Crackpot Was Rhaegar mad?

[Direwolf of the Starks]

And Rickard? What had he done?

Correct me if I am wrong, I thought that Jon Arryn had to be brought in the fight by a marriage between Lysa Tully and Jon Arryn? That's what I got from the description of the situation...

What I got was:

1. Rhaegar takes Lyanna

2. Brandon threatens Rhaegar with death, Rickard and Brandon are captured

3. Rickard demands trial by combat, gets burned to death instead, Brandon strangles himself trying to save his father.

4. Word reaches Storm's End, Winterfell, the Eyrie, etc.

5. Impulsive Robert is the first to respond, claims he is going to war to save his wife. Eddard joins him due to the unjust execution of his father (and brother, possibly, based on what the law said on threatening princes) and rescuing of his sister.

6. The Tullys join the fight due to the marriage between Eddard and Catelyn, (A marriage intended to be between Brandon and Catelyn originally.)

7. Hoster Tully marries Lysa Tully to Jon Arryn to earn the Vale's swords to help fight in the war.

Once more, correct me if I am wrong.

As for Rhaegar not knowing about Brandon and Rickard's executions, I thought he took Lyanna to King's Landing? It's a big city, but something as big as a "Trial By Combat" between a Lord Paramount, who controlled half of the freaking realm (in size anyways) and the King... It had to generate some attention, and given that it was Rhaegar and Lyanna's fault they were there in the first place, he probably wanted to see what happened.

no he took her to the tower of joy

[Ygrain]

And Rickard? What had he done?

Correct me if I am wrong, I thought that Jon Arryn had to be brought in the fight by a marriage between Lysa Tully and Jon Arryn? That's what I got from the description of the situation...

What I got was:

1. Rhaegar takes Lyanna

2. Brandon threatens Rhaegar with death, Rickard and Brandon are captured

3. Rickard demands trial by combat, gets burned to death instead, Brandon strangles himself trying to save his father.

4. Word reaches Storm's End, Winterfell, the Eyrie, etc.

5. Impulsive Robert is the first to respond, claims he is going to war to save his wife. Eddard joins him due to the unjust execution of his father (and brother, possibly, based on what the law said on threatening princes) and rescuing of his sister.

6. The Tullys join the fight due to the marriage between Eddard and Catelyn, (A marriage intended to be between Brandon and Catelyn originally.)

7. Hoster Tully marries Lysa Tully to Jon Arryn to earn the Vale's swords to help fight in the war.

Once more, correct me if I am wrong.

As for Rhaegar not knowing about Brandon and Rickard's executions, I thought he took Lyanna to King's Landing? It's a big city, but something as big as a "Trial By Combat" between a Lord Paramount, who controlled half of the freaking realm (in size anyways) and the King... It had to generate some attention, and given that it was Rhaegar and Lyanna's fault they were there in the first place, he probably wanted to see what happened.

1. or they elope; no reliable info

2. partly – Brandon is imprisoned and Rickard comes to answer for his crime.

3.right

4+5. Aerys orders Ned and Robert to be executed. They are, however, currently at the Vale as Jon Arryn’s wards, and he raises his banners to defend them.

6.+7 the Tullys join the fight in exchange for the marriage between Ned and Cat and Jon Arryn and Lysa (who is soiled, therefore damaged goods and worthless for a future marriage)

We do not know where Rhaegar took Lyanna. At some point, they must have spent some happy time together at “tower of joy”, or else Rhaegar wouldn’t have referred to it as such. They were definitely never in KL, as Aerys hears the first time about the affair from Brandon, and he has no clue where to look for them afterwards.

Rickard tried to solve the situation diplomatically first, it didn't work.

And if he expected a shitstorm of any serious proportions, then he simply shouldn't have done it. I seriously have no clue to what his "best case scenario" would have been..

Best-case? OK, I’ll give it a try:

Starks and Baratheons get mightily pissed and apply with Aerys as the only authority above Rhaegar for justice. However, not being able to locate Rhaegar, there is nothing Aerys can do, even though he searches far and wide. Meanwhile, Rhaegar and Lyanna marry and stay in hiding until Lyanna gets pregnan Then they come out of hiding and ask forgiveness instead of permission. Rickard becomes a new Hand, Robert gets another bride (one hot blonde with a fabulously rich father is still free), Lyanna’s child will be betrothed to one of Elia’s. Not sure where deposing Aerys fits here, perhaps Rhaegar intended to kill two birds with one stone and secretly garner support.

[Sullen]

Best-case? OK, I’ll give it a try:

Starks and Baratheons get mightily pissed and apply with Aerys as the only authority above Rhaegar for justice. However, not being able to locate Rhaegar, there is nothing Aerys can do, even though he searches far and wide. Meanwhile, Rhaegar and Lyanna marry and stay in hiding until Lyanna gets pregnan Then they come out of hiding and ask forgiveness instead of permission. Rickard becomes a new Hand, Robert gets another bride (one hot blonde with a fabulously rich father is still free), Lyanna’s child will be betrothed to one of Elia’s. Not sure where deposing Aerys fits here, perhaps Rhaegar intended to kill two birds with one stone and secretly garner support.

