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teemo

[BOOK SPOILERS] Nitpick without repercussion?

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Regarding "Ned loves my hair":

1) Its a thought in Cats head, so I don't even know how some of you consider it a line

2) Where does it fit in in the context of the scene without seeming out of nowhere?

True, it was a monologue, but could work well being spoken out loud. But yes I do agree with your point #2 because without that really devastating paragraph being worded out loud as a whole, the line would seem rather random.

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Based on the preview from next episode, we might see glimpses of the massacre in the camps.There's a shot of Roose on the battlements, observing the carnage below, as well as numerous shots of riders and Stark and Tully banners on fire.

Wow, just looked it up. That Roose scene in it is definitely what I was looking for. Glad it'll be shown!

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Only a few very minor nitpicks this episode:

1) Gilly calling the wildlings "wildlings" when she should be calling her people "free folk"

2) "Ned loves my hair"- see my post above.

3) No clawing of the face for Cat. Although I understand the omission for cosmetics reasons; it's Tyrion's nose 2.0. I imagine Lady Stoneheart will already be a challenge in the make-up chair without her facial scars.

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I think the face scratching was okay to cut (I'm sure they considered it but decided it was just not going to work), but her not going mad and then being killed was weird. Like I said before, she was only killed because she went mad, otherwise she'd be a hostage like Edmure. And yeah, I have to admit the throat-slashing looked pretty fake. In movies I have to usually turn away because throat/wrist slashing just jars me, but I re-watched this several times without issue.

Not sure why they changed them from being terrible musicians to "great ones." Why? Just seemed like a pointless change. Roose Bolton could have done his thing a little more slowly...I never imagined it like that. Also, Grey Wind's demise was pretty lame. It was horrifying how it was in front of Arya, but he didn't even get a chance to kill anything. As far as not doing enough justice to Rains of Castamere, my Unsullied friend actually noted immediately, "isn't that the Lannister song? Why?"

But to be honest, this was much better than I expected. They could have probably tightened it up a bit and honestly, Dany didn't feel like she belonged at all in this episode. They could have cut her and given more time to the Starks.

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I don't normally post in these threads, but....

I didn't like Richard Madden's acting in that final scene. I mean, you're holding your dead, pregnant wife in your arms, can I get some tears, some kind of facial expression that bespeaks you're grief and horror? Or maybe just some slight indication that you've got several crossbolts in you and that it kind of hurts :laugh:

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meh. I want to love this episode. I really do. It was an amazing episode, but the RW fell kinda short, and that just ruins the whole thing. Here are my nitpicks:

Like others are saying, it was getting kinda comical with the hit-and-run throat cuttings. Frey jumps into the frame, cuts a throat, jumps out. Bolton jumps into the frame, stabs Robb, jumps out. Cat screams and looks sad, then another Frey jumps in, cuts her throat, jumps out.

The awkward "Cat's getting suspicious" moments. Ruins the surprise.

The stabbing the pregnant chick in the belly. It was weird, and so over-the-top that it was almost comical.

Robb seemed to lack emotion, pain, fear, etc. Again, he just looked kinda sad. I mean, crossbow bolts in your chest, pregnant wife stabbed to death, bannermen slaughtered, and he just looked kinda sad.

Lack of Stark Bannermen

No Cat-goes-crazy-and-tears-her-face and her hair didn't get cut. Just a cheesy hit-and-run throat cut after an anti-climactic scream and anguished look.

weird timing in that whole scene. Lingering too long on some moments (Cat getting killed), rushing past others (Bolton stabbing Robb)

And then Arya......they needed that to be the last scene. It would be simple. Arya seeing all the chaos and commotion (strangely lacking in the show, like others have mentioned), and then just cut to black with the sound of her being hit and falling to the ground. The way they did it, there's no question about if she's dead or not.

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What was the point of casting Wendel if he did nothing and didn't have a single line. I wouldn't have even noticed the Merman sigil and know who he was if WiC didn't announce his casting last year during filming. Could have used him as an opportunity to at least set up the later story lines with Davos while also possibly replacing the other loyal bannerman such as Small Jon but nope few frames in the episode and don't even see him go down.

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I didn't care for how they seemed to take yet another crap on Jon. They make it so Ygrette actually knows Jon is still loyal to the Watch, yet she loves him so much that she keeps his secret and remains in love with him anyway. To then have him just run off and abandon her like that when she was fighting her own kind in an effort to defend him was just crappy. It made Jon look like an ass that was just using her and had no actual feelings for her. In the books his leaving seemed more understandable, here it seemed like he abandoned her needlessly.

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Grey Wind dying like a Lady. I was sure Arya was going to release him, then nothing.

