How I Would Have Adapted "The Rains of Castamere"

[Dove]

I agree that a lot of this comes across as "ITS NOT LIKE THE BOOKS"-style nitpicking and doesn't take certain logistical problems involving television into account, but it makes a good read just to make you go what if. Take this, for example;

Then she begins to laugh. Slow at first, gradually becoming hysterical. “She’s lost her wits…” Lothar can be heard saying. “Make an end.” Another Frey suggests. Black Walder yanks on her braid from behind. “No, don’t cut my hair! Ned loves my hair!” she blurts out in madness. Black Walder opens her throat with one deep slash, releasing a surge of blood.

What we got concerning Cat was very, very powerful, but just reading this and imagining it gave me chills all over again.

Would this outright hysteria have been more effective on-screen than the catatonic, thousand yard stare? With stuff like this you have to be ssooo careful to avoid making it seem melodramatic or even inadvertantly funny, and the books have the advantage of our imagination doing the work - meaning we're supplying the imagery to match the horrifying prose ourselves so of course it won't be a "miss". Like I said, I'm very happy with what we got, but it's interesting to ponder at any rate.

[Khal-a-bunga]

I agree that a lot of this comes across as "ITS NOT LIKE THE BOOKS"-style nitpicking and doesn't take certain logistical problems involving television into account, but it makes a good read just to make you go what if. Take this, for example;

What we got concerning Cat was very, very powerful, but just reading this and imagining it gave me chills all over again.

Would this outright hysteria have been more effective on-screen than the catatonic, thousand yard stare? With stuff like this you have to be ssooo careful to avoid making it seem melodramatic or even inadvertantly funny, and the books have the advantage of our imagination doing the work - meaning we're supplying the imagery to match the horrifying prose ourselves so of course it won't be a "miss". Like I said, I'm very happy with what we got, but it's interesting to ponder at any rate.

I get what you're saying, but what if Michelle Fairley simply didn't feel that that's how she would have reacted? What if they tried it, and it just wasn't working for one reason or another? Furthermore, why would anyone need to say that "She's lost her wits...?" - wouldn't it be a bit unnecessary, and take away from our engagement with the actress in that moment to hear another character (who we're barely familiar with) speaking during such an emotional moment? We, as viewers, can clearly see and understand that she's lose it - even in the show. No face-clawing, or out-and-out wailing required.

[Dove]

From reading interviews about the process, I think that's probably what happened - they went in the direction they did because of Fairley's (and perhaps other actors' on set?) input. The collaboration that goes into this show is genuinely interesting to read about.

What we got was truly, truly fantastic, like it makes me physically uncomfortable to look at her expression at the very end because of how obviously dead inside she is kind of powerful. It's just interesting to play hypothetical on occasion.

I think the reason Cat's hysterical madness worked so well on the page in addition to the other stuff I listed, is because we were reading from her perspective. The fact that she doesn't even recognize Roose Bolton or starts maiming herself and it's described as ravens raking at her face - I mean, wow. That's a wonderful use of prose and perspective, but it's a different medium entirely. I think trying to replicate it exactly on the screen would just make it a pale imitation and they went in a different, but still extremely strong, direction.

edit: madness not mindness lol

[YuvalTheVal]

I feel like you went for the more "epic" scene, well the creators went with something more brutal and sudden. To me, I think that's what made the scene so special. Drums, the song in the background and everything you suggested would have made it more of a cliche, I personally perfer the version of the show, which is more unique and horrifying.

[Lord Elrosir]

Best quote in this thread:

"because...well....BOOK!!!"

[GREYJOY4LYFE]

One of the reasons I didn't like the wife being used in place of the grandson was that the actress who played the wife had been changed from the one who played her in season one. What was the point? That particular role didn't require any special kind of acting ability so I didn't get why they decided to replace her. Had it been the original actor, I think it would have been more powerful than killing off a character that was introduced in the very same episode (Jinglebell).

I would have guessed the same about his wife either way, personally. Walder is a cruel, selfish man. I don't think it was obvious because he was a lackwit; I think it was obvious because of the overall hopelessness of the situation. To me, the brutal execution of a harmless jester is much more horrifying than the execution of a possible Stark hater.

I liked that they had it be the wife instead of the halfwit grandson. A big show theme this season was love/marriage. The Tyrell/Lannister jostling for Sansa resulting in Sansa marrying Tyrion.. Robb and Talisa.. Jon and Ygritte... Sam and Gilly.. Theon losing his "favorite toy".. Edmure and Roslin of course. They really built up the story of how much Robb loved and was devoted to his wife.. so much that he was essentially willing to lose the North and his life for her. And here stands Catelyn holding Walder's own wife's life in balance and he couldn't give two whatevers. She's just another piece in the game he's playing to spread his seed.

