her family grief and seriously pissing off her asshole fiance who has a reputation for getting really mad when ticked off.

[WildBlood]

You have to remember that this was the norm in medieval times.

And that it is an effen book and these practices were completely normal in the world Maartin created...

[Direwolf of the Starks]

The main problem I have with the running off together theory is that they told no one about this. If Rhaegar had told Rickard the entire rebellion would have most likely never happened. And BTW I don't understand while people are condemning Brandon. If you had a sister and you thought she had been kidnapped and repeatedly raped you WOULD be pissed, scared, and frankly stupid.

[thewingedwolf]

Also I don't think Rhaegar was mad. Every character other than Robert remembers him as an upstanding individual. Barristan himself held Rhaegar in the highest of regards among Targaryans and he was Knighted by Egg himself ("Rhaegar, him most of all"). The problem is that people are judging these characters actions based on the real world. Yes if someone in real life read a prophecy and gave their life trying to fulfill it they would be insane. However, in a world in which his family controlled dragons with magic it is not much of a stretch.

I think it is important to keep in mind that not all events occuring in ASOIAF can be accurately viewed through a 21st century point of view (this is one but there are many others as well). I don't think Rhaegar was mad in the same terms as his father was.

If obsession was considered madness than most people on this forum would be considered far madder than Rhaegar ever was (me included).

[Ygrain]

In a situation when doing so can start a full-on continental war, well, yeah, kinda... especially the way it was done.

You’re speaking with the benefit of hindsight. Let me quote my earlier post:

Rhaegar DIDN'T start a war. We never hear about Rickard calling banners after Lyanna's abduction, not even after Brandon's imprisonment - instead, he acts as a loyal subject and goes to answer to his liege. Only when Aerys murders Brandon and Rickard and demands that Jon Arryn hands him over the heads of Ned and Robert does the Rebellion break out. Yes, Rhaegar set off the chain of events, but if not for Brandon's rash action and Aerys' mad response, it needn't have come to a war.

- Consider the RL parallel, which probably inspired the story:

John Lackland, King of England, had to set aside his wife for barenness. He abducted Isabela of Angouleme, a famed beauty of a powerful family, betrothed to another (and also aged something like 9-12). NO fighting started - her family went to the king of France (at that time, John's hypothetical sovereign) to get them justice done. Only when John refused an order to return Isabela did the fighting start - but not over Isabela, who became John's wife and mother of his heir, but because the two kings had to settle the issues of sovereignty. John lost but it still didn't change much.

So, no, Rhaegar wasn't mad. He knew that he would cause a shitstorm and probably went into hiding to avoid the situation that broke John's neck (i.e., to avoid disobeying an order of higher authority, because if he cannot be found, Aerys cannot order him anything) as well as repercussions from the Starks and Baratheons, such as being attacked or challenged (because it probably never occured to him that someone might be so idiotic as to try and challenge him if he's not at home). He simply couldn't predict everything. Whether he did what he did for love or prophecy or both, remains yet to be seen.

Lyanna formally refusing the betrothal would have been more appropriate, but instead they elope without warning, causing her family grief and seriously pissing off her asshole fiance who has a reputation for getting really mad when ticked off.

The main problem I have with the running off together theory is that they told no one about this. If Rhaegar had told Rickard the entire rebellion would have most likely never happened. And BTW I don't understand while people are condemning Brandon. If you had a sister and you thought she had been kidnapped and repeatedly raped you WOULD be pissed, scared, and frankly stupid.

Could you guys show me the piece of text which tells that they never told anyone? – Mind you: I’m not claiming that they definitely did. The thing is that we lack quite a lot of vital information: how Lyanna was taken, where from, who learned about it and how. Passing any judgement while ignorant of the whole situation is pretimely.

Concerning Brandon: well, if the Crown Prince gets the flak for letting his emotions get better of him, so can the heir of House Stark and the future Warden of the North. It’s not like he acted at the spur of the moment, he had whole days to contemplate before he reached KL. Plus, one more thing: I find it peculiar how intent he is on killing Rhaegar and never mentions Lyanna – really curious for the guy who supposedly freaked out over his kidnapped sister. However, his reaction fits pretty well for the indignant older brother who wants revenge for the stain on the family honour because his sister was seduced.

[Maegor the Cuddly]

Man was a jack, even if he wasn't mad, he wasn't as good of a guy as Targaryen Loyalists seem to remember him to be.