No Arya fake death. I suppose they just thought that would be too much but they should've kept it.

The blood gushing out of people's throats was a bit comical. Felt like it belonged in a Tarantino film, not here.

The Jon scene was pretty bad. All around just badly choreographed and not at all believable: It looked like three guys were just hanging back watching Jon kill Orell.

The Bran warging was too sudden. It was too much for one episode, felt that would've been better having it spread out over the season.

Why didn't she shoot Jon?

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Why didn't she shoot Jon?

Ygritte is nocking an arrow in the preview for episode 10, so it could still happen. Maybe she follows Jon to Castle Black, shoots him and then he has to watch as his NW brothers kill her. He could still get some last words with her like in the book ("we should have stayed in that cave"). That's the most plausible explanation I can think of for how they will still get rid of her this season.

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I wanted the drums to be louder, but the musicians being adequate worked better, I think. At least, my brother knew something was up the moment he heard the rains of castamere, and he's Unsullied.

I loved the last scene, thought Fairley did a fairly good job (someone slap me, I deserve it, but really she was great.) and I don't think her scream was done bad. As for translation to the screen, catatonia definitely looks better than face-clawing, but I still wanted that.

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What was the point of casting Wendel if he did nothing and didn't have a single line. I wouldn't have even noticed the Merman sigil and know who he was if WiC didn't announce his casting last year during filming.

Did he definitely die? He could could in it next week.

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Grey Wind dying like a Lady. I was sure Arya was going to release him, then nothing.

This is my only nitpick for this episode. I was so sure that Arya would release Grey Wind and he would go down fighting. This scene really annoyed me.

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What was the point of casting Wendel if he did nothing and didn't have a single line. I wouldn't have even noticed the Merman sigil and know who he was if WiC didn't announce his casting last year during filming. Could have used him as an opportunity to at least set up the later story lines with Davos while also possibly replacing the other loyal bannerman such as Small Jon but nope few frames in the episode and don't even see him go down.

Meh, it's not that important. Wyman can talk about how he lost a son in the RW, and the effect would still be the same.

I do wish we had someone like the Smalljon to try and protect Robb, just to show that he still had the loyalty of most of his bannermen. Pretty much every northern lord the show has introduced apart from the Greatjon has been against Robb.

I loved the inclusion of the bread and salt, but it would have been nice if they went into further detail about the importance of guest right.

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My only real nitpick is when Sam knows all about the black gate. The whole thing in the books was really cool and mystical, but here it seems to be common knowledge. And I think we're really not getting coldhands, unless Bran meets him beyond the wall.

Other than that, I liked it. Watched with two unsullied and they were both pretty shocked, and they both knew already that Robb would die, they just didn't know how or when. I wish Catelyn would have clawed her face, but I am overall ok with how it turned out.

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hmm pretty sure my opinion completely flies in the face of the general consensus... but I thought the entire RW was completely awful. It was the most poorly done climactic scene thus far in the entire television series.

It felt completely staged. The way the camera angles were set up. The way all the major players just stood there alone in place (should of killed the lights and put a spotlight on them and had them say something really dramatic (or maybe sing it in Latin)). It was like some lame community theater rendition. From the second Cat screamed "Robb" and slapped Bolton for his betrayal I expected all hell to break loose, tables to be flipped people to be fighting for their lives and dying tragically. Instead it was total melodrama, Bolton bolts stage right across the entire scene with his henchman, which was hilarious looking, and Robb doesn't even react. Then a guy walks up uncontested to the Queen and stabs her repeatedly... anddd people still not responding. Robb full of arrows, a couple guys put their drinks down and stand up! The timing during the entire thing is completely drawn out in some places and feels like it's on fast forward in others. The stabbing is quick, then she falls to the floor grunting in slow motion. Cat instantly transitions to catatonia mid murder but then we have this weird drawn out bit before someone comes from stage right to slit her throat. The gore is overdone in the wrong way, gore is perfectly fine for a scene like this... if it's realistic, but this was comical cartoon or anime gore unfortunately. Robb the man of action young wolf was just.. confused and mildly sad the entire time, maybe the food disagreed with him? I didn't like the change to CATatonic cat either (harhar!). Completely awful.

In other news, no cold hands? Bran stuff slightly rushed but didn't bother me too much, Rickon actually had a nice little performance I thought. Jon stuff crammed but again somewhat acceptable. Dany could of waited for the entire episode titled after her... but eh... minor nitpicks.

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There was no decent meaning put on "bread and salt"

Walder Frey went much too far while talking to Talisa, felt unbelievable and an excuse to put low words in.

"Little Ned" was sweets and sugar.

Catelyn saying "my first son", not "my first and my last". It comes from the previous TV uncertainty of Bran and Rickon's deaths, but matters.