[Gregor's Nancy Boy]

As if you have any idea. You don't know how much it costs, how much it would have cost, how much you would have saved, or how much you would have had for the 10th episode.

Refer to post #28

First problem.

The actor playing the Greatjon is no longer under contract due to bailing on the project in season two. So right off, you’re stuck with either recasting someone for a single show, needlessly dropping his name to hopefully make the viewer’s recall that’s the same name of that completely different guy in season one, all in hopes of getting them to care about his death despite being what appears to be a throw away character due to this.

A useless gesture for TV, going over the heads of the audience just as a nod to book readers. Not worth taking up time on a show.

Next few issues. Where do you stick Dany’s scenes since you’re cutting her here? What do you cut to make room for it? Additionally, does Clarke have any clauses in her contract in terms of episodes that she’ll be appearing.

Second, a “magnificent CGI rendered tower” costs cash, not just for this scene but any others around the outside unless you’re also designing a set piece of said shallow lake area which again costs money. All for very little actual relevance or pay off to the show, again just to get a rise out of book readers. Again, a useless gesture for TV.

So catelyn, Edmure, Robb, and some random guy no one who watches the show really recognizes or cares about.

More CGI costs, again for little useful reason.

Why would Tormund, based on the other episodes of the show, be the one to call for Jon’s death simply for not executing someone. Not executing someone could speak as much to his desire not to kill a helpless man as it is still being a “crow” and Tormund has expressed a liking for Snow, suggesting he’d be more likely to give the benefit of the doubt. All season it had been set up that Orell was untrusting and disliking of Snow, so him being the initiator of things and seemingly goading Tormund into it makes FAR more sense. Unless you’re doing a rewrite of the whole season, Tormund starting it doesn’t make sense.

So basically you’ve replaced scenes for one of the primary characters of the televisions shows focus, causing them to need to be shuffled into episode 8 or episode 10 and bumping out other scenes in the process, all to give some exposition to a supporting character you happen to have a care for seemingly in The Hound.

Wonderful for book reader fan fic, horrible method of going about things for a script writing TV producer doing an adaptation.

So guy no one really knows, guy whose recast so is confusing, Roose, and another guy we’re suddenly meeting and supposed to care about…

One big scene in a packed episode with pretty much little pay off, other than revealing one of the cliff hangers of the season a week early in an episode that’s already filled with memorable things. Meh.

Hey, it’s a scene heavily focused on a recast guy that the audience doesn’t really recognize and thus likely doesn’t care about. That’s a great thin to waste some time on. And look, we can cast and pay another speaking actor instead of simply having Roose explain about Fat Walda because….well, we read the book [baratheon]Damn ya[/baratheon] and so we demand purity!

So say “Jamie Lannister” even though Jamie stated “The Lannisters”, and make sure he’s wearing a cloak he’s never worn on the show before ever because…well…BOOK!!!!!

So now we’re onto significant special affects beyond just what’s needed for a throat slit, since we need her to have a bunch of portions of her face able to be “slashed” while still looking like her. Also, we’re setting up increased costs and time for casting in the future by making a far more difficult lady stoneheart look. All to show her desperation at the time, something widely proclaimed as an understood bit of emotion even by show watches due to the actresses excellent work at the end. So again, an action for the purpose of………making the book readers happy and nothing else. Yay.

Thus removing the amazing cut to black that left non-book readers (and some book readers as well) largely with their mouths slackjawed open, and removing one of the deaths that seemingly brought forward the correct type of emotions of the Red Wedding in many non-book readers in terms of the viewed execution of Grey Wind (this got a ton of run as “the worst death” to watch from many commenters).

This on top of already removing Talisa’s death and Baby Ned Starks. You’ve swapped out the emotional impact of a death of a character we’ve been heavily following and an unborn baby for the death of a guy who’d be recast and would largely be irrelevant to the audience. And this is supposed to better bestow the feeling of the Red Wedding from the book? Not without having you as the new producer and writer for the whole series up to this point as well.

I’m glad you’ve gotten your chance in your mind to think of how you’d like it done and felt the need to share it with people. I hope you’re glad that some of us are taking the opportunity to share what we feel in our minds, and state that we’re exceedingly happy you’re not a writer or producer for the show. I do think the producers were rather satisfied with their episode. I dare say the vast majority of viewers, book readers or not, were ALSO rather satisfied with their episode. I’d also dare say they’d be far more satisfied with the episode that aired, including HBO, than with the one you proposed being inserted in instead. (I see as I read on that your claim for going with the Wife being a bad choice was because they changed her from season one…yet a HUGE amount of your red wedding changes focused around adding Greatjohn Umber, who would be changed from season one! And she wasn’t even a different actress. Oh, then you back pedal and explain that for your “adaptation” to work really we would’ve needed you basically rewriting the entire series as a producer because it hinges on MULTIPLE other writing and production changes to have been done, all of which with their own host of issues and problems. Wonderful logic.)

