House Dayne in TWOW theories

[Zupoleon]

The theory is that the Valyrians are descended from the Daynes.

My mistake; I misread that. Interesting, but yeah, not likely.

[yakaman]

I think this is a case of hoping that a fan favorite gets more screen time. I don't think Dawn is Lightbringer - I think's its just a sword with a really cool name and backstory in the hands of one of the most romantic characters in the story. You would not use an ancient legendary sword of prophecy in common battle, regardless of how badass the title of office (and "Sword of the Morning" is as badass as it gets). The best case for the House Dayne's heavy involvement in TWoW would center around their secret knowledge of R+L=J, but it just seems like a stretch. Why would House Dayne care about the son of Raegar's second wife? It's not like J is related to the Martells - in fact, might not the Martells (and by proxy, Dorne bannerman) feel some resentment towards J?

Secret conspiracies rely on everyone involved keeping absolutely quiet about the secret. The more involved, the less likely the secret will be kept for long. If R+L=J is true, and as delicious a secret as it is in-universe, it makes sense that the absolute minimum number of people know the truth of it. Howland Reed and Ned, and that's it.

If Dorne is to play a large part in TWoW (and I believe it will), then let it be Doran and his plans that are highlighted. House Dorne has been on the sidelines for the entire story so far, planning and scheming very patiently. Let us see them in action.

Edited for Grammar.

[Persepolis]

Darkstar will get his hands on Dawn. I think through force/stealing it.

Shit will go crazy.

Yeah, maybe he will finally be able to kill little girls without fucking up.

[Ser Creighton]

People think Ser Gerold Dayne is actually Rheagar in disguise. I don't think so because Rhaegar would be older than Gerold and the app confirmed that he's in his late 20s.

Martin confirmed Rhaegar is dead and his body burned after the battle of the Trident.

[Dryhtscipe]

I think Darkstar will get Dawn, whether legitimately or by nefarious means... probably the latter. By this time, Edric will be ~14 years old and at the same age Robb wasn't as tall as Ice, another greatsword so even given how light both blades were I doubt either of them at that age would be strong enough to use them.

They're swords. They're already light. Swords are not heavy. Not even a greatsword.

A greatsword such as those described in the novels would probably weigh in the region of 2-3.5kg (as I'm assuming from descriptions that they're very big; they're too big to be worn at the hip, and are slung at the back, which implies >100cm length at least). If we assume Ice and Dawn are noteworthy in being light (compared to other swords of similar size), they could weigh as little as just a kilo.

A 14 year old could wield one just fine, so long as he was properly trained and used it more like a polearm than a longsword (as zweihanders were indeed used; they were effectively an anti-pike weapon). Bear in mind that a really, really big sword might be as long as 180cm (5 feet and 10 inches), and further bear in mind that the time such large swords were used (the 17th century or so), the average height in Europe for men was around 5 feet and 5 inches.

[Lion of Judah]

I think Edric resurfaces when Doran calls his banners, I assume he did not stay with Lady Stoneheart so he could return home and tell his aunt of Dondarrion's death.

[Ser Creighton]

Not an expert but I have discussed House Dayne at length on this board.

According to Ran the world book will contain new information on house Dayne but he didn't say how much or how little.

House Dayne is among the oldest houses in Westeros dating back some 10,000+ years, no exact date is given.

The Daynes are stoney Dornish, that's not Andal blood that's first men blood. It was the first men who fought the Others, 2000 years before the Andal invasion.

If Starfall is as ancient as Winterfell or more so as the first men came up from the south, then Dawn probably dates back to near the time of it's building as the stories are tied together. Dawn could easily be be old enough to be Lightbringer given the age of it's house and the story of the falling star it is said to be forged from.

Azor Ahai may have been a member of this house.

