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[Book Spoilers] EP310 Discussion

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Interesting conversation about the show not having Tyrion kill Shae....I think that would be a huge mistake on D & D part to change that part of the plot. They are already setting up the plot about her being jealous of Sansa, etc, and while they do present Tyrion in a more positive light than the books. The depth and layer of the characters is the best part of this series. Love can drive people mad and it would be much more powerful to show Shae turning on Tyrion and him in turn strangling her to death before killing his father then do a cop out version where Tywin hangs Shae which ultimately drives Tyrion to kill his father.

I can understand why they changed the Talisa plot for the show because more emphasis was placed on Robb in the show. I've always thought it was ridiculous in the books that he would marry a Westerling girl and that he signed his death warrant by doing so. Meeting a random foreign girl however and falling in love is much more reasonable and believable. You can be blinded by love of that nature, but everyone of your advisers and banner-man would leave your side the minute you married the daughter of the enemy.

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Hey, first post here so I'm sorry if this is a bit stupid/I the wrong place.

I just have a question concerning Jon Snows story in episode 9/10. Why the hell did he leave Ygritte? He clearly liked her a lot if he was willing to break his vows for her. I understand why he pushed her over during his battle with the wildings, because clearly he didn't want her to get hurt or potentially die for him, and I understand why he left her the first time seeing as how He hadn't killed all the wildings.

But when she caught him up, all he said was 'I have to go home now,' leaving her once again at a perfect opportunity to keep her and return to the NW. Why?!

Some would argue that he did what Robb should have done and put duty over love, but there's a huge difference. Had Robb have broken up with Talisa she'd still be on his side, surely Jon must have known that by leaving the woman he loved she'd end up fighting against him? And surely he must know that she'll die seeing as how he didn't even think she could take on the other wildings with him? That doesn't seem like an honourable 'Jon Snow' thing to do, and I can actually really sympathise with Ygritte. (Plus she's attractive AF)

Of course it may have been risky to bring her back to the other crows but she was willing to pick Jon over the wildings, and she's much more likely to survive there than with the wildings. He warned her, and she seemed to heed his warning seeing as how she fought for him, yet when she does he leaves her...he really could have just said 'put the bow down and escape with me'?

Go easy, I'm not a book reader...but if anybody can tell me why, I'd like to know.

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I just have a question concerning Jon Snows story in episode 9/10. Why the hell did he leave Ygritte? He clearly liked her a lot if he was willing to break his vows for her.

To me, it ties a lot with what Ygritte said about Jon being loyal to his woman on "The Climb, which I have no doubt he'll remain for the rest of his life - not that he can actually cheat on her in a Wall full of men - but, as loyal as Jon is to his woman, he has a job as well and he intends to finish it. He loves her, he said so himself. But he's a crow and will remain one for as long as he is alive. Edited by silentwanderer

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To me, it ties a lot with what Ygritte said about Jon being loyal to his woman on "The Climb, which I have no doubt he'll remain for the rest of his life - not that he can actually cheat on her in a Wall full of men - but, as loyal as Jon is to his woman, he has a job as well and he intends to finish it. He loves her, he said so himself. But he's a crow and will remain one for as long as he is alive.

Thank you, that's made it a little clearer to me. I just don't understand why Jon would leave behind a woman who he loved enough to have sex with. That takes a lot, Jon said so when he told Sam that the reason he'd never had sex was because he never wanted to give a bastard to someone he didnt truly love. If Ygritte was to live on and they never saw each other again, and happened to be carrying Jons child which we wouldn't yet know, surely that defies what he said?

Edited by PeterStark

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Thank you, that's made it a little clearer to me. I just don't understand why Jon would leave behind a woman who he loved enough to have sex with. That takes a lot, Jon said so when he told Sam that the reason he'd never had sex was because he never wanted to give a bastard to someone he didnt truly love. If Ygritte was to live on and they never saw each other again, and happened to be carrying Jons child which we wouldn't yet know, surely that defies what he said?

Well, he was doing his duty. Remember what Maester Aemon said about that. He asked what Ned would do when love was balanced against duty.

He's his father's son. Despite what some here think.