I liked some of the things you suggested…the crying by the bride, being asked to cage Grey Wind, and showing more of Grey Winds uneasiness as well. But by and large, all I see is a script aimed at trying to do as direct of an adaptation as possible, not something attempting to make a compelling television episode within the constraints of reality adapted from the book.

First off, let me say again that I respect EVERYONE'S opinion on this forum. But when you act like a child and start adding little remarks that you think make you sound smart, I'm not inclined to take anything you're trying to say into account. Nor should anyone else. It's immature and pathetic. The only reason I've stooped to this myself is because certain people can't maintain a proper level of respect. I'm over it. I'm sure no one on this board would address a total stranger like that in person so let's all stop the nonsense right here.

To Zyphlin: I'm just going to disregard the cheeky comments and attempt to answer your criticisms in as honest a fashion that I can. No "passive-aggressiveness" below. If this is not the type of response you wanted from me, best stop reading now.

1)

The actor playing the Greatjon is no longer under contract due to bailing on the project in season two. So right off, you’re stuck with either recasting someone for a single show, needlessly dropping his name to hopefully make the viewer’s recall that’s the same name of that completely different guy in season one, all in hopes of getting them to care about his death despite being what appears to be a throw away character due to this.

A useless gesture for TV, going over the heads of the audience just as a nod to book readers. Not worth taking up time on a show.

I have no idea what this guy's story is and never really cared to read up on it. It's possible he could have rejoined the show under certain circumstances which HBO refused. I wouldn't know. But one of my favorite minor characters was recast in season two and it was a massive disappointment to me. That character was The Mountain That Rides. There was no confusion whatsoever about who the replacement was playing when Tywin addressed him at Harrenhal and I just accepted that that was the new Gregor. Never forgot his face or his scenes. I'll know who he is when I see him again. And mind you, I hadn't even read A Game of Thrones at that point. I was just as "unsullied" as every other casual Game of Thrones fan.

About being a throw away character, SPOILER: Gregor dies next season. His character has been in approximately three scenes for the entirety of this show's existence yet he was recast just so he could fight at Tyrion's trial. If it was the only option, I would have liked the Greatjon to be recast so he could fight at the Red Wedding and replace his son who was never casted to begin with. If the actor they got was any good at all and he was included in Robb's story arc throughout season two and three just as much as Roose was, I'm sure people would have grown to like the new Greatjon just as much, if not better, and been disappointed to see him killed so unjustly. Not sure if you've read the books or not but part of the horror of the Red Wedding, as I've said before in other threads, is seeing all these small side characters you've come to have some sort of attachment to slaughtered like animals. I think it was a mistake to cut him out of the story completely considering his importance in season one. Not saying he should have been recast for this one episode but I'm thinking the actor might have come back for a death scene had someone asked him.

2)

Next few issues. Where do you stick Dany’s scenes since you’re cutting her here? What do you cut to make room for it? Additionally, does Clarke have any clauses in her contract in terms of episodes that she’ll be appearing.

Second, a “magnificent CGI rendered tower” costs cash, not just for this scene but any others around the outside unless you’re also designing a set piece of said shallow lake area which again costs money. All for very little actual relevance or pay off to the show, again just to get a rise out of book readers. Again, a useless gesture for TV.

I think Dany's story arc in the last two episodes could have been drastically improved had the scenes been cut in length and altered. The whole "Sack of Yunkai" where three men somehow liberated an entire city by killing dozens of soldiers in waves by themselves could have been replaced with a shorter "kill the guards, open the gate, let a hundred sneaky Stormcrows in" and benefited greatly. Cut to a scene where Dany looks at the city on fire in the night listening to the screams of Yunkish men and you get a better effect. Her only other scene besides the planning of the Sack and the actual Sack was the "Mhysa" scene. They could have also spread the Red Wedding out between two episodes but I don't want to get into that and its repercussions. If Emilia Clarke had a clause like that, they could have sneaked one scene into that episode like they did with Sam & Gilly. If John Bradley had a similar clause, some rearranging of scenes would be in order but I don't think that's the case.