House Dayne more than anyone knows Jon's true lineage. Edric "Ned" Dayne relates the story of his wet nurse at Starfall named Wylla, a name Eddard "Ned" Stark has used before in relating Jon's mother, though it is doubtful that Eddard told the truth. According to Edric, Ashara was in love with Eddard as he was told by his aunt and killed herself over the loss of his love. Wylla the wet nurse tells Edric she is Jon's mother. It's doubtful that Wylla is telling the truth. As what house would keep the lover of the man who killed the lords brother and caused the death of his sister as it's wet nurse it also does not explain why Ned would take Jon away from his mother. Both Allyria and Wylla are lying about Jon's past, both only have one reason to lie. To protect Jon and why would they choose to do that? The stories of Wylla and Allyria conflict with one another. Eddard also uses Wylla as his scape goat. This shows a unity in the lie between Stark and Dayne. But there seems to be little reason for them to lie to protect Jon.

Eddard holds Arthur Dayne is high esteem, referring to him as "Splendid" and "the finest Knight he ever saw." He speaks of nobody surrounding those events with this kind of esteem. Eddard also becomes sad when thinking about Dayne who is also said to have a sad smile in Eddards dream, and also Jaime's dream on the weirwood stump depicts him as sad. Jaime also regarding him with high admiration to the point he even said he wanted to be him.

So even though Eddard killed Arthur and Arthur was involved with the abduction of Lyanna, Eddard hold him in high regard. Ashara supposedly killed herself over Eddard and house Dayne supposedly kept Eddards lover as a wet nurse. The wet nurse to their future lord Edric in fact. Both Wylla and Eddard use the same story to hide Jon's secret. Edric is given a name just a little bit to close to "Ned" Starks, a man you would think brought extreme pain to this house. These two houses are showing a certain for of allegiance to one another with no real given reason. The Daynes are the part of the Tower of Joy that make little sense. Why help the Starks?

It supports the story of Ashara and Ned being Jon's parents more than anything. The Starks and the Daynes are the blood of AA, first men blood. This also lends support to Jon being AA come again and Lightbringer being Dawn. This is the old blood, the blood that fought and defeated the others.

However R+L=J has more support to it's theory, however it is not a complete theory and has it's own fare share of holes. R+L=J could be the greatest Red herring of all time or it could simply be the truth of the matter. Lyanna could have had a child but that child with an ill mother on her death bed and no real medical attention could of died not long after birth. Ned never made a bee line to Starfall, he tore down the tower of Joy and built graves for everyone. Not really the actions of a man who has a child without a food source and is days from anyplace that could help.

While I find R+L=J to be the hot outcome right now of Jon's parents, I would not write off A+N=J just yet. Ned may have only lied to protect Ashara's name and never felt comfortable telling Jon about his mother because of how she died. Though I fully admit R+L=J the more likely scenario. Well at least those are probably his parents, but I don't by the full fan story surrounding it.

As for Darkstar, me and Fiddlelinger, or was it Fingerlittle, or was it Diddlefinger, maybe Fingerdiddle, anyway. Me and one of the Littlefinger fans got to talking about the possibility that Gerold Dayne who is on the run in Dorne. Well just maybe we get a prologue with him, hiding out at the ruins of the Tower of Joy perhaps for a little on sight reveal or teaser. After all it's in the Boneway which was on only two ways in and out of Dorne by land. We may also get some details on how House Dayne views what happened there, though as usual not to be trusted as it comes from a biased POV.

I think Dawn is getting ready for a comeback one way or another. In Lyanna's crypt I think you have one of a few things. A ruby, the body of a baby, maybe both, or Dawn. Although I suspect Howland may well retrieve it and bring it to Jon.

Of late I have found myself rooting for Ashara and Ned being Jon's parents and Jon being a true descendant of AA. Lost my taste for R+L=J, at least the heavily contrived love story that is something out of Twilight that some fans have come up with. I know some fans don't think it's obvious with R+L=J or never noticed it but Martin beats us over the head with the stuff in the books Rhaegar is talked about in the books no less than 258 times. He brings that guy up an lot for such a big secret. He is hard not to notice and so is his story with Lyanna. I am going back to neutral with Jon's parents until I get more information. I feel like I am being duped at this point, not sure if it's Martin or the fan theory surrounding it. But I don't mind waiting and seeing, can't prove anyting till it's all said and done anyway.

