Harrenhal: "the Seat of Kings"

[Napyura]

I think you guys are really biasing KL over Harrenhall on basis of commerce.

Yes, KL is a port, but look at this way, KL's has an ease of Eastern Side commerce, but a lot of things that come from West either has to go on road or half a continent away. Harrenhall is almost the real center of Westeros, and every road leads there almost. Its in ideal spot. Yeah a big cargo has to go on ships and it pay offs easily, but ports aren't far away from Harrenhall, it has Bay of Crabs in proximity and KL and Gulltown, but its a lot closer landwise to North and Westerlands, whilst being on similar distance to Reach. It would've been a beating heart and even bigger swarm place than KL's due to overall proximity.

[The Mother of The Others]

For the rebuilding, if Bran is to be a throwback to Brandon Builder, and if the Wall is down & done for story reasons, then Harrenhal may be where Bran gets his start as a lead engineer. Fanciful, yea. Fun too. This would mollify those who want him to do something more meaningful in human terms than grow moss.

[butterbumps!]

wasn't this already the dream that went up in smoke? Harren has always been our chance to wonder what could have been. ...Inappropriate sports metaphor! -- Harrenhal was looking ascendant, like an inevitable powerhouse in the making who was about to force the world to adapt to its presence. Like how the Patriots were about to go undefeated a few years back. Then an unlikely thing comes along and beats them in the superbowl. The Giants--or the Dragons, in this case. Very unlikely that dragons would come along to beat a brand new castle that was ready to beat anything else except dragons. You get the feeling that this was an invisible turning point in history, when things were about to go in a totally different direction.

also I like the idea of Harrenhal becoming central again. I was picturing Baelish having something to do with the accomplishing of this impossible task, but for those who begrudge Petyr such things, an alternate way of bringing it about is to have the castle be the natural rallying point of mankind during the fight against the Others. So that by the time we survive that struggle, the map will have been rewritten and Harrenhal will simply be the northern center of human activity from then on.

eh, sort of. I mean, for Harren it was about taking this strategic seat for himself and conquering everything around it in time. I was coming from the premise of something more collaborative choosing that as a power seat, if that makes sense.

But what you suggest is something I'm keen on too-- "natural rallying point" as such, possibly becoming one of the Warden seats or other centers afterwards (if not the main capital, I mean-- to this end, I also think Mladen's suggestion of split centers also works). I mean, there's something to Harrenhal's odd history (the first peaceful overthrow of power was supposed to be planned there during the Tourney years ago) and the fact it's adjacent to what seems to be a stronghold of the old gods.

But there's definitely something curious about this place. As J.Star mentioned, there's a potential suggestion connecting Jon with "Harren the Black", and I'd add, Harren's brother was LC of the NW when Aegon conquered. There's also the tale Arya remembers of Old Nan's that might be relevant here (Arya likens Harrenhal to a castle for "giants" a couple of times):

She remembered a story Old Nan had told once, about a man imprisoned in a dark castle by evil giants. He was very brave and smart and he tricked the giants and escaped . . . but no sooner was he outside the castle than the Others took him, and drank his hot red blood. Now she knew how he must have felt.

I'm in no way suggesting that the original story pertains to Harrenhal even remotely, but I find this interesting given that this castle is likened to giants and connects to winter.

[J. Stargaryen]

<snip>

But there's definitely something curious about this place. As J.Star mentioned, there's a potential suggestion connecting Jon with "Harren the Black", and I'd add, Harren's brother was LC of the NW when Aegon conquered. There's also the tale Arya remembers of Old Nan's that might be relevant here (Arya likens Harrenhal to a castle for "giants" a couple of times):

<snip>

I'd forgotten that. Nice.