That seems rather implausibly positive.

[Ygrain]

That seems rather implausibly positive.

Well, you wanted best-case, right? :D

- I guess I left out a lot of negotiating and smoothing ruffled feathers, but on the whole, I believe that without Brandon's action and Aerys' mad response, diplomatic solution would have worked, especially as Rickard seemed inclined towards one.

[Maegor the Cuddly]

That seems rather implausibly positive.

Yeah... Something more along the lines of...

Rickard demands extra rights for the Lord Paramount of the North, which causes a rift between Aerys and Rickard, as well as between the Starks and Baratheons, as Robert is pissed that Rickard failed to try to search harder for his bride. The North is practically independent, but now they're more isolated than before, especially diplomatically. The Baratheons are still pissed, and would need to be pacified or crushed, the latter would result in a similar war than before, only minus Northern Forces and Eddard's tactics. The former would keep the peace, but would take much diplomatic maneuvering, and perhaps some form of punishment for Rhaegar once he is found. Forcing Lyanna to drink Moon Tea if they find her before she gives birth?

[Morienthar]

Well, you wanted best-case, right? :D

- I guess I left out a lot of negotiating and smoothing ruffled feathers, but on the whole, I believe that without Brandon's action and Aerys' mad response, diplomatic solution would have worked, especially as Rickard seemed inclined towards one.

I have always believed that if Robert died at the Battle of the Bells,Rheagar would have turned against his father and joined the rebellion.

Not sure how it would have worked but Lyanna was still alive and she probably could have explained it to Hoster,Jon and Ned convincingly enough.

[Maegor the Cuddly]

I have always believed that if Robert died at the Battle of the Bells,Rheagar would have turned against his father and joined the rebellion.

Not sure how it would have worked but Lyanna was still alive and she probably could have explained it to Hoster,Jon and Ned convincingly enough.

Wait, so he kills the leader of the rebellion... And then takes over the rebellion? That's a strange way of getting the throne...

Women, even women like Lyanna, didn't have many rights back then, and she'd probably have just been taken back, presumed to have been forced to give a false testimony, and they continue the war, maybe under the pretense of "we will fight until we have our pardons."?

[The Mother of The Others]

If he was right about the prophecy totally needing to be fulfilled in time to save everyone, and Jon is the result of all the controversial crotch-fighting so long ago, then wouldn't we have to say Rheagar's insanity was totally spot-on correct?

Concensus (in Westeros) was Rheagar wasn't nuts, but look at who he was standing next to in the family photos! If he was noticeably not as nuts as Aerys that isn't really saying much. Plus, the Rhaegzer was acting oddly. chasing after prophecy made him get into genital jeopardy and then the realm blew up. either there really had been whispered plotting along with the hanky panky, or Aerys had added in that part himself. Hmmmm. I don't know if Rheagar was insane or living life to the fullest, you know. Maybe it was visionary rock star insanity.

[Leto]

Eh... at the time when winter is coming and the Others on the move, you really sure that the prophecy was dead wrong? I'd say that it was not a moment too soon.

kinda,

- bad stuff will happen (bad stuff always happen, especially the kind of bad stuff that has happened before)

- Mr hero will save the day (hero can also mean heroine or any other metaphorical substitute)

- said hero will be born, salt, smoke etc (can be, and is interpreted as anything between a tear and water vapour to a burning ship in the ocean)

-flaming sword (or the nights watch or a dragon or an insane jester?)

etc etc

Anyone or anything can fit that bill. Basically if the historically repeating 'bad shit' is avoided or mitigated (by at least some) the propjicy can be interpreted as true. If not, noone will live to tell the tale that it was wrong. So ya, I don't care much for prophecies, and not in the context of this book either so I doubt Martin will give us a promised prince..just my oppinion though :)

[Maegor the Cuddly]

If he was right about the prophecy totally needing to be fulfilled in time to save everyone, and Jon is the result of all the controversial crotch-fighting so long ago, then wouldn't we have to say Rheagar's insanity was totally spot-on correct?

Concensus (in Westeros) was Rheagar wasn't nuts, but look at who he was standing next to in the family photos! If he was noticeably not as nuts as Aerys that isn't really saying much. Plus, the Rhaegzer was acting oddly. chasing after prophecy made him get into genital jeopardy and then the realm blew up. either there really had been whispered plotting along with the hanky panky, or Aerys had added in that part himself. Hmmmm. I don't know if Rheagar was insane or living life to the fullest, you know. Maybe it was visionary rock star insanity.

My question is, if he believed the prophecy, why did he feel the need to force it? That's kind of the point of a prophecy is: "This WILL happen" not, "If you try really really hard to MAKE this happen it will happen..."