A lot of Catelyn, after she gets hold of a knife, for me. I imagined her differentely from that point. But that is just me, I agree.

Arya not setting Grey Wind free to fight.

Something more could have been achieved with scoring and pauses, I think. The Hound and Arya needed it, too.

Robb fell exactly like he should have. And Roose was also great enough. Catelyn was great, but not really Catelyn from my books.

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These are MY complaints. There are a LOT of them. Let me begin by saying this is my least favorite episode of the entire series and I am utterly disappointed. Benioff and Weiss were the whole reason I started reading A Song of Ice and Fire to begin with. Game of Thrones inspired me to pick up a novel and finish it for the very first time in my nineteen years of life. That novel in turn inspired me to read four more after that. I trusted them completely with this. The Red Wedding was their ultimate goal in the series and they've said it from the start. I am still in disbelief that they would butcher it so badly but I digress. Onto business.

1. Robb's arrival at the Twins was an event in and of itself. His arrival and his death should have been spread out between two episodes as it was in the books with two successive Catelyn chapters. The entire event happened way too fast. For those who have not read the books, Greywind (Robb’s direwolf who has been largely missing from the show until randomly appearing in a KENNEL this episode) attacks some Freys in the rain as they greet the Starks to their castle. Robb, going through great pains to appease Walder Frey, decides to CHAIN his trusty direwolf outside (not in a damned dog kennel). Throughout their time at the Twins, Greywind howls in despair, sensing what is to come.

2. Blackfish & Jeyne (Talisa) are supposed to be safe at Riverrun; not at the Twins with Robb & Catelyn. Jeyne is still alive in the books, supposedly with Robb’s unborn child. An entire plot element currently hinges on whether or not that child is a boy. She should not have been killed off. I’m surprised they didn’t kill the Blackfish as well. How do they explain what he was even doing while his niece and great nephew (KING) were being slaughtered? I suppose he has magically escaped the castle and all the carnage outside to return to Riverrun, where he will most certainly be needed in the future for Jaime’s scenes.

3. Greywind dies AFTER Robb. This is extremely important (sentimentally-wise) as Robb’s real last words are “Greywind…” not “Mother…” It is to be assumed Robb wargs into his direwolf after he dies since this is the same moment Greywind viciously attacks nearby Freys who have not yet began their assault. Robb is betrayed, killed by his own man, wargs into his wolf, then dies all over again. It is part of his death and cutting that out of the show makes it considerably less tragic. To match, the death they gave Greywind here was so lacking in dramatic force or quality, you barely even cared that he was killed.

4. Another thing that makes Robb’s death less bleak is his childish disgruntlement towards Walder Frey throughout the episode. At this point in the books, Robb is genuinely sorry for what he did to his house and wants to make amends. He sustains every slight Walder throws at him without a flinch and handles himself extremely well at the Twins in the face of every petulant Frey. It’s hard to feel sorry for him here with those petty school boy heroics.

5. Most of the deaths in this episode were incredibly underwhelming compared to the deaths in A Storm of Swords. This was for many reasons, unfortunately. First of all, overly dramatic music was being played over everything when we should have been treated to nothing but the Rains of Castamere slowly digressing into the boom doom boom of the musicians’ drums. Secondly, Robb’s actor did an absolutely horrible job at displaying any sort of confusion, shock, fear, or despair. I heard he cried after he discovered how his character was to be killed but you never would have guessed he actually cared from his performance.

Catelyn’s actor was MORE than capable of carrying out some of the horrific things G.R.R. Martin described in his books but for whatever reason, Benioff and Weiss decided to stray for something far drabber. Going catatonic may sound like a proper reaction to the soul crushing sight of what you think is your only surviving child being killed in front of you but when Cat’s scream fades out and she just stands there motionless, it doesn’t deliver the jarring reaction her death deserves. It looks more as if she just accepts it and stops struggling. In the books, she scratches her face to ribbons as she screams bloody murder and the Freys waste no time in apprehending her by the hair. As her braid is yanked back, she thinks “No, not my hair! Ned loves my hair!” This would have been absolutely perfect had those been her last words. She literally goes mad with grief but viewers simply can’t grasp the extent of that grief without lines such as this.

Jeyne’s (Talisa’s) death, besides being totally uncanon, took away from the relationship between mother and son. It wasn’t supposed to be about Jeyne or Robb’s child. It was supposed to be about Catelyn and HER child. This is the relationship we had come to understand in-depth from Cat’s perspective since the first book. Jeyne’s family were also supposed to be suspected conspirators in the Red Wedding. Their daughter was not planned to be killed along with the Starks despite Jeyne’s alleged devotion to Robb. As I mentioned before, a huge plot element hinges on her and her baby. By the fifth book, Blackfish holds Riverrun against the Lannisters with Jeyne tight under guard. He defends her with his life. Why would he do this if not to protect an heir? Now what are they going to come up with when G.R.R. Martin reveals Jeyne is pregnant with the King in the North’s son?