About the tower, yeah, you're right. I admitted to that in my original post though. Like I said, I don't know their budget restraints and the costs of certain specific features. But nobody else here does either. No one can say exactly how manageable the things I've suggested are. You can only take guesses. However, seeing as Queenscrown is never visited again in the books and is not the focus of the scenes that take place around it, you have a point. But in response to that, I say: what about everything else that was CGI-rendered and provided very little actual relevance or pay off to the show? Think of all the new places or new views of old places we saw this season that were made by CGI and required a set. Astapor, Yunkai, Dragonstone, Riverrun, the Great Sept of Baelor, the Dreadfort, the Wall, the Twins, Harrenhal. That's impressive. I don't understand why Queenscrown was totally out of the question to expect or want.

3)

So catelyn, Edmure, Robb, and some random guy no one who watches the show really recognizes or cares about.

In my adaption, Galbart Glover serves as a familiar face to show watchers. That's all. He's always stood out in my mind after his "RENLY IS NOT RIGHT!" line during Robb's King in the North scene. This was the case with many other viewers as well, I think, going by the memes and satirical cult following. He's quite recognizable to fans who actually pay attention. That is the audience D&D should be catering to regardless. The reason I've included him is because watching a Stark bannerman you've been accustomed to seeing periodically since season one being murdered is emotionally more evoking than watching people you've never seen before being murdered. I'll say it again: part of the horror of the Red Wedding is seeing all these small side characters you've come to have some sort of attachment to slaughtered like animals.

There are only so many Stark characters left at this point in the series besides Robb, Talisa, Roose, and Catelyn. Galbart is not so important show-wise so that makes him the perfect candidate for this role. In the books, besides the main characters who died, we had Lord Commander Mormont's niece, the Greatjon's son, Robb's brother-in-law, Catelyn's companions/bodyguards from her voyage to the Stormlands, and the lord of a fiercely pro-Ned mountain clan amongst others. I believe Galbart Glover was actually in this episode anyway. He was the one chasing Roose after Catelyn slapped him if I'm correct. The whole hall is really dark so it's hard to tell but he has Galbart's hair. If that really was him, why he didn't get his own death scene is beyond me. Wendel Manderly was in this episode too yet we never got a death scene from him either.

4)

More CGI costs, again for little useful reason.

Define useful and we can debate it. I could name dozens of instances throughout the history of this show where CGI was not necessarily needed but used anyway. Also, here's a quote from the rantings I linked to in my original post:

While all this is happening inside the castle, the Stark host outside is supposed to be burning to death by the masses as a result of giant feast tents rigged to catch fire and collapse on top of them. Rather than depict the elaborate trap G.R.R. Martin conceived, it is simply implied all the Stark men outside are put to the sword. Good thing the viewers have no idea how many Stark men there are in comparison to Bolton men.

The way I see it, the tents were twice as necessary as half of the CGI-rendered content in season three. If Frey men and Bolton men launched an open attack against Robb's loyal bannermen 3,500 strong without the use of large, flammable feast tents and catapults rigged to launch barrels of oil onto their camps, they most likely would have been thwarted. Laying a trap for the Stark army was crucial in their defeat.

5)

Why would Tormund, based on the other episodes of the show, be the one to call for Jon’s death simply for not executing someone. Not executing someone could speak as much to his desire not to kill a helpless man as it is still being a “crow” and Tormund has expressed a liking for Snow, suggesting he’d be more likely to give the benefit of the doubt. All season it had been set up that Orell was untrusting and disliking of Snow, so him being the initiator of things and seemingly goading Tormund into it makes FAR more sense. Unless you’re doing a rewrite of the whole season, Tormund starting it doesn’t make sense.

Orell is still in my version and Orell is still the one to spur Tormund. The only changes I made to that scene were the old man's death, Ygritte attacking Tormund, Tormund being distracted by Ygritte, and Ygritte shooting Jon (which I later retracted after seeing Ygritte shoot Jon in the season finale). Reading that paragraph over, I can see where you thought I would want to leave that part out as it wasn't mentioned.

6)

So basically you’ve replaced scenes for one of the primary characters of the televisions shows focus, causing them to need to be shuffled into episode 8 or episode 10 and bumping out other scenes in the process, all to give some exposition to a supporting character you happen to have a care for seemingly in The Hound.

Wonderful for book reader fan fic, horrible method of going about things for a script writing TV producer doing an adaptation.

No, my version is focused on the Starks and the Starks only. I did that on purpose. Arya & Sandor's various scenes are meant to express how much Arya is going through within a brief period to reach the Twins in time for her uncle's wedding. Eventually, Bran and Jon are dropped from the episode entirely and scenes switch back and forth between Catelyn at the Twins and Arya who is desperately trying to make her way there. In the actual show, I felt like the journey to the wedding was a piece of cake whereas in the books, it was a nightmare as storms raged on day and night. It makes it more tragic when she finally arrives and Stark men are being killed left and right. Yes, I would gladly remove Sam and Dany from this episode because the Red Wedding has nothing to do with either character and I think this entire episode should have been dedicated to the intense build up. I hate to use this word again but tying in Dany's story arc with Robb's story arc while Jorah and friends are killing off unrealistically incapable soldiers by the dozen with their ninja moves and Robb is dying along with everyone he loves is pretty anticlimactic.

