[Book Spoilers] Catelyn @ the end

[Master Forel's Fro]

Considering Lady Stoneheart is just a back ground presense and really only has one or two scenes, I don't think it would be too hard for them to have her return for a guest appearance later on down the track. Even if she gets another gig (which I'm sure she will, she's fantastic) They didn't need to recast Walder Frey and got David Bradly back for another scene seasons later. Its seems like they'd be able to manage the same with Michelle Fairly.

I thought the same they can keep beric and have a hooded person stand in without showing the face (maybe guest appearance down the line). Especially since they showed the BwB as a bunch of bandits that sold ppl, they could have beric using the brotherhood to give justice for ned's widow.

[Tall Tyrion Lannister!]

I read that Michelle Fairley let it slip about Stoneheart, but maybe that was just talking about where her charecter would go.

[Call me Odie]

I just heard today that Michelle Fairley only signed a three-year contract. So even if they do keep Lady Stoneheart, it looks like they will have to re-cast.

As I see it, it does not mean a re-cast. If you goes from being a regular actor to a guest actor that should mean a different contract.

[Tall Tyrion Lannister!]

Wonder what they will have her do anyway, just show a few scenes of her hanging Freys until Brienne shows up?

[Cadiva]

Frankly, I always found the hysterical face shredding a bit out of character for Cat anyway. Lysa maybe, but not Cat.

I agree, I found it to be out of character for her as well, she didn't have a "hysterical" personality and a reaction of that nature felt off for me. It worked better within the book because of the internal monologue the reader also had as she was "shredding" her face and the line about Ned always loving her hair carried with it a weight of poignancy because they'd had a marriage based on love, something we see clearly among the other major players in the books as being pretty rare.

I could easily see Lysa going absolutely hysterically nuts, her character is written to be that way, she's an emotive, impulsive woman not easily able to control her emotions, Cat is written as pretty much her exact opposite.

[Ran]

The point is that it's out of her character. That's exactly the point. So much of her pain and grief is internalized. So much of what makes Catelyn who she is that -- despite opinions to the contrary -- she's an immensely rational person who controls herself, who thinks things through, who hides what she feels to project what strength she can.

And at that moment of complete, horrific loss, she loses all of it. Her self-control and her rationality are stripped from her. The agony becomes externalized, it is too big to be contained. She is destroyed.

[Cadiva]

The point is that it's out of her character. That's exactly the point. So much of her pain and grief is internalized. So much of what makes Catelyn who she is that -- despite opinions to the contrary -- she's an immensely rational person who controls herself, who thinks things through, who hides what she feels to project what strength she can.

And at that moment of complete, horrific loss, she loses all of it. Her self-control and her rationality are stripped from her. The agony becomes externalized, it is too big to be contained. She is destroyed.

And I still don't find it believable that losing all self-control and rationality leads you to claw your face to shreds.

[Ran]

People cut themselves and perform other forms of self-harm all the time as a reaction to severe emotional turmoil, in this very day and age.

Historical accounts of people tearing at their faces, their hair, their clothing, as a sign of grief is also well-established. The ancient Jews were said to do it, the Greeks certainly did, and accounts of such behavior are rife.

That's actual reality. It's not about believing or not.

[Cadiva]

People cut themselves and perform other forms of self-harm all the time as a reaction to severe emotional turmoil, in this very day and age.

Historical accounts of people tearing at their faces, their hair, their clothing, as a sign of grief is also well-established. The ancient Jews were said to do it, the Greeks certainly did, and accounts of such behavior are rife.

That's actual reality. It's not about believing or not.

Urm whether it's actual reality or not is actually irrelevant to whether or not I personal buy into the character of Cat Stark going into hysterical meltdown and clawing her face to shreds. At no point have I said it doesn't occur in reality or that I don't believe it could happen to someone. For me, personally, I don't believe that the way her character has been written throughout the previous books would result in her clawing her face to shreds.

And I still don't find it believable that losing all self-control and rationality leads you to claw your face to shreds.

The believability of this statement is referring to the character of Cat Stark as that is what the previous conversation was regarding, not people in general.

[Ran]

Ah, well, yes, that would be your problem. The whole point, as I said, is that it's deliberately out of her character -- it's the opposite of everything she normally did in response to grief and tragedy. Because she's destroyed.

One might compare, very loosely, to her reaction to Bran's fall. She barely sleeps or eat, she doesn't take care of herself, she ages twenty years, and when Jon arrives, she says the most horrible thing she's ever said to anyone in her life. All because she's lost control, she's no longer rational, the grief is too overwhelming. Later, when she's restored to herself, she feels very guilty about her behavior (including what she said to Jon) and her loss of self-control, and resolves not to let that happen again.

So, it's established that Catelyn can act in uncharacteristic ways in response to grief. This is just the ultimate grief, the straw that breaks the camel's back. What's more uncharacteristic of Catelyn than a complete loss of control? Where do you go with it? Self-mutilation to try and "get the pain out" seems like a start.