1. He seemed to convince himself he was PTWP: Albeit, we do not know much about the Prince Prophecy, but to outright claim, "Hey guys, I just figured it out, I am a messianic figure told of in prophecy from thousands of years ago" seems like a level of arrogance that I have yet to see exhibited by any character in the books themselves. And it doesn't, based off the text, seem like Aemon suggested it, he just was reading one day and decided, "Hey, I'm supposed to be the greatest warrior in the world..."

Hubris times eleven...

2. He ran off with his cousin's betrothed: He had to know the consequences of running away with a member of the House Stark who was betrothed to a Baratheon. Kidnapped or willing, it happened, and there was no way of saying, "Oh yeah, this'll work out, don't worry", especially if you are as intelligent as Rhaegar is described to be. So in other words:

Callous disregard for the other noble houses... A trait that his daddy showed to the fullest with his treatment of Tywin, his burning of Rickard and strangling of Brandon...

3. He never did anything to fix his mistakes: Okay, so he ran off, and when Brandon and Rickard were killed mercilessly by his father (which he apparently did nothing to try to stop...)or maybe when he heard that 4 out of the 7 Lords Paramount are raising their banners against the King, that maybe he realized it wasn't such a good idea to go ahead and run off with someone intricately connected with two of the most powerful houses on the continent, who then had the support of two of the other most powerful houses...

But he didn't try to fix his mistake. He obviously eloped with Lyanna, if the child was to be the Song of Ice and Fire, then he had to trust fate would give him the child. Give her back to Robert, and pass off the child as Robert's, just try to stop the realm from tearing itself apart... Try to apologize, make it up to the Starks, give his future children as wards maybe, whatever it took...

Nope, he simply didn't care if his actions threatened the realm at large's stability and even potential future existence... He was the apparently the only way that prophecy could come about, and if he didn't screw the entire kingdom over to do it, it wouldn't happen. (Funny how prophecies are like that huh?)

[Ygrain]

Man was a jack, even if he wasn't mad, he wasn't as good of a guy as Targaryen Loyalists seem to remember him to be.

1. He seemed to convince himself he was PTWP: Albeit, we do not know much about the Prince Prophecy, but to outright claim, "Hey guys, I just figured it out, I am a messianic figure told of in prophecy from thousands of years ago" seems like a level of arrogance that I have yet to see exhibited by any character in the books themselves. And it doesn't, based off the text, seem like Aemon suggested it, he just was reading one day and decided, "Hey, I'm supposed to be the greatest warrior in the world..."

Hubris times eleven...

2. He ran off with his cousin's betrothed: He had to know the consequences of running away with a member of the House Stark who was betrothed to a Baratheon. Kidnapped or willing, it happened, and there was no way of saying, "Oh yeah, this'll work out, don't worry", especially if you are as intelligent as Rhaegar is described to be. So in other words:

Callous disregard for the other noble houses... A trait that his daddy showed to the fullest with his treatment of Tywin, his burning of Rickard and strangling of Brandon...

3. He never did anything to fix his mistakes: Okay, so he ran off, and when Brandon and Rickard were killed mercilessly by his father (which he apparently did nothing to try to stop...)or maybe when he heard that 4 out of the 7 Lords Paramount are raising their banners against the King, that maybe he realized it wasn't such a good idea to go ahead and run off with someone intricately connected with two of the most powerful houses on the continent, who then had the support of two of the other most powerful houses...

But he didn't try to fix his mistake. He obviously eloped with Lyanna, if the child was to be the Song of Ice and Fire, then he had to trust fate would give him the child. Give her back to Robert, and pass off the child as Robert's, just try to stop the realm from tearing itself apart... Try to apologize, make it up to the Starks, give his future children as wards maybe, whatever it took...

Nope, he simply didn't care if his actions threatened the realm at large's stability and even potential future existence... He was the apparently the only way that prophecy could come about, and if he didn't screw the entire kingdom over to do it, it wouldn't happen. (Funny how prophecies are like that huh?)

Eh... you do realize that once Jon Arryn defied the king's order, returning Lyanna wouldn't change a thing? Or that there is no Westerosi instant messaging service or news broadcast that would allow him to keep in touch with the recent events? Have you taken into account that he may have learned about the fate of Rickard and Brandon only when they were dead?

Once again: condemnation based on incomplete facts, and disregarding a couple of known ones.

[Sullen]

You’re speaking with the benefit of hindsight. Let me quote my earlier post:

He "stole" a High Lord's fiance/Another High Lord's daughter.

It's not a question of hindsight, by doing so he's at the very least turning two kingdoms against him, it's not something you need to reflect upon for a long time to figure out.