7)

So guy no one really knows, guy whose recast so is confusing, Roose, and another guy we’re suddenly meeting and supposed to care about…

Concerning the Greatjon, it depends on whether or not his actor was persuaded to come back for this episode or if he was recast at a much earlier date. Recasting for only this episode then killing him off is a horrible idea and I never meant to imply that's what I wanted. I doubt they even bothered with trying to save Greatjon's character after his actor left. Like I said, I think that was a mistake letting him fade from the show like he did. Glover isn't intended to be a lovable character here. Nor is Manderly. Galbart is there for continuity's sake and Wendel is there for more screen time. Wyman Manderly hates the Freys and eventually bakes three of them into pies and serves them to their own family. Do you think this is because he's a loyalist or because his son was murdered by them? It's a shame he wasn't introduced sooner than this as he was one of Robb's most trusted men. He even offered to marry a Frey in recompense for his King's actions when Robb married Jeyne. One example of a great minor character killed off in the Red Wedding. Anyway, the scene is about Catelyn, Robb, and Roose; not them. They're his council. His council needed to be present in the series and it's wasn't. At least not after season two.

8)

One big scene in a packed episode with pretty much little pay off, other than revealing one of the cliff hangers of the season a week early in an episode that’s already filled with memorable things. Meh.

As much as I liked the exchange between Roose and Walder in the season finale and then the transition to Ramsay, the sense of foreboding that would occur from that innocent little conversation would be monumental. Cue Grey Wind's howl outside and the viewers instantly know something is up. I honestly thought they were going to do it this way before episode nine aired. You call this a week early but I call Ramsay's reveal a week late. They missed out on a great opportunity the way I see it. The Red Wedding was missing a lot of build up. There was virtually no foreshadowing until Black Walder closed the doors to the hall. Not a soul who hadn't read the books or heard about the Red Wedding beforehand could have predicted what was about to happen whereas in A Storm of Swords, the beauty is that the clues are all in plain sight but it still catches you by surprise. Now compare this to the foreshadowing of Ned's death. They find a direwolf with a stag's antler in its throat eight episodes before a Stark is killed by a Baratheon.

9)

Hey, it’s a scene heavily focused on a recast guy that the audience doesn’t really recognize and thus likely doesn’t care about. That’s a great thin to waste some time on. And look, we can cast and pay another speaking actor instead of simply having Roose explain about Fat Walda because….well, we read the book [baratheon]Damn ya[/baratheon] and so we demand purity!

It's not focused on him at all. I just included him to let the audience know he's still there and he's drunk. You're convinced that people won't care about him but don't you think If the producers can write lines that make people fall in love with accessory characters such as Anguy in just three scenes, they can do the same for a recast? Particularly one who's as comical as the Greatjon? I chose to place Fat Walda there because there are supposed to be a lot of actual people as guests; Not just extras with beards who make noise and drink behind the main characters. I also added her because Bolton's story sounded completely out of character. It was weaselly and braggadocios. The Lord of the Dreadfort is cold and cunning. As I stated in the complaints I linked to in my original post:

Roose’s performance here was a huge disappointment. I was setting my expectations high assuming this actor would be the one to do everything right. I was thoroughly enjoying his portrayal of the Leech Lord up until this point. He seemed so smug whereas in the books, he barely made an attempt to talk to anyone. He played his part perfectly while most of the Freys were a nervous wreck. But he was never cheeky about it. Here, he looks like he’s taking great pleasure in taunting the Starks as if he hates them. Roose is a man who plays for the winning team and takes no particular joy in betrayal. He just accepts that it’s practical and carries out his atrocities without guilt. In addition to screwing up his behavior, the actor got his body movements all wrong as well. Roose is supposed to glide in and out of the hall as confident and smooth as can be. Here, he darts around, ducking his head and lunging out of harm’s way. It’s just so unlike the Lord of the Dreadfort. But most importantly, he says to Robb just before he stabs him “the Lannisters send their regards.” I’m sorry, but why did you change that from “the Kingslayer sends his regards?” Why do you think G.R.R. Martin set it up that way? Cat is supposed to believe Jaime had a hand in her son’s demise from that statement. Cat freed Jaime so she instantly thinks she’s killed her own son with her foolish actions. She’s supposed to believe that Jaime betrayed her later on in the series.

10)

So say “Jamie Lannister” even though Jamie stated “The Lannisters”, and make sure he’s wearing a cloak he’s never worn on the show before ever because…well…BOOK!!!!!

