[Book/Show Spoilers] What will Stannis do next season?

[GoldenFleece]

Not a Stannis fan, but I don't like how in the TV show they have made him into Mel's b***h. Stannis is no-one's b***h to be honest. I mean he just seems to change his mind on a whim on whatever she says, Stannis was never like that.

[Mark the Red]

At the rate they are going with burying Stannis's character, I expect him to have the following scenes:

1. Fawning all over Mel wanting sex, and then crying and threatening suicide if she doesn't give him some.

2. Dinner with his wife, eating the contents of one of those fetus jars while he bitches about not having an heir to burn for Mel.

3. Acting like a dick to Davos and having Davos swoon all over him anyway like he just got his pek sucked.

That should about cover it for the first episode, I will have to give some thought for what bullshit they will pour on him for the other 9 episodes.

Pure lol. Great post!

[Mark the Red]

Well there has been reems of writing on this subject already, but I will echo the view that TV Stannis feels a lot different from book Stannis. And not for the better.

My favorite forum post on Stannis on this forum is here. Excerpt below:

WHY SO SERIOUS????!!!! I’ll end this where I always knew I would- by talking about the serious man.

Look, when I saw Stannis watch his fleet burning his reaction was ... Stannis.

Fleet on fire? Then I’ll lead the boats myself.

Wildfire? The Imp played his best card too soon.

Hundreds dead? No, thousands.

Get to the beach? Fuck off- I’M GETTING INTO MY THRONE ROOM!!!

The sword, the face, the eyes, the voice, the fury, the fury, THE FURY!!! Stannis owned. Absolutely from start to “Voltron-combination-to-defeat-him” ending, Stannis was what made this work. Those people inside that city have to be afraid... but of what? Something? No... someone... If Stannis was a tool of Mal; if Stannis was weak, or unsure, or vacillating, or a delegator or if he were anything but that fucking rage-machine that climbed… the ladder … first … that whole scene is just a bunch of idiots trying to look like their fighting on a beach at night. In order for us to feel that the city was REALLY in danger

… the Danger has to land on the beach….

… the Danger has to scream for his ladders…

.... the Danger has to climb that wal...

… the Danger has to kill Lannisters….

….the Danger has to command his forces while screaming to take his city back…

And he worked. We bought it the whole way. Stannis was what we thought he was: the fury; the enemy; the fear; the danger. The Other.

And he lost. He lost in the only way he could have lost- Tyrion+Tywin+Highgarden+King’s Landing+Aerys Targaryen’s fucking wildfire. Seriously- Sun Tzu probably has a chapter for Stannis entitled, “And sometimes everyone in the world really is out to get you.”

But… but this one last parting message… That was Book 2. In Book 5 (and the sample chapter we have out there in the future) Tywin- dead; Tyrion- dispossessed; Robb- dead; Balon-dead; Renly- still dead; Joff- dead; Cersei- meaningless; Hound- out of commission.

But out there in the snow, with his flock of captured Karstarks, and his army of half-crazed Northerrers and Southerners ...just like on the water before…

…the Danger … is still coming….

Echoed what I felt was Stannis main appeal. He is utterly fearless and will never stop. Never. That's what makes him a great and likeable character and the most appealing "King" in my book. Harsh, unliked, cold. You bet, all those things. But he of all the characters in the books has the most fire in his belly. Excuse the pun.

He has a goal and he is actively working towards that goal despite the insurmountable odds against him. The few and growing followers of Stannis in book 5 clearly see and understand that and are obviously loyal to him for his remarkable actions at the wall and Deepwood Motte. That's good characterization and it gives the reader hope that Stannis will be the most likely vector for revenge against the Boltons and Freys.

I don't make him out to be a Christ like god figure, but I don't see why he is more cruel or harsh than Dany, Khal Drogo, etc. who the show bends over backwards to romanticize? Just why are we supposed to like Dany more? Because she's pretty? Because she takes off on Dragon safari's while her people are under siege?

Maybe D&D are just doing the Jamie Lannister thing to Stannis. I.e., Making him out worse in the TV series just because most of the TV viewers have been raised by Disney and have to be spoon fed the villain part of the redemption arc. They certainly have made Jamie more likeable this last half of the season than they did with the hell-spawn of Satan characterization of him for the first 2.5. Lets hope they do the same with Stannis. (Please D&D! Please!)