[Cadiva]

Ah, well, yes, that would be your problem. The whole point, as I said, is that it's deliberately out of her character -- it's the opposite of everything she normally did in response to grief and tragedy. Because she's destroyed.

One might compare, very loosely, to her reaction to Bran's fall. She barely sleeps or eat, she doesn't take care of herself, she ages twenty years, and when Jon arrives, she says the most horrible thing she's ever said to anyone in her life. All because she's lost control, she's no longer rational, the grief is too overwhelming. Later, when she's restored to herself, she feels very guilty about her behavior (including what she said to Jon) and her loss of self-control, and resolves not to let that happen again.

So, it's established that Catelyn can act in uncharacteristic ways in response to grief. This is just the ultimate grief, the straw that breaks the camel's back.

Which is fine, it's how GRRM has written those two scenes, it doesn't mean it has to work for every reader. In my case, the former works because she is focussing on Bran's recovery and as a mother I can understand and relate to that. The later I don't buy because, for me, it appears to be completely beyond any kind of logical or even emotive response for the character of Cat Stark.

Even taken into account with her behaviour with Bran, I would find it far more believable that she would simply shut down, that her rational thought processes would be so utterly destroyed by what she's just seen that she can no longer function - an extreme reaction to her behaviour when Bran was injured. For her to lose all control to the point at which she starts behaving like a wailing banshee just doesn't work for me at all and I don't believe is in character for her, even when her previous behaviour is taken into account.

It's an observation on why I felt the way they portrayed the scene on the TV show worked far better than having her stood there shredding her face and laughing maniacally, it's not supposed to be convincing anyone else that their opinion is wrong. It's also not "my problem", it's my opinion.

[Tall Tyrion Lannister!]

I take her going batshit at Robb being killed as the straw that broke the camels back. she's had her husband killed, her father dead and Arya, Bran and Rickon are assumed dead. All of this happens in about a year or so. For the most part she keeps all her grief inside, so when Roose stabbed Robb and killed him, she just finally completely lost it due to all the things that had happened to her.

[Jarlix]

Ah, well, yes, that would be your problem. The whole point, as I said, is that it's deliberately out of her character -- it's the opposite of everything she normally did in response to grief and tragedy. Because she's destroyed.

One might compare, very loosely, to her reaction to Bran's fall. She barely sleeps or eat, she doesn't take care of herself, she ages twenty years, and when Jon arrives, she says the most horrible thing she's ever said to anyone in her life. All because she's lost control, she's no longer rational, the grief is too overwhelming. Later, when she's restored to herself, she feels very guilty about her behavior (including what she said to Jon) and her loss of self-control, and resolves not to let that happen again.

So, it's established that Catelyn can act in uncharacteristic ways in response to grief. This is just the ultimate grief, the straw that breaks the camel's back. What's more uncharacteristic of Catelyn than a complete loss of control? Where do you go with it? Self-mutilation to try and "get the pain out" seems like a start.

Basically. It's perfectly in line with her book characterization whereas her penultimate conclusion at the height of this episode was more in line with the stern resilience that HBO portrayed her as having. It sort of brings to mind the Catelyn they casted in the pilot, who had a more soft and younger looking face, when I think of the slight differences between them.

[The_Lone_Direwolf]

I take her going batshit at Robb being killed as the straw that broke the camels back. she's had her husband killed, her father dead and Arya, Bran and Rickon are assumed dead. All of this happens in about a year or so. For the most part she keeps all her grief inside, so when Roose stabbed Robb and killed him, she just finally completely lost it due to all the things that had happened to her.

Exactly. Not to mention hearing that Sansa has been forced into a Lannister marriage (Tyrion of all people) and hearing "Jamie Lannister sends his regards...".

Being personally responsible for his release she would think she has caused it all. I don't blame her for snapping.

Show wise I thought the crazy Cat screaming at Bran in his falling dream was a foreshadow that we would see her go mad before she died.

I even suspected that the look Jojen gave him straight after indicated he understood what the real meaning of it was.

[Envie]

As someone who understands a great deal about the motivations of self-harming, I'd like to correct the assumption that it's just a 'bat shit crazy' response someone does as a straw-breaking-camel's-back moment of trauma. No, in fact most self harming is a carefully controlled behavior much as self medicating is used to take away pain, it's a specific dosage of pain self administered to focus the pain somewhere else than inside, where it's eating the person up. It's like someone smashing your fingers backwards while you're complaining of a headache...one pain cancels out the other.