Forget the main characters for a second; part of the horror of the Red Wedding was that so many people you were starting to like were all being slaughtered like farm animals. It is too much to expect to see minor characters such as Dacey Mormont and Smalljon Umber but surely their roles could have been replaced with existing characters in the show. Characters who, in the books, did not matter much. Lopping off the Greatjon’s head in place of his son’s would have been an excellent deviation as the Greatjon is supposed to be held captive then hardly ever mentioned again. Instead, we watch a bunch of bearded men who we’ve never even seen before being killed in humdrum fashions. No crossbow bolts through the mouth, no beheadings; none of that.

I doubt it would have had an impact anyway since the gore in this episode was completely unrealistic and tainted by Hollywood action movies. People do not instantly lose consciousness when their throat is cut then fall to the floor dead. When your esophagus is severed, you lose the ability to breathe through your mouth/nose and begin breathing out of a hole in your neck. This is largely impossible though since the wound bleeds profusely, clogging your esophagus with fluids. You essentially drown on your own blood in a panic, making all sorts of horrible snorting noises for up to three minutes. I’m not even sure G.R.R. Martin was aware of this before writing the Red Wedding but slitting throats was never described as one fell graze upon the neck. Catelyn SAWED through this person’s throat until they died. Stabbing a person in their heart is another matter but looks like Bolton missed the mark! Roose had a tiny dagger in place of a longsword and apparently decided to stab Robb in the lower part of his lung (causing instant death… ?).

While all this is happening inside the castle, the Stark host outside is supposed to be burning to death by the masses as a result of giant feast tents rigged to catch fire and collapse on top of them. Rather than depict the elaborate trap G.R.R. Martin conceived, it is simply implied all the Stark men outside are put to the sword. Good thing the viewers have no idea how many Stark men there are in comparison to Bolton men or else they would surely question the effectiveness of an open, armed conflict.

6. Roose’s performance here was a huge disappointment. I was setting my expectations high assuming this actor would be the one to do everything right. I was thoroughly enjoying his portrayal of the Leech Lord up until this point. He seemed so smug whereas in the books, he barely made an attempt to talk to anyone. He played his part perfectly while most of the Freys were a nervous wreck. But he was never cheeky about it. Here, he looks like he’s taking great pleasure in taunting the Starks as if he hates them. Roose is a man who plays for the winning team and takes no particular joy in betrayal. He just accepts that it’s practical and carries out his atrocities without guilt. In addition to screwing up his behavior, the actor got his body movements all wrong as well. Roose is supposed to glide in and out of the hall as confident and smooth as can be. Here, he darts around, ducking his head and lunging out of harm’s way. It’s just so unlike the Lord of the Dreadfort. But most importantly, he says to Robb just before he stabs him “the LANNISTERS send their regards.” I’m sorry, but WHY did you change that from “the Kingslayer sends his regards?” WHY do you think G.R.R. Martin set it up that way?! Cat is supposed to believe Jaime had a hand in her son’s demise from that statement. Cat FREED Jaime so she instantly thinks she’s killed her own son with her foolish actions. She’s supposed to believe that Jaime betrayed her later on in the series but of course viewers will never catch on to this.

7. Lastly, Sandor & Arya’s story was poorly done here. Arya was supposed to be desperate trying to get into the Twins despite all the bloodshed so that she could see her mother and brother once again. The Hound somehow managed to knock her out and carry her off unseen without a fret but in the books, it’s a fight for survival. Frey men attack them and Sandor has to kill a few with an axe before Arya makes a run for it. Just as she’s about to reach the castle, the Hound hits her atop the head. It would have been a much more emotional scene to see Arya kicking and screaming as Sandor tries to subdue her like it was in A Storm of Swords.

I was so hyped up for this moment ever since I read it in the books. I can’t tell you how immensely let down I am. This was meant to be the most significant event in the entire series and I do not feel they did it justice by any means. Viewers of the show will never know how much better it could have been; how much better it should have been. I’m not done with the series but I can definitely say now that I prefer G.R.R. Martin’s works over Benioff and Weiss’s any day. If they would just stick to the damned books instead of making their own changes all the time, I’d be happy. Cut what you need to but don’t add things that were never written down by the author. That’s rule No.1 of any adaption. I can only see this getting worse as the story progresses. Unless the producers get back on track and start doing things the way they should have done all along, I have no more hope left for Game of Thrones.

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