Could you guys show me the piece of text which tells that they never told anyone? – Mind you: I’m not claiming that they definitely did. The thing is that we lack quite a lot of vital information: how Lyanna was taken, where from, who learned about it and how. Passing any judgement while ignorant of the whole situation is pretimely.

Concerning Brandon: well, if the Crown Prince gets the flak for letting his emotions get better of him, so can the heir of House Stark and the future Warden of the North. It’s not like he acted at the spur of the moment, he had whole days to contemplate before he reached KL. Plus, one more thing: I find it peculiar how intent he is on killing Rhaegar and never mentions Lyanna – really curious for the guy who supposedly freaked out over his kidnapped sister. However, his reaction fits pretty well for the indignant older brother who wants revenge for the stain on the family honour because his sister was seduced.

All testimony from the rebel side point to them not knowing Lyanna went willingly, we have no information working in favor of the inverse situation.

As for Brandon: Absolutely, he should be held responsible for his outburst, I would even go so far to say that the death penalty was appropriate.

[Ygrain]

He "stole" a High Lord's fiance/Another High Lord's daughter.

It's not a question of hindsight, by doing so he's at the very least turning two kingdoms against him, it's not something you need to reflect upon for a long time to figure out.

And yet, Rickard doesn't call the banners over Lyanna's abduction.

As I said above, Rhaegar most probably did expect a shitstorm, but not the particular one that happened.

All testimony from the rebel side point to them not knowing Lyanna went willingly, we have no information working in favor of the inverse situation.

Well... if Rickard knew that his daughter went willingly (via a letter or Benjen), would he have advertised the fact? As for Brandon, we do not know what he learned and from what source; as he wasn't an eye witness, the information he received might have been considerably twisted (and I think that intentional misinformation to exacerbate the issue cannot be entirely ruled out)

As for Brandon: Absolutely, he should be held responsible for his outburst, I would even go so far to say that the death penalty was appropriate.

Agreed.

[Maegor the Cuddly]

As for Brandon: Absolutely, he should be held responsible for his outburst, I would even go so far to say that the death penalty was appropriate.

And Rickard? What had he done?

Eh... you do realize that once Jon Arryn defied the king's order, returning Lyanna wouldn't change a thing? Or that there is no Westerosi instant messaging service or news broadcast that would allow him to keep in touch with the recent events? Have you taken into account that he may have learned about the fate of Rickard and Brandon only when they were dead?

Once again: condemnation based on incomplete facts, and disregarding a couple of known ones.

Correct me if I am wrong, I thought that Jon Arryn had to be brought in the fight by a marriage between Lysa Tully and Jon Arryn? That's what I got from the description of the situation...

What I got was:

1. Rhaegar takes Lyanna

2. Brandon threatens Rhaegar with death, Rickard and Brandon are captured

3. Rickard demands trial by combat, gets burned to death instead, Brandon strangles himself trying to save his father.

4. Word reaches Storm's End, Winterfell, the Eyrie, etc.

5. Impulsive Robert is the first to respond, claims he is going to war to save his wife. Eddard joins him due to the unjust execution of his father (and brother, possibly, based on what the law said on threatening princes) and rescuing of his sister.

6. The Tullys join the fight due to the marriage between Eddard and Catelyn, (A marriage intended to be between Brandon and Catelyn originally.)

7. Hoster Tully marries Lysa Tully to Jon Arryn to earn the Vale's swords to help fight in the war.

Once more, correct me if I am wrong.

As for Rhaegar not knowing about Brandon and Rickard's executions, I thought he took Lyanna to King's Landing? It's a big city, but something as big as a "Trial By Combat" between a Lord Paramount, who controlled half of the freaking realm (in size anyways) and the King... It had to generate some attention, and given that it was Rhaegar and Lyanna's fault they were there in the first place, he probably wanted to see what happened.

[Sullen]

And yet, Rickard doesn't call the banners over Lyanna's abduction.

As I said above, Rhaegar most probably did expect a shitstorm, but not the particular one that happened.

Rickard tried to solve the situation diplomatically first, it didn't work.

And if he expected a shitstorm of any serious proportions, then he simply shouldn't have done it. I seriously have no clue to what his "best case scenario" would have been.

Well... if Rickard knew that his daughter went willingly (via a letter or Benjen), would he have advertised the fact? As for Brandon, we do not know what he learned and from what source; as he wasn't an eye witness, the information he received might have been considerably twisted (and I think that intentional misinformation to exacerbate the issue cannot be entirely ruled out)

It is a possibility, but we do not possess any evidence that would support a third party igniting the conflict.

And Rickard? What had he done?

I agree that as far as we know, Rickard's execution was unfair.