[Ser Creighton]

Concensus (in Westeros) was Rheagar wasn't nuts, but look at who he was standing next to in the family photos! If he was noticeably not as nuts as Aerys that isn't really saying much. Plus, the Rhaegzer was acting oddly. chasing after prophecy made him get into genital jeopardy in secret and perhaps without permission. Then the realm blew up thanks to the running around and whispered plotting and hanky panky. I don't know if that's insanity or living life to the fullest, you know. Maybe it was the best kind of insanity---visionary rock star insanity. If he was right about the prophecy totally needing to be fulfilled in time to save everyone, and Jon is the result of all the controversial crotch fighting so long ago, then wouldn't we have to say Rheagar's insanity was totally spot-on correct?

I didn't know anyone in Westeros was capable of doing a clinical review.

As a child Rhaegar grew up in a disfunctional house, incest was considered appropreate behavior but was the only family that actually followed this practice., His father suffered from a mix bag of extreme paranoia possibly Schizoid personality disorder, pyromania, and Sociopathy (anti social personality disorder), he was amixed bag of behavioral disorders, personality disorders and anxiety disorders.

Of course living in such a house is bound to effect a person. Rhaegar showed clinical signs of multiple disorders, and his behavior could at times be labled ego syntonic. As a child he indicated signs of anti social behavior showing no intrest in other kids. His pattern of performing for crowds weather it be his Harp, the tilts or that little stunt he pulled with Lyanna indicate Narcissistic patters possibly Narcissistic personality disorder. He shows a distinct lack of understanding the consequences of his actions, perhaps do to a spoiled upbringing in which he was never taught he was wrong. Signs of sub-clinical OCD with his constant mastering everything he did, and his obsession with a prophecy. Showed a lack of emapthy for anything other than himself, tying into Narcissistic personality disorder, suffered through bouts of depression and isolation also tied to both OCD and Narcissistic personality disorder. Possible stunted emotional development indicated by his desire for a 14 year old adolesent defined as Ephophilia.

The clinical diagnosis for Rhaegar would be somwhere between hot mess and ticking time bomb.

Ephophilia

Narcissistic personality disorder

Sub clinical OCD

Bouts of depression and issolation, supports almost all forms of personality and anxiety disorders.

Emotionally stunted struggles with understanding consequences of his actions, struggles with responsibility.

Lack of Empathy for the Starks, Elia, his children, Robert, and his own Mother. Understood that he should do something but did not do anything in favor of his own desires for a 14 year old adolesent girl. Supports Narcissitic Personality disorder.

Impulse control

Anti social behavior as a child, could be enviromental or the early stages of any number or personality or behavioral disorders.

Both highly intelligent and talented, but indicates signs of personality disorders, behavioral disorders and anxity disorders, but not in the same classification or to the same degree as his father.

Rhaegar has more than enough signs to indicate multiple disorders of varying degrees.

[Ygrain]

I didn't know anyone in Westeros was capable of doing a clinical review.

As a child Rhaegar grew up in a disfunctional house, incest was considered appropreate behavior but was the only family that actually followed this practice., His father suffered from a mix bag of extreme paranoia possibly Schizoid personality disorder, pyromania, and Sociopathy (anti social personality disorder), he was amixed bag of behavioral disorders, personality disorders and anxiety disorders.

Of course living in such a house is bound to effect a person. Rhaegar showed clinical signs of multiple disorders, and his behavior could at times be labled ego syntonic. As a child he indicated signs of anti social behavior showing no intrest in other kids. His pattern of performing for crowds weather it be his Harp, the tilts or that little stunt he pulled with Lyanna indicate Narcissistic patters possibly Narcissistic personality disorder. He shows a distinct lack of understanding the consequences of his actions, perhaps do to a spoiled upbringing in which he was never taught he was wrong. Signs of sub-clinical OCD with his constant mastering everything he did, and his obsession with a prophecy. Showed a lack of emapthy for anything other than himself, tying into Narcissistic personality disorder, suffered through bouts of depression and isolation also tied to both OCD and Narcissistic personality disorder. Possible stunted emotional development indicated by his desire for a 14 year old adolesent defined as Ephophilia.

The clinical diagnosis for Rhaegar would be somwhere between hot mess and ticking time bomb.

Ephophilia

Narcissistic personality disorder

Sub clinical OCD

Bouts of depression and issolation, supports almost all forms of personality and anxiety disorders.

Emotionally stunted struggles with understanding consequences of his actions, struggles with responsibility.

Lack of Empathy for the Starks, Elia, his children, Robert, and his own Mother. Understood that he should do something but did not do anything in favor of his own desires for a 14 year old adolesent girl. Supports Narcissitic Personality disorder.

Impulse control

Anti social behavior as a child, could be enviromental or the early stages of any number or personality or behavioral disorders.

Both highly intelligent and talented, but indicates signs of personality disorders, behavioral disorders and anxity disorders, but not in the same classification or to the same degree as his father.

Rhaegar has more than enough signs to indicate multiple disorders of varying degrees.

Self-appointed "psychologists" are never good news. Self-appointed "psychologists" with a personal bias are even worse.

Yes, I get it, you don't like Rhaegar, your call. Rationalizing it on the basis of false arguments and missing information doesn't make it sound any truer, though.