[Thelastactionhero]

The only thing I think some of us might have misinterpreted, due to how haphazardly the scene is done, is how Stannis spares Davos. Melisdandre does try to consul him to spare Davos, but if you notice, Stannis says: "I've made my decision," before even hearing her. He's laughing at the end at the irony that the Red God Davos likes to mock has chosen him for some higher end or purpose, rather than Melisandre being the reason he doesn't execute him. So while I do think they went in the wrong direction with Stannis, I am going to hold out some semblance of hope for a kickass redemption arc.

[silentwanderer]

... I don't like how in the TV show they have made him into Mel's b***h. Stannis is no-one's b***h to be honest....

Personally, I see Stannis as the same heathen willing to use her to win battles that he was on the books.

The only difference is that he enjoys the carnal relationship he has with her in a way the character never quite did on the book.

[The Killer Snark]

Book Stannis is in many ways quite naive, and finds it difficult to get a definitive grasp on people's true intentions, though he knows deep down when he's being given bad advice, and just needs someone to confirm it. This is why he respects Davos and Jon so much, because they are both characters who'll dissemble out of pure necessity and not simply to further their own ends. Book Stannis would have wanted any excuse not to have to kill Davos for treason, and actually spares him by imprisoning him instead of just executing him straightaway for his attempt on Melisandre because he wasn't sure yet what the right thing was to do. If Melisandre's religion is of use to him gaining the throne, he'll use her influence, purely because it's justified in the moral end of his gaining the throne. I'm not overly passionate against it, but unless non-readers look for nuances in scenes the show is not making obvious, they'll just see his relationship with Mel as the Mel and her sidekick show: and I'm interested to see how they resolve this issue in the next season, which is where Stannis in the novels really starts to come into his own.

[zeus]

As a stannis fan I wasn't too pleased on how they portrayed him this season and feel that season 4 will be the way they can redeem it and make him look good again. This would be done by obv saving the nights watch.

I doubt he will have a lot of screen time at all and given the amount he had in this season he will probably only appear in 3 episodes or so.

Which is sad.

[aceluby]

For as good as you stannis fans are at picking up the nuances in the books, you guys really miss a lot of the nuances on screen. You don't get to have 20 pages showing how difficult the decisions he made are, so instead you have visual cues, camera angles, shots, etc... For example the way Stannis is looking out as Mel and Davos stand behind them consulting him, one on the left by the fire convincing him to sacrifice (devil) one on the right convincing him to not (angel). I've read a couple of threads railing on this scene in particular and was amazed nobody picked up on this. This episode was FILLED w/ little tidbits like this to convey some of the books more subtle nuances that drive stannis fans toward stannis.

[zaphodbrx]

For as good as you stannis fans are at picking up the nuances in the books, you guys really miss a lot of the nuances on screen. You don't get to have 20 pages showing how difficult the decisions he made are, so instead you have visual cues, camera angles, shots, etc... For example the way Stannis is looking out as Mel and Davos stand behind them consulting him, one on the left by the fire convincing him to sacrifice (devil) one on the right convincing him to not (angel). I've read a couple of threads railing on this scene in particular and was amazed nobody picked up on this. This episode was FILLED w/ little tidbits like this to convey some of the books more subtle nuances that drive stannis fans toward stannis.

Visual cues don't really help when you are completely intent on butchering a character.

I will get some quotes from the unsullied forums to show what tv-only readers think of Stannis. It is almost unanimously that he is unlikable, evil, indecisive and a total slave.

[Pepi]

A few thoughts on ep10 Stannis; despite Davos being sentenced, he's still prepared to listen to Davos. Even though initially Mel goes against it. Also, there was frustration (more than real anger or anything). Firstly, because (freshly pardoned) Davos disobeyed his orders and saved Gendry behind his back and secondly, because he's kinda caught between two factions which simply can't work in the long run. And there was relief present, after Mel saves Davos. Because one enemy saving another, in his eyes, is a step into right direction. At least that's how I interpreted these scenes. I will not say TV Stannis is same as book Stannis to the last letter. But he does seem sufficiently conflicted -- which puts him above a simple, one dimensional villian (which some of you imply) to me. Dillane's acting is all about facial expresions and grimaces, rather than the words, so some folks (and I'm not being condescending) might overlook it. Will say this, tho; all the Dragonstone scenes in this episode seemed pretty fast forward. Because of that some of the decisions made by the characters seemed rather ... uncontemplated. Could use a few more minutes, but if u looked closely enough, everything was pretty much still there. :)

I know this isn't the right topic, but I saw the debate and thought I'd dropped my 5 cents. Oh, and btw ... I think the argument of the writers not liking Stannis (and therefor butchering his story), is pure nonsense. They're pros, for Christ's sake.