No, I changed it for the reason quoted above. His last words to Robb and Catelyn are essentially a lie and it only makes it even more tragic. Robb died believing his mother screwed him over by freeing his eventual killer. Cat died believing she screwed (what she thought) was her last surviving son over by freeing his eventual killer. They changed it so people who don't pay attention wouldn't think Jaime had a part in the Red Wedding. They altered the author's work because they are catering to a particular audience and it took away from the tragedy. In the books, he wears a pink cloak. I changed it to red. While I think pink could actually be quite jarring on a sadistic killer, I thought it would get the opposite reaction out of a lot of people. The cloak, to me, symbolizes independence from Robb. He's ready to slip into his role as Warden of the North. The dark armor also symbolizes this. He's wearing extravagant battle armor because he's now more than he was under Robb's command.

11)

So now we’re onto significant special affects beyond just what’s needed for a throat slit, since we need her to have a bunch of portions of her face able to be “slashed” while still looking like her. Also, we’re setting up increased costs and time for casting in the future by making a far more difficult lady stoneheart look. All to show her desperation at the time, something widely proclaimed as an understood bit of emotion even by show watches due to the actresses excellent work at the end. So again, an action for the purpose of………making the book readers happy and nothing else. Yay.`

Blackwater special effects are significant. Facial scarring is not significant. This is how I feel about the throat slit:

the gore in this episode was completely unrealistic and tainted by Hollywood action movies. People do not instantly lose consciousness when their throat is cut then fall to the floor dead. When your esophagus is severed, you lose the ability to breathe through your mouth/nose and begin breathing out of a hole in your neck. This is largely impossible though since the wound bleeds profusely, clogging your esophagus with fluids. You essentially drown on your own blood in a panic, making all sorts of horrible snorting noises for up to three minutes. I’m not even sure G.R.R. Martin was aware of this before writing the Red Wedding but slitting throats was never described as one fell graze upon the neck. Catelyn SAWED through this person’s throat until they died. Stabbing a person in their heart is another matter but looks like Bolton missed the mark! Roose had a tiny dagger in place of a longsword and apparently decided to stab Robb in the lower part of his lung (causing instant death… ?).

Their team makes great scars. Look at Tyrion's scar from Ser Mandon Moore. Look at Jon's scars from Orell's hawk. They look very real. Portions of her face don't have to be missing because she never actually tore chunks of her face off. And Lady Stoneheart has only made about two or three appearances so far in the series anyway. Cost and time is not concerned here in the slightest. I have always liked Michelle Fairley's performance as Cat and I never doubted her. She did extremely well during the massacre but I found the catatonic state at the end stupid and it paled in comparison to how she was in the books. When I read Catelyn's last POV, I set down the book and said out loud "Damn, that's fucked up." Her last moment on screen would not have gotten the same reaction out of me even if I had never read A Storm of Swords. I would've still thought it was awkward. I don't blame the actor; I blame whoever told her that was a good idea, filmed it, and used it in the final cut. Sure, it's something you can understand but it's not something you feel. Huh. That's actually a perfect way to summarize the entirety of Benioff and Weiss's Red Wedding in my opinion. "Something you understood but not something you felt."

12)

Thus removing the amazing cut to black that left non-book readers (and some book readers as well) largely with their mouths slackjawed open, and removing one of the deaths that seemingly brought forward the correct type of emotions of the Red Wedding in many non-book readers in terms of the viewed execution of Grey Wind (this got a ton of run as “the worst death” to watch from many commenters). This on top of already removing Talisa’s death and Baby Ned Starks. You’ve swapped out the emotional impact of a death of a character we’ve been heavily following and an unborn baby for the death of a guy who’d be recast and would largely be irrelevant to the audience. And this is supposed to better bestow the feeling of the Red Wedding from the book? Not without having you as the new producer and writer for the whole series up to this point as well.

I think if Catelyn's death was done like I described (like how George R.R. Martin described) I think it would not only have left viewers with their jaws dropped open, it would likely have disturbed them as well. My ending also has a cliffhanger the original didn't so I don't get how you see this as taking away from anything. In the last scene with Arya and Sandor, they're told to take their salt pork to the tents. In the last scene of the episode, we see the tents on fire, collapsing on thousands of people. There still is an "amazing cut to black."

Like I said earlier, my opinion on Grey Wind's death was that it was so lacking in dramatic force or quality, you barely even cared. The scene seemed forced to me. Like they just wanted to convey that he died in the easiest way possible. The fact that he died is sad but his actual death scene was unimaginative and boring. The dog they used wasn't even freaking out. It looked more like someone was holding a treat on the other side of the door. I think they just wanted to get to the direwolf-head-on-Robb's-dead-body scene and really didn't care how they did it.