The significance of this with Cat's ending is purely opinion for most, but to me, having her 'go crazy' and rake her face off was yes, definitely uncharacteristic of the woman who spent her entire life internalizing her emotional pain. It worked in the book because we're reading a private POV monologue from the character herself. You are privy to all of her internal emotions and thoughts and motivations which you are not when you watch the show Catelyn. Self harming is not 'going crazy' - in fact it's what keeps many persons suffering emotional trauma from going crazy at all as much as the acts themselves appear crazy to many who don't do that. Everyone has a coping mechanism and for many they never find out what that mechanism is and yes, they pop their corks and go crazy. Just thought I'd clear that up. Did Catelyn Stark really go crazy in the end and now they've downplayed that by having her go catatonic instead? I don't think that was done to change Lady Stoneheart's motivations so much as make the special effects and future appearances easier to handle, much as they did not show Tyrion's nose being cut off.

[Jamie's left hand]

I didn't like Cat in the episode she's my least favorite actor and character for that matter

[Cadiva]

As someone who understands a great deal about the motivations of self-harming, I'd like to correct the assumption that it's just a 'bat shit crazy' response someone does as a straw-breaking-camel's-back moment of trauma. No, in fact most self harming is a carefully controlled behavior much as self medicating is used to take away pain, it's a specific dosage of pain self administered to focus the pain somewhere else than inside, where it's eating the person up. It's like someone smashing your fingers backwards while you're complaining of a headache...one pain cancels out the other.

The significance of this with Cat's ending is purely opinion for most, but to me, having her 'go crazy' and rake her face off was yes, definitely uncharacteristic of the woman who spent her entire life internalizing her emotional pain. It worked in the book because we're reading a private POV monologue from the character herself. You are privy to all of her internal emotions and thoughts and motivations which you are not when you watch the show Catelyn.

Self harming is not 'going crazy' - in fact it's what keeps many persons suffering emotional trauma from going crazy at all as much as the acts themselves appear crazy to many who don't do that. Everyone has a coping mechanism and for many they never find out what that mechanism is and yes, they pop their corks and go crazy. Just thought I'd clear that up.

Did Catelyn Stark really go crazy in the end and now they've downplayed that by having her go catatonic instead? I don't think that was done to change Lady Stoneheart's motivations so much as make the special effects and future appearances easier to handle, much as they did not show Tyrion's nose being cut off.

Thanks for that Envie, I've always understood self-harming to be a control mechanism as well not, as you say - going bat shit crazy. The only person I know who has self-harmed in the past struggles with other emotional issues as well (ADHD/Autism traits) and has said she did it because she felt it was the only thing she was able to make a concious decision about.

I also agree with you re-the special effects logistics probably playing a part in the decision as well.

[tallTale]

When do you all think we see (un)Cat again?

Season 5?

[Tywin's bastard]

As someone who understands a great deal about the motivations of self-harming, I'd like to correct the assumption that it's just a 'bat shit crazy' response someone does as a straw-breaking-camel's-back moment of trauma. No, in fact most self harming is a carefully controlled behavior much as self medicating is used to take away pain, it's a specific dosage of pain self administered to focus the pain somewhere else than inside, where it's eating the person up. It's like someone smashing your fingers backwards while you're complaining of a headache...one pain cancels out the other.

The significance of this with Cat's ending is purely opinion for most, but to me, having her 'go crazy' and rake her face off was yes, definitely uncharacteristic of the woman who spent her entire life internalizing her emotional pain. It worked in the book because we're reading a private POV monologue from the character herself. You are privy to all of her internal emotions and thoughts and motivations which you are not when you watch the show Catelyn. Self harming is not 'going crazy' - in fact it's what keeps many persons suffering emotional trauma from going crazy at all as much as the acts themselves appear crazy to many who don't do that. Everyone has a coping mechanism and for many they never find out what that mechanism is and yes, they pop their corks and go crazy. Just thought I'd clear that up. Did Catelyn Stark really go crazy in the end and now they've downplayed that by having her go catatonic instead? I don't think that was done to change Lady Stoneheart's motivations so much as make the special effects and future appearances easier to handle, much as they did not show Tyrion's nose being cut off.

Good to see this comment from someone that really knows about self-harming. I've always thought what you write here, that it's a very controlled but extreme form of dealing with your pain, but I've also been very aware that I'm not fully knowledgeable on the subject. I've never gotten the impression that people that cut themselves do it in huge bursts of emotion, it's always seemed like they do it quietly.

I don't think it changes any motivations for Lady Stoneheart either. She's not aggressive, she's the cold vengeance that remains. If anything the show foreshadowed that in my eyes.

Not that I have any problems with how it was in the book either. It worked very well and I can counteract the melodrama easier in my head than when I see it on screen. That it's not necessarily realistic that a woman that's so well versed in self-control reacts like that I don't really care, just as I can get past that what Tyrion did to Shae wouldn't have killed her (how to choke someone out is something I am knowledgeable about).

[Eizweix]

When do you all think we see (un)Cat again?

Season 5?

Probably, tho she took over the BWB in the 3rd book, so we might see her in season 4, maybe at the end (as a cliffhanger). :P