[ser benjamin]

Im not sure Stannis is a villain.... but he is definitely not a hero. (for the most part.... and i understand he is in other POVs) We pretty much only see him through the mind of Davos, who, despite all the abuse, reveres and respects him. That taints the narrative because the reader is constantly reminded how noble an fair and honorable King Stannis is. The show, being told from a third person POV, is free from Davos' opinions and we get to see Stannis for who he is. His intentions are good enough, but they are horribly twisted by the Red Religion....

(as a side, and a totally different topic.... Doesnt Tyrion observe the High Red Priest in Volantis preaching that Dany is AA?.... does this mean Mel is in disagreement with her church? hasnt gotten the memo... am i totally off?)

Stannis does villainous things (Renly, potentially Gendric....kinslaying) but does it for the "better good"..... that is, "better good" defined as him being the savior of mankind, which he so clearly is not.

[Stannis' shadow babies]

The moment that gave me some hope from that scene was Davos saying "you're gonna need me" and Stannis quickly asking "Why I'm going to need you" not angry but actually interested in listening what Davos had to say.

I guess I'll save my final opinion to season 4.

I still miss his skeptical attitude about religion from the books, though. I'l love if they had him saying the lines about not really believing in any god after his parents died.

On a side note, I hope they keep the 'save the kingdom to win the throne' to some sort of speech (if Stannis could ever give any) for when he marches to the wall -perhaps a la Yara/Asha- That...if they show it at all. Maybe they'll want to keep the suspense, probably making him act as if he doesn't give a fuck for whatever reason :lol:

ETA to reply the previous poster: We also see Stannis through Jon's eyes, right? And Jon helps and advices Stannis, just like Davos

[ser benjamin]

yes. as i said, we DO get other POVs on Stannis. However.... what i consider to be.. his misdeeds are told through Davos, who cleans em up a bit with his respect for Stannis. We get to know him through Davos.... probably should have phrased it that way.

[Stannis' shadow babies]

Sorry my bad :/

Anyway...So great is Davos' devotion for Stannis that he has the need to clean up the things his king does or says or his motivations even in his own mind, when no one is listening? I don't know if I can see Davos as someone who would lie to himselft. After all, he's willing to do things against his King's (apparent) will..I don't know really, but I admit that you may have a point. Davos loves his king, and that may cloud his judgment, even his most inner thoughts and opinions...In that sense, the TV show could be more 'objective' ...maybe..

[Envie]

I've talked to some non book readers and most aren't really sure about Stannis. Some think he's a darkhorse contender (being purposely downplayed) while others think he's a total putz. I have to agree that I think they've done Stannis somewhat wrong in the show from who he was in the books, especially the way he seems much more controlled by Melisandre and her Succubus style in the show.

I think they will speed up the plot a lot with Stannis and have him go directly to the wall next season where he'll play a bigger role in a lot of the drama and events leading up to the invasion of the wall beforehand. Though not as dramatic as how he just suddenly appeared on the scene in the books, I think it could work if they do it correctly. Otherwise, there's not much more for Stannis to do next season unless they intend to leave him out for most of it and that would only further confuse viewers who already don't seem to know what they think of Stannis or even like him.

[aceluby]

Visual cues don't really help when you are completely intent on butchering a character.

I will get some quotes from the unsullied forums to show what tv-only readers think of Stannis. It is almost unanimously that he is unlikable, evil, indecisive and a total slave.

That's fine, but many (most) people read the book and don't pick up on the Stannis nuances either, so asking people who haven't read the book and probably don't pick up subtle visual cues is not indicative of whether they exist and can be interpreted to further a similar nuanced character as the book.