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Very true. In fact I may be wrong, but of the little knowledge of the books I have, doesn't Jon acknowledge that, however much he regretted leaving her, his father had a duty and so would he? That's makes it a lot easier to understand.

It's definitely harder for Jon, as Ned, as with Robb had he picked his duty over Talisa, would never have to fight against them or the people they stood for. Maybe Ned did...I'm not too sure to be honest I really need to read the books.

I feel a lot of sympathy for Ygritte. As much as Jon loved her she was his ploy to fit in with the wildings. That said, maybe she wouldn't have been so heartbroken had she not lead Jon into his temptations and created a relationship. Still though, a rather cruel thing for honourable Jon to do. There could have been other ways to warm his way into the wildings without using their affection for one another. It's only going to weaken them when they come up against one another.

Now I haven't read the books so sorry if im off, but from Mhysa I'm predicting that either:

A) the emotional tension between Jon and Ygritte will be the death of one of them, especially since they emphasised the 'live together, die together' stuff. Probably Ygritte as there are still a lot of unanswered questions on Jons character.

B)Ygritte will carry Jons child which will tear him up as the main reason he never slept with a woman was because of his fear of giving her a bastard.

Don't tell me if I'm right, I'd rather watch and find out :) it's hard to say which ones in the wrong really, Jon was cruel to make their affection with one another a tool for his duty. Ygritte shouldn't have tempted him and expected him to become wilding when she wouldn't become a crow.

EDIT: another concern regarding this topic. As the previous poster says, he couldn't have taken her back to the NW which makes sense. What doesn't make sense is that Sam could take Gilly back fine and is under protection whereas Ygritte can't?

Edited by PeterStark

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I think one of the things that are clearer in the books is the degree to which Jon sruggled with this very issue. We don't get inside his mind in the show to anything like the same extent as in the books.

For Gilly vs. Ygritte, what jumps to mind is that Gilly was in some sense seeking asylum; Ygritte was not. Also, she was fighting against the watch, while Gilly was an unarmed refugee.

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True, the show has really let me down on expanding on Jons character some more. Maybe in season 4 he'll shed some light through discussions with Sam once Ygritte dies.

Really think they should keep Ygritte alive, not exactly forever but definitely for longer. Rose Leslie is a great actor and became a bit of a fan favourite so it'd kind of piss people off that her death has a few loopholes in it.

Some people may say she wouldn't go to Castle Black. However in the spare of the moment she picked Jon over the wildings. She even caught up with him which doesn't happen in the books and Jon had yet another chance. She said herself its about their relationship not the battle between crows and wildings. Jon had to stick it out with the wildings for survival, so I'm sure she would have stuck out at Castle Black.

Maybe Jon didn't take her because he didn't think the NW would let her stay, but the story should have made this clear by not letting Gilly stay. As you say, Gilly seeked asylum whereas Ygritte did not, but Jon could always make Ygritte out to be an asylum seeker to keep her alive, maybe saying that she wanted to escape the wildings and Jon gave her that opportunity?

Edited by PeterStark

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It was a welcomed surprised Ygritte ended ended up this season alive, as I was sure they were going to end in the middle point of the book.(a.k.a. the biggest fire the north has ever seen)

Thank you, that's made it a little clearer to me. I just don't understand why Jon would leave behind a woman who he loved enough to have sex with. That takes a lot, Jon said so when he told Sam that the reason he'd never had sex was because he never wanted to give a bastard to someone he didnt truly love. If Ygritte was to live on and they never saw each other again, and happened to be carrying Jons child which we wouldn't yet know, surely that defies what he said?

I don't think any son Jon would father with Ygritte would be a bastard because he made the point that every wildling would know she was his woman, particularly Orell. If she ever has a child, then everyone would know who is the father of said child, which is the only reason Jon avoided it before (he doesn't know who was his mother). Edited by silentwanderer

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Ah thanks that makes sense of why Jon slept with Ygritte. As one of the previous posters said, I think the main issue is that the show hasn't really captured Jons emotions on his relationship with Ygritte. He doesn't really explain his reasons for leaving Ygritte. There's no denying that Jon acted rather cruelly no matter how dutiful his actions were. If he truly loved Ygritte, he should have thought it through and realised she's more likely to survive under the pretence of an asylum seeker at Castle Black than with the wildings. It wouldn't have taken much convincing.