Again, concerning the Greatjon, it depends on whether or not his actor was persuaded to come back for this episode or if he was recast at a much earlier date. His death isn't meant to depress you, it's meant to shock you. Here's a character who's been around since season one and he gets his head lopped off unexpectedly when what seems like reinforcements burst through the hall. Up until that point, he's saving Robb. You think maybe they'll survive and then suddenly "hope blows out like a candle." You think I want to replace Talisa's role with the Greatjon's but you're wrong. I just intended the Greatjon to be one of the many familiar Stark bannermen who die at the wedding. Talisa being there and Robb's child being killed took away from what the scene was supposed to be about.

Jeyne’s (Talisa’s) death, besides being totally uncanon, took away from the relationship between mother and son. It wasn’t supposed to be about Jeyne or Robb’s child. It was supposed to be about Catelyn and HER child. This is the relationship we had come to understand in-depth from Cat’s perspective since the first book.

Robb is a boy trying his earnest to be a good king in the books. He marries a girl he hardly knows because he deflowered her and wanted to do the honorable thing. He is merely smitten with her for the short period of time they're husband & wife. It's puppy love. If I can speak frankly for a moment, what the producers did was turn this meaningless teenage romance into some sappy, cliché, story book, fairy tale-type love shit which didn't interest me in the least or evoke any sort of emotional response. I thought it was stupid as hell. It wasn't real. It was like a horrible rip off of Twilight. I was already so sick of Richard Madden trying to portray Robb as some sort of tough guy by the time "Talisa" was introduced and her character just made me hate him even more. Robb's supposed to be a virgin before they meet and yet he's manhandling her during their first kiss? What? Being completely honest, I hated every scene with Robb and Talisa. I hated Robb. I hated Talisa. I even hated little Ned. Not really, but I felt nothing when they died except annoyance because the showrunners spoiled a plot device for me in the books that hadn't been confirmed to mean anything yet. You know G.R.R.M. gave D&D the ok because Jeyne and her possible pregnancy wouldn't have any sort of importance in future books. It wasn't about romance! Their relationship was adulterated and blown out of proportion. The Red Wedding was about the repercussions of breaking your promises, keeping your honor, and trusting a FREY! NEVER TRUST A FREY! Robb was being a teenager when his title didn't allow for childish blunders. He was being a teenager and he was butchered for it! Even though he was trying to make ammends! Cat's relationship with her "last surviving son" is what's supposed to be tugging at your heart strings; not "oh poor Talisa, poor baby Eddard, poor papa Robb because he lost his wife and kid." No! Robb is the kid! Catelyn is the parent! At least they killed off Talisa so it was only mother and son left in the end. At least Richard Madden's acting skills are mediocre enough that he didn't actually look sad over Talisa's death. At least I have that to be grateful for. I'm ranting bad right now. Moving on...

13)

then you back pedal and explain that for your “adaptation” to work really we would’ve needed you basically rewriting the entire series as a producer because it hinges on MULTIPLE other writing and production changes to have been done, all of which with their own host of issues and problems. Wonderful logic.

Well, like I mentioned in my complaints, The Red Wedding was D&D's ultimate goal in the series and they've been saying that since the very beginning. Maybe the issue is that they weren't thinking ahead far enough and got stuck with the limitations they set themselves up for. However, I actually think they're pretty satisfied with themselves concerning this episode and that's part of the reason I decided to write my own version.

That's not "back pedaling." I was discussing the possibility that the Red Wedding turned out the way it did due to budgetary restrictions but stated immediately afterwards that this was most likely not the case. I said if D&D wanted to do more for this episode, it's their own fault because they spent their money on less important things like numerous shots of King's Landing throughout the season that served no purpose other than to look pretty. I don't remember saying I had to make changes before this episode for my adaption to work. In my response to The Hairy Bear, I criticized D&D's version; not my own. If I couldn't bring Walder Rivers back, I'd recast him. He was on screen for fifteen seconds tops in the first season and said one line. Easily replaced. If the actor for the Greatjon refused to be in the episode under manageable conditions, I would leave him out and replace his roles with Owen Norrey. Not as powerful seeing someone you've just learned existed die but at least I'd be able to introduce him offhandedly like Jinglebell and depict the desperation of Robb's bannermen trying to save their king amidst the chaos.

Regardless, like I told The Hairy Bear, this is a hypothetical. It might be plausible; it might not. Seeing as no one knows the exact budgetary restrictions and approximate cost to do the things I suggested, nobody can say it's implausible.

14)

by and large, all I see is a script aimed at trying to do as direct of an adaptation as possible, not something attempting to make a compelling television episode within the constraints of reality adapted from the book.