[Lord Reaver]

Alright, chill. I am clearly mistaken on the weight of swords. Incidentally, though - it is mentioned as a feat of strength for Gregor Clegane to be the only man able to wield a 6ft greatsword in one hand, and even if this sword was a few kg heavier than most others, it's hardly a feat of strength for a grown man of any size to swing around 5kg for a while.

The main reason for using two hands instead of one is not predominantly the weight of the weapon itself. While you might be able to "swing around" a greatsword with one hand, your speed, control and power would be very reduced compared to a two handed grip. The fact Gregor does this without using two hands speaks of his strength, it isn't the fact that he's able to lift it at all (anyone can) but that he can actually use it effectively in a combat situation. Same thing applies to Robert and his hammer, btw.

A Song of Ice and Fire is set in a secondary medieval world, but fighting styles as you mentioned were not developed until renaissance times.

Mmmm, not quite. The earliest surviving manual for fighting is I:33, which has been dated to around year 1300, well before what is usally called the renaissance period. Certainly, the later manuals are more detailed, but then the question becomes if that is simply due to a greater survival rate, one would expect more material to survive from later periods, after all.

So far as the height thing is concerned, Gregor Clegane is 8 ft tall. Sandor is shorter, but not by a ridiculous amount... and many people in the series are described as tall in a similar way to Sandor. There was a page on it yesterday, actually. In any case, I am certain that the average height of men in ASoIaF is not 5''5.

I agree. And neither was it for european males in the medieval period. It wasn't until later that severely restrictive diets led to the decrease in general height.

Not that any of this matters, we cannot use any data or whatever from real life and transpose it to ASoIaF to prove an argument. It's a fantasy story, after all.

Well yes it's fantasy, but one has to assume the laws of physics are unchanged (nothing so far indicates otherwise, magical creatures excempt). Thus, when asking whether a 14 year old could wield a sword or not, it's valid to think about it in such terms.

[unSonofStannis]

I think Darkstar and Edric have been working together this whole time, don't ask me how. I think they're also gonna be baddies and overthrow the Martells and ally with Crow's Eye and devastate the Reach and they've had it coming.

[Dryhtscipe]

Incidentally, though - it is mentioned as a feat of strength for Gregor Clegane to be the only man able to wield a 6ft greatsword in one hand, and even if this sword was a few kg heavier than most others, it's hardly a feat of strength for a grown man of any size to swing around 5kg for a while.

Yeah. Either GRRM is falling into the "swords are heavy" trope (which is not uncommon; lots of people, even scholars on the time periods in question, fall into the trap), or the point is more that he's able to wield it effectively. A six foot sword is unwieldy as all hell. Waving it around with one hand and actually achieving anything other than looking like a prized tit is a grand attainment all by itself.

It's also worth noting that five kilos isn't actually a tiny bit of weight - it's quite heavy. Imagine holding five bags of sugar in the palm of one hand, then waving them around for an hour... not exactly easy work!

So far as the height thing is concerned, Gregor Clegane is 8 ft tall. Sandor is shorter, but not by a ridiculous amount... and many people in the series are described as tall in a similar way to Sandor. There was a page on it yesterday, actually. In any case, I am certain that the average height of men in ASoIaF is not 5''5.

In fairness, there were plenty of tall people in Europe when the average height was 5'5". The average height now in most of Europe for men is only around 5'9" - yet there are plenty of people well over six feet.

Eight feet does seem fairly amazing, but then Robert Wadlow in the 19th century was 8'11"... and check out this guy.

Also, see this. Mostly for the funny.

[Dryhtscipe]

Mmmm, not quite. The earliest surviving manual for fighting is I:33, which has been dated to around year 1300, well before what is usally called the renaissance period. Certainly, the later manuals are more detailed, but then the question becomes if that is simply due to a greater survival rate, one would expect more material to survive from later periods, after all.

The point was more that fighting techniques for very large two-handed swords were not developed until later, primarily because nobody was using very large two-handed swords until later.

Of course, longsword techniques were very developed, and longswords were still pretty... uh, long.

It kind of depends on what GRRM means by "greatsword". Are they actual greatswords - IE, a zweihander, a sword that can only be used with two hands (and the text seems to imply that, since it's remarkable that Clegane can wield it with just one) - or is it a longsword? It's a bit odd to have greatswords in such an "early" setting, though.