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I thought the scene where Jon clean his wounds serves that purpose: he explained himself better than he did on the books IMO. He's not a child trying to hold on to his first girlfriend, he's a man of the Night's Watch, saying goodbye to one of Mance's Rayder's most loyal soldiers (its a theme Jon would revisit, as he chooses the Watch over love, over children, over his friends, over his own sisters even).

Edited by silentwanderer

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Rewatched Ep 4 recently and wanted to comment on something. The Fermat spiral in the end scene is also seen in the end scene of the season finale

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What do you think about the Shea situaion...

I think they are making a 180° spin on Shae's plot to fool those of us who read the books. She's more Tysha than book Shae at this point so I reckon that, if she dies, Tyrion is not going to be the one that kills her. Edited by silentwanderer

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One further complicating factor in the books (I can't recall for certain in the show, but I think the same holds) is that Qhorin had charged Jon with doing "whatever the wildlings asked of him"; and he interpreted that as including hooha-ing with Ygritte. (There are some details missing in the show; I particularly like that

Ygritte revealed that she and Jon were having an amour before they'd actually started

.)

As for Shae, this is what I suspect as well, but I wonder where they'll go with the jealousy. Maybe nowhere.

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I think they are making a 180° spin on Shae's plot to fool those of us who read the books. She's more Tysha than book Shae at this point so I reckon that, if she dies, Tyrion is not going to be the one that kills her.

I'm in agreement. There seem to be heavy hints being dropped as to Shae and Tyrion's future, but from where I can gather of where this plot is going, I can honestly say that I cannot see Tyrion intentionally killing Shae. I mean, I could be wrong, but I think that he will somehow kill her by accident whilst perhaps taking a pot shot at his Dad, spare her completely, be deceived into believing that he has killed her or witness Tywin killing her and then murder him in retaliation - honestly, the latter is looking more probable to me atm.

GRRM has stated that a major change is set to be made to the TV version which might upset book readers (although I concur that this might apply to a near multitude of changes which have already taken place), but really, at this point in time, I cannot see Tyrion murdering Shae - although the same cannot be said for Tywin.

Edited by the_one_who_was_promised

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Just read that GRRM has officially confirmed that Oberyn Martell, Mace Tyrell, Magnar of Thenn, and Lady Stoneheart will all be in season 4, god I can't wait!!!!

Woop!! - Pardon my immature response but there had been online rumours that LS was being written out of the show completely, or was being replaced with Talisa as the undead matriach seeking retaliation on the Starks' behalf - although it was never explained how, or if, that was going to work.

So, really happy that we will be seeing LS next season after all - also it will be very interesting to see who will be cast in the respective roles of Oberyn, Mace, and Magnar.

Roll on season 4! :)

Edited by the_one_who_was_promised

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Woop!! - Pardon my immature response but there had been online rumours that LS was being written out of the show completely, or was being replaced with Talisa as the undead matriach seeking retaliation on the Starks' behalf - although it was never explained how, or if, that was going to work.

So, really happy that we will be seeing LS next season after all - also it will be very interesting to see who will be cast in the respective roles of Oberyn, Mace, and Magnar.

Roll on season 4! :)

Agreed also Pedro Pascal has been cast as Oberyn:

http://cdn.theatermania.com/article/47987/1.jpg

Edited by Jon Icefyre

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Agreed also Pedro Pascal has been cast as Oberyn:

http://cdn.theaterma...cle/47987/1.jpg

I haven't seen this guy's work but his credentials look quite impressive.

So this leaves Magnar and Mace Tyrell - some pretty impressive names seem to have been linked with the latter including Brian Cox and Jim Broadbent. Although I could picture Cox as Tyrell, I can honestly say that I think that they might both be just a bit too high profile for GoT and sources have indicated that they might have scheduling conflicts in any case.

Personally, I would love to see Dominic West (The Wire) or James Frain (True Blood) get either one of these roles but we'll see.

Edited by the_one_who_was_promised

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