You're saying that a direct adaption of George R.R. Martin's books wouldn't make for compelling television but that's what Game of Thrones is. The best scenes are the ones straight from the books. The Red Wedding was arguably the most memorable, emotionally distressing event in the entire series and it deserved to be adapted as closely as possible. There was nothing wrong with it. However, I did change things for the sake of "compelling television." Those who are shortsightedly claiming I'm a book purist who only replicated exactly what was written in the books aren't acknowledging all the things I've chosen to leave out. Here's a list skimming through Catelyn's chapters:

1. Patrek Mallister

2. Marq Piper

3. Talisa's Family

4. Smalljon Umber

5. The Drinking Games

6. Merrett Frey

7. Danwell Frey

8. Lucas Blackwood

9. Raymund Frey

10. Benfrey Frey

11. Donnel Locke

12. Robin Flint

13. Any mention of Perwyn Frey, Olyvar Frey, or Alesander Frey

14. Jon's Inheritance

• Any mention of Jon Snow whatsoever
  

15. Petyr Frey

• Grey Wind ripping Petyr off his horse
  

16. Hosteen Frey

• Hosteen Frey killing Lucas Blackwood
  

17. Leslyn Haigh

• Greatjon biting off Leslyn Haigh's ear
  

18. Whalen Frey

• Whalen Frey intimidating Raynald Westerling
  

19. Raynald Westerling

• Raynald Westerling freeing Grey Wind
  
• Raynald Westerling falling into the river
  

20. Dacey Mormont

• Dacey's Dance
  
• Dacey's Death
  

21. The Great Northern Conspiracy

• Maege Mormont
  
• Jason Mallister
  
• Canon Galbart Glover
  
• Moat Cailin
  

And that's just in Robb's arc. I could go on at great length but it's getting late and I'm tired.

[Aerys Blackfyre]

nice post, I read it with pleasure!

[CestWhat]

This is later on, but in the next episode, Davos reads an invitation aloud to Shireen for her cousin Rylene Florent's nameday. I would have changed it to something like an invitation for the wedding of Rhea Florent to Leyton Hightower and Davos makes a joke that after this week when news got out about The Twins, not too many people are going to be accepting wedding invitation anymore (especially as its now June and going into high wedding season so everybody is getting a lot of wedding invitations).

[GREYJOY4LYFE]

Davos doesn't strike me as one to make little japes about a massacre.

[Lord Elrosir]

Especially not to an innocent young girl like Shireen. Thats a jape you make when you're "in your cups".

[Teardrops]

* http://s20.postimg.o...9p/d_RGEU.png *

Best quote in this thread:

"because...well....BOOK!!!"

yeah the best way to sum up this absurd rant.

[CestWhat]

Davos doesn't strike me as one to make little japes about a massacre.

C'mon, let's not be so serious about this fictional world (write the person on a fandom forum). The whole point of the nameday letter was as a mini-joke (not a really funny though) so just adding a different layer.

[Joyful Union]

Gregor, no offense or anything, but unless you're a TV producer, this is an absolutely pointless endeavour. Without being a skilled professional in the field, you have no idea how much any of this will cost, how much time it will consume, if it's even possible from a production standpoint. Is the only point of this is to show that the book is better?

[GREYJOY4LYFE]

C'mon, let's not be so serious about this fictional world (write the person on a fandom forum). The whole point of the nameday letter was as a mini-joke (not a really funny though) so just adding a different layer.

I'm not taking it too seriously, just stating that this would be adding a line that is completely out of character.

[CestWhat]

I'm not taking it too seriously, just stating that this would be adding a line that is completely out of character.

He could say it in a gloomy way...

[CestWhat]

Is the only point of this is to show that the book is better?

Sometimes it seems like 99.9999999999% of this forum is dedicated to that idea.

[GREYJOY4LYFE]

He could say it in a gloomy way...

I guess. Just seems like something more reserved for Tyrion.

[CestWhat]

I guess. Just seems like something more reserved for Tyrion.

That's cause the show only gives Tyrion the funny lines (or maybe Diana Rigg although Conleth Hill has one of the greats with "It's the Lysa Arryn of Chairs") Feel they could bare to make spread the funny lines around a bit more (not that wedding invitation is funny, but as a general concept)

[Joyful Union]

That's cause the show only gives Tyrion the funny lines (or maybe Diana Rigg although Conleth Hill has one of the greats with "It's the Lysa Arryn of Chairs") Feel they could bare to make spread the funny lines around a bit more (not that wedding invitation is funny, but as a general concept)

I don't know, Bronn is pretty hilarious, Dolorous Edd in his brief appearances (we need more Edd!). I feel this season was a lot less grim in parts then previous seasons.