[Winterfellian]

One of the advantages I was thinking is that if the seat of power moved to this more fertile region, things like food stores might be better protected than has been the case previously. Whenever a region goes to war, it's always the place that gets razed and burned, since all armies have to pass through it given the centrality. I think putting a larger authority there might staunch that impulse somewhat. At the very least, the throne would have to take an active role in actually keeping the peace there, which in turn would conceivably prevent shortages, especially in terms of administering for the long winters. KL is just so dependent on other regions for sustenance by contrast.

This is one of my main qualms with your theory. I don't necessarily see how a major seat of power will help protect the crops and harvests better. To the contrary. A major seat of power is more likely to attract the attack of enemies, because of all they represent. Just look at the attacks at KG and WF. Those who lead their armies there did it because they recognized that striking there was to strike a blow to the heart of power of the respective ruling families therefore undermining their rule. For a person or army set on war with a ruling monarchy is a must to attack the seat of power of the opponent. Renly, Stannis, Robert and Ned all recognized this. With the capital there the risk of an attack increase rather than decrease and the centralized location with access to all the roads across the realm, that you mentioned in the OP will become a double-edged weapon in case of an attack.

The way I see it the perpetual danger of the Riverlands during times of war is the complete lack of natural and man built defenses surrounding them, not the lack of a centralized seat of power. After all, there's Riverrun. Assuming they manage to find the coin to somehow restore Harrenhal (and in my case these is a big assumption :worried: as I'll explain later) will there be money left to built defenses to safeguard the area? This will be necessary because, like I said, a major seat of power is more likely to attract attacks rather than dissuade them.

As for the money, we all know the state of the coffers at KG. Restoring Harrenhal and building defenses would take tremendous resources and it will definitely won't be enough when talking about harvest protection. The transfer of the capital to the interior will create a major population influx in the area and money will be needed to make sure they are accommodated properly. That is to say that in an land so important due to its fertility and richness of its soil a ruler can't afford another KG. Money will have to be put in from the beginning to ensure that the growing population won't contaminate the soils and the water by growing in a unregulated fashion or else the crops and even the overall fertility of the land will suffer from this. Some sort of urban planning will have to be ensure from the start. Will they have the coin, or even yet, the proper mind to recognize and address all of these problems?

About taking an active role, am all for that. But I think this can be accomplished without necessarily moving the IT there. Perhaps the upcoming large scale famine will teach them something about the importance of harvests :dunno:

[butterbumps!]

snip

I agree that having the realms major seat of power in a fertile region could invite destruction-- that it's a double edged sword, as you say. I'm not trying to proffer Harrenhal as economically more feasible than KL or suggest that it is entirely more advantageous from every angle. There are advantages and disadvantages to both locations and geographic context. Locating the major seat of power there isn't too ludicrous (and the Riverlands always get burned no matter who's fighting, so I'm not sure this would make it that much more of a magnet, and I actually think the opposite would be true in terms of intra-national conflict).

There's a number of seats of power in really bizarre locations and structures (Storm's End, Dragonstone, the Eyrie, landlocked Winterfell, portless Sunspear, the Wall), that each have advantages and some major disadvantages, so I don't think the thought of Harrenhal is outrageous or anything from a pragmatic standpoint. Not that Harren is a pillar of good sense, but I think he was intending to make a nexus of power from this location when he built it, so at least in-story it seems to be a desirable location for power by being so central.

What I'm trying to figure out is this: starting from the premise that Harrenhal is not preposterous as a capital or at least some kind of rallying point, what could be its significance given its odd history and connection to power changes, that it's repeated called the "seat of kings" even though a king hasn't sat there, that it's situated next to this nexus where a huge peace Pact was signed and seems to be an old gods stronghold, that it has the sense of being a crossroads of sorts in the realm, and a bunch of major characters come through there (different roads to the same castle?).

So I'm really trying to figure out what's going on with Harrenhal more from a literary point of view. I don't think it has to be the ideal paragon of good regional planning and capital choice for Martin to use it as some kind of unification point.

