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Ran

[Pre-ADwD Spoilers] Jon 1

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The Blackfish probably has little time for Littlefinger, given the Tully-Baelish backstory, and LF would probably not welcome someone with closer ties and a better claim to be Sansa's guardian than himself.

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For those who care, this is now posted on GRRM official site as the sample chapter. It is, as described, excellent...

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For those who care, this is now posted on GRRM official site as the sample chapter. It is, as described, excellent...

I agree. The tension between Stannis and Jon is amazing, and then to cut from that to Melisandre trying to almost seduce him... it's a very good chapter. Also, I liked a lot of the incidentals; they make me think better of Jon's ability as a Lord Commander.

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Great chapter. After having read it I dare to predict the following things:

- Rickon&Shaggy are with the mountain clans.

- It will get warm at the wall, probably due to Melisandre's attempt to hatch a dragon.

- Melisandre will definately try to seduce Jon in a physical way.

Does anyone have a guess why Lyanna Mormont (the first name and its frequent appearance gave me the creeps by the way) and not one of her older siblings signed the letter?

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Does anyone have a guess why Lyanna Mormont (the first name and its frequent appearance gave me the creeps by the way) and not one of her older siblings signed the letter?

The older daughters went with Maege to fight alongside Robb in the North. Lyanna would have been too young to go, presumably.

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Besselfunction,

I noticed the appearance of Shaggy as well. However, we can't be sure where they are. A goat doesn't automatically mean mountians. However, that does make it less likely Rickon is shacked up with Howland Reed.

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Besselfunction,

I noticed the appearance of Shaggy as well. However, we can't be sure where they are. A goat doesn't automatically mean mountians. However, that does make it less likely Rickon is shacked up with Howland Reed.

For the story it is no problem if Rickon would go the the Neck. He will not be a POV, neither will Howland Reed and thus booth are safely hidden and out danger.

But still it would be strange if Rickon went to the seat of House Reeds, but without Meera and Jojen.

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What do people think of Jon saying a simple, "No" to the question of whether he wants Tyrion Lannister ruling in Winterfell?GRRM has left it open as to whether Jon hates Tyrion as he hates the other Lannisters, imo. Or maybe that is Jon implying he hates Tyrion, with the curt denial.

I misinterpreted a line at LACon. It was this one.

The cords in the king's neck stood out sharp as swords. "And to think, I offered you a name."

"I have a name, Your Grace."

"Snow. Was ever a name more ill-omened?" Stannis touched his sword hilt. "Just who do you imagine that you are?"

I thought it went, "I have a name, Your Grace -- Snow." - Jon. Blah blah from Stannis. GRRM is light years beyond the writer I will ever be but I do prefer my interpretation and will always read it that way.

Stannis is great at the unintentional comedy here. "This is not King's Landing." :lol:

I fear the "His Grace is growing fond of you" line does not translate so well into comedy when not read aloud, however.

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Terrific chapter, I like both Stannis and Jon as characters and it's great to see them in conflict.

I liked the character development of Melissandre as well. The fact that she admits that interpretation of visions in the fire can err IMO completely changes the reader's perception of her character. She may be very devoted, but she's not a blind fanatic.

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I agree with those who think this chapter is terrific - my favourite of the three chapters released so far. Jon is much colder in this chapter than he has been previously and we can now see where a lot of the anti-Jon angst has come from.

I absolutely agree with those who believe that Melisandre has changed the reader's perception of her character. She still has that dangerous edge to her, but I feel that she comes across much more vulnerable in the final scene of this chapter than she ever has before. I would go as far as to say this is the most human that we have seen Mel. Was it just me who felt that her delivery of the final line of the chapter comes across with a melancholy tone - as though for some reason she is disappointed with Jon?

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Was it just me who felt that her delivery of the final line of the chapter comes across with a melancholy tone - as though for some reason she is disappointed with Jon?

I thought it could be more generally classified as a threat or sign to tell Jon she does have real power to see stuff in the flames. I would have loved to seen or read about Jon's expression after she whispered those words.

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This is what I meant by her character still having an edge, when I first read that this would be how the first chapter ends I thought it would come across as cold and threatening. Instead I felt as though it were sad and threatening. I don't know if there are any fellow LOST viewers out there, but I liken Desmond's flashes in Season 3 to Melisandre's visions - I believe that fate has led her to Jon, just as I think she will eventually sacrifice Stannis.

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Was it just me who felt that her delivery of the final line of the chapter comes across with a melancholy tone - as though for some reason she is disappointed with Jon?

When I read it, it came across as an eye-rolling, I-can't-believe-you're-not-a-believer type of comment.

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I agree with those who think this chapter is terrific - my favourite of the three Was it just me who felt that her delivery of the final line of the chapter comes across with a melancholy tone - as though for some reason she is disappointed with Jon?

To me it was (apart from a great line) her prove that she could see in the past. And because of that probably also in the future.

And with this she also tells him to trust her, because of her knowledge.

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I agree with SotM in that the wording of the phrase was deliberate. It directly compares her in Jon's mind to Ygritte - which Jon has already done earlier in the chapter when he thinks that Ygritte was kissed by fire whereas Mel is fire. In my mind the sympathetic tone (which I got from the statement) could also be an indication that he [Jon] hasn't learned from his mistakes.

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It's clearly more than that, her choice of phrasing is not accidental, but deliberate.

Perhaps, but I guess I just tend to be an Occam's razor type of guy.

She gives him a speech, he's dismissive, and then she leans in with a whispered "you know nothing". To me, she seems exasperated/annoyed that he doesn't believe/isn't taking her seriously and is whispering to try and lend gravity to her words.

Cheers.

Edit: I should that we all read things through our own glasses, which may make my interpretation a reflection on me more than the author's intentions.

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Perhaps, but I guess I just tend to be an Occam's razor type of guy.

She gives him a speech, he's dismissive, and then she leans in with a whispered "you know nothing". To me, she seems exasperated/annoyed that he doesn't believe/isn't taking her seriously and is whispering to try and lend gravity to her words.

Cheers.

Edit: I should that we all read things through our own glasses, which may make my interpretation a reflection on me more than the author's intentions.

I couldn't agree more with this interpratation, that how I red it too. You just Watch how the "enemies" she name will turn out to be the strong indepandant persons in the NW and the more Jon will reject her "advise" and advances the closer to the stake he'll come, himself.

On a diffrent note and quite pointless one actually since it does'nt help us anyway as to where Rickon is but are we sure Shaggydog is eating a goat? Sure, in the text it says goat but the descripion of the "goat", being really large and having huge horns, that says elk, moose or reindeer to me.

This passage don't say goat to me "A wild rain was lashing down upon his black brother as he tore at the flesh of an enormous goat, washing the blood from his side where the goat's long horn had raked him"

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Also loved the chapter, esp. the end. I personally didn't see Mel as seducing Jon. She did draw him close physically (arm in arm), but I didn't see that as necessarily sexual on her part, but rather, more as part of her implied threat to him. Part of me thinks that despite the fact that she admits that Rh'llor's priests can make mistakes in interpreting flames, she thinks that she is immune (or more immune than most) from such failures. She's always struck me as a character with a fair amount of hubris just waiting for a fall.... The other part of me thinks that Loras is right (great LOST reference btw) and she has realized that she was wrong about her predictions about Stannis and is now following what she believes the better interpretation of the flames is.

Did anyone else pick up that she probably knows what Ghost and Jon's relationship is?

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