What I gave is one example, but if you look into the Stannis scenes and pay attention to things like lighting, the placement of fire, the placement of characters, and the shots they choose to use you definitely can see the portrayal of a very grey, complex character. Personally, I'm glad they aren't hitting you over the head with it, because in the books you have Davos vs everyone else in regards to how it's portrayed. In the show it's the same way and you need to dig deeper than what's presented to you at face value to get his complexity, again, like the book.

[silentwanderer]

Book Stannis is in many ways quite naive, and finds it difficult to get a definitive grasp on people's true intentions, though he knows deep down when he's being given bad advice, and just needs someone to confirm it. This is why he respects Davos and Jon so much, because they are both characters who'll dissemble out of pure necessity and not simply to further their own ends.

I think he sees himself in Jon - both the younger brothers of great warriors who conquered their throne - but he trusts Davos because they are similar men of duty. On the show, he trusts Davos over Melisandre in a way he didn't seem to do on the books. And that makes for a richer plot IMO.

It also helps that his daughter seemed to love Davos like a second father on the show.

[Areo Speedwagon]

Im not sure Stannis is a villain.... but he is definitely not a hero. (for the most part.... and i understand he is in other POVs) We pretty much only see him through the mind of Davos, who, despite all the abuse, reveres and respects him. That taints the narrative because the reader is constantly reminded how noble an fair and honorable King Stannis is. The show, being told from a third person POV, is free from Davos' opinions and we get to see Stannis for who he is. His intentions are good enough, but they are horribly twisted by the Red Religion....

(as a side, and a totally different topic.... Doesnt Tyrion observe the High Red Priest in Volantis preaching that Dany is AA?.... does this mean Mel is in disagreement with her church? hasnt gotten the memo... am i totally off?)

Stannis does villainous things (Renly, potentially Gendric....kinslaying) but does it for the "better good"..... that is, "better good" defined as him being the savior of mankind, which he so clearly is not.

This. This is great.

More along those lines, it seems that many showStannis detractors are using their full knowledge of where Stannis is at the end of book 5 to color their perception of his portrayal now. Someone mentioned it earlier in the thread but I think it bears repeating. And that's not to say I don't think there are faults with showStannis. I, too, would like him to be more skeptical of Mel and her religion. But really, other than that, I don't really see that much of a difference because, in the books, as ser benjamin pointed out, the shadiest things he does are told through Davos' POV and are colored by his emotions toward him.

Going along with the visual cues, one huge one that I noticed was when Stannis went to talk with Davos in his cell. Watch it again. They film Davos from outside the cell and they film Stannis from inside the cell so that both men are behind bars when they speak. This, to me, visually showed that Stannis is as much trapped by his thoughts/desires/doubts in his mind as Davos is trapped physically. A really well directed scene.

[LilJonUmber]

I love book Stannis, and think that his "character assassination" in the show version is way overblown.

Yeah, he looks like a chump this season. That's how I pictured him when I read ASOS. After his defeat at Blackwater, he's broken, dejected. He was so certain that he'd be sitting the Iron Throne and that was ripped away from him. Naturally, in the aftermath, he's dealing with depression, doubt, and guilt over murdering his brother for nothing.

When Davos gives him a new purpose, that's how Stannis got his groove back.

I expect him to be the character we came to know and respect in the books after he washes away the bitter memory of his defeat with a victory at the Wall.

[zaphodbrx]

This. This is great.

More along those lines, it seems that many showStannis detractors are using their full knowledge of where Stannis is at the end of book 5 to color their perception of his portrayal now.

Not at all. You just have to read A Storm of Swords and compare events directly, and it's just so different.

Stannis doesn't really change from Book 3 to Book 5. He's still the same person, character wise. If the show runners are trying to make a 'redemption arc' for him, that is fail. Stannis != Jamie.

Going along with the visual cues, one huge one that I noticed was when Stannis went to talk with Davos in his cell. Watch it again. They film Davos from outside the cell and they film Stannis from inside the cell so that both men are behind bars when they speak. This, to me, visually showed that Stannis is as much trapped by his thoughts/desires/doubts in his mind as Davos is trapped physically. A really well directed scene.

Yes, Episode 8 was fairly good in depicting Stannis.

Ep. 10 though? Butchery.