[Faint]

If Ashara Dayne ever reappears, say, if she is Quaithe, things could get really interesting. It is funny how much mystery surrounds this house. Their lord is missing. Darkstar is an enigma. Ashara Dayne is both. And we have yet to meet Allyria Dayne.

[King of Winters]

If Ashara Dayne ever reappears, say, if she is Quaithe, things could get really interesting. It is funny how much mystery surrounds this house. Their lord is missing. Darkstar is an enigma. Ashara Dayne is both. And we have yet to meet Allyria Dayne.

I'd like it if we got a prolouge or epilogue with Allyria at Starfall and giving us some info on the Daynes and maybe what they know.

[OberynBlackfyre]

I think the Daynes could almost definitely be the descendants of the original AA because of the fact that they have Valyrian qualities without being VAlyrian.....and in fact, qualities and looks that NO OTHER First Men share whatsoever.

IN this world, GRRM loves showing attributes through things like hair color, and eye color. And the only people who have had purple eyes other than Targaryens, has been House Dayne.

Why? Simply because I think this is an attribute that GRRM uses to show people who are touched by magic.....specifically fire magic or dragons blood.

Just like Greenseers are marked by either having moss green eyes or being albino, those who are marked with magic in other senses bear the Silver hair and Violet Eyes.

[Pecan]

Following on this idea that the Daynes are descendants of Azor Ahai and the guardians of Lightbringer (aka Dawn), I wonder about the role of the Hightowers. I was looking at the wiki and it places the founding of their house as the "Age of Dawn" or Dawn Age, which makes them First Men descendants. Also, their house words are "we light the way", which is interesting.

So, in the Daynes and the Hightowers, we have two of the most mysterious noble houses in ASOIAF. Both Houses are in the south, both trace their roots to the First Men, and both have an association to light.

[Wmarshal]

Edric is a young hero in the making, him and Auguy are screaming dragonslayers to me.

[Hangover of the Morning]

The Daynes are definitely an odd bunch. I am intrigued by them as much as the next man and hope to find out more about them in the next books.

Why did George give the Dayenes Valyrian-like features? They might have had a common ancestor with the Valyrians or be the descendants of Azor Ahai but that hardly requires them having interchangeable looks with the Targs? I loathe secret identity theories (besides Jon) but I do wonder if there is/was a Targaryen who is in fact a Dayne or vice versa. I can't think of any good non-crackpotish candidates though.

[OberynBlackfyre]

Following on this idea that the Daynes are descendants of Azor Ahai and the guardians of Lightbringer (aka Dawn), I wonder about the role of the Hightowers. I was looking at the wiki and it places the founding of their house as the "Age of Dawn" or Dawn Age, which makes them First Men descendants. Also, their house words are "we light the way", which is interesting.

So, in the Daynes and the Hightowers, we have two of the most mysterious noble houses in ASOIAF. Both Houses are in the south, both trace their roots to the First Men, and both have an association to light.

The Hightowers and Daynes are honestly my two favorite smaller Houses. I think that the Hightowers could honestly just be a very prestigious and well educated family (given their protection and close proximity to The Citadel) and the Daynes.....well so far we have no real GOOD explanation of their inception. They are First Men blood, with Valyrian traits......who knows.

[Good Guy Garlan]

I'd bet a significant amount of money on Darkstar becoming one of Aegon's Kingsguard, possibly with Dawn.

Like, that's one of the few theories I'm a 100% sure it's gonna happen

[King of Winters]

The Daynes are definitely an odd bunch. I am intrigued by them as much as the next man and hope to find out more about them in the next books.

Why did George give the Dayenes Valyrian-like features? They might have had a common ancestor with the Valyrians or be the descendants of Azor Ahai but that hardly requires them having interchangeable looks with the Targs? I loathe secret identity theories (besides Jon) but I do wonder if there is/was a Targaryen who is in fact a Dayne or vice versa. I can't think of any good non-crackpotish candidates though.

There's actually a theory as to why the Daynes and Valyrians have the same features.