[The Mother of The Others]

Rheagar's PTWP worries drew him to this place, and whatever version of PTWP we eventually get may well make use of the place as the godsend it is when the time comes. Then some Children may crawl out of a hole in the woodwork to give their blessing to the thing. Of course one hopes for a lost city to explore at the bottom of the stonehenge lake, but there may not be time for that.

If Winterfell isn't coming back (its banners decimated beyond repair by what's on its way), this becomes the new northern seat, relocated to where it makes sense to rule the diminished realm from. Or, there will still be men north of here, but it'll now be the free nation of free folk who require no lord anymore. This may be part of the final peace settlement between the parties after they've worked together against the wights.

Also, I enjoyed a butterball turkey today, just in the interest of full disclosure. The bonelessness made it very flubbery indeed. Dad has always been a bit of a turkey himself, so it was the best way of honoring him. Or turning him into a cannibal, if one chose to take the analogy too far.

[butterbumps!]

Also, I enjoyed a butterball turkey today, just in the interest of full disclosure. The bonelessness made it very flubbery indeed. Dad has always been a bit of a turkey himself, so it was the best way of honoring him. Or turning him into a cannibal, if one chose to take the analogy too far.

well, you did the right thing by telling me. I always found that brand's name very misleading given the dearth of churned milk product to be found in their inventory. I guess this could be remedied by turning said inventory into chicken kiev (which, incidentally, uses a type of flavored butter, so it pains me to say that your genius plan to invent flavored butters is already thing, but I didn't have the heart to tell you before, but it's better you hear this from me than some other jerk).

But more on topic, I think the place Rhaegar was obsessed with was Summerhall rather than Harren's place.

[Winterfellian]

What I'm trying to figure out is this: starting from the premise that Harrenhal is not preposterous as a capital or at least some kind of rallying point, what could be its significance given its odd history and connection to power changes, that it's repeated called the "seat of kings" even though a king hasn't sat there, that it's situated next to this nexus where a huge peace Pact was signed and seems to be an old gods stronghold, that it has the sense of being a crossroads of sorts in the realm, and a bunch of major characters come through there (different roads to the same castle?).

So I'm really trying to figure out what's going on with Harrenhal more from a literary point of view. I don't think it has to be the ideal paragon of good regional planning and capital choice for Martin to use it as some kind of unification point.

Ok you got me with the bold part ^_^

I confess am a bit prejudiced against Harrenhal but I have a hard time seeing it as a future seat for government. Trying to see it from a literary point of view, when it was built it was meant to be a symbol not only of power but of oppression. I feel that with everything that’s happened or is impend to happen in Westeros, change is imminent, maybe even for good. Harrenhal is highly associated with the of the Old Ways (both at its height and its decline) and by the time the story culminates I have a feeling now contemporary approach of things will by then become another form of Old Ways and will then be obsolete to face the future. They are proving obsolete even now. I feel that the castle stands in a crossroads between eras, but only attest to the worst of each. It marks the savagery and violence of the pre conquest period, the indifference of the Dragon Kings for what belongs to the past (such as the Wall) and the wanton brutality following the beginning of the WOT5K. All in all is a symbol of the worst of the past, not the future. I don't mean to say that everything will be rose colored by the time Dream of Spring closes, but that some changes are already set in motion and are completely irreversible, like Dany's campaign in Essos.

Furthermore, the title a Dream of Spring suggests hope and new begginnigs, something I don't associate wih Harrenhal.

The seat of Kings imagery is certainly appealing, but my interpretation is that as a seat is meant to represent the ruler, his methods and the means through which he carved his empire and that's the reason no King ever sat on it. As I said before Harrenhal stands fot the Old Ways, which were proven obsolete once Aegon started his invasion and the IT was built as another symbol of oppresion (the swords) fused together with that with which Aegon carved his empire- dragon fire. In a way the IT is as impractical and grotesque a seat like Harrenhal is as impractical and grotesque a castle.

[Perfidious Algernon]

On top of that, King's Landing is very central within the Crownlands, and Harrenhal is clearly not. Moving the capital would mean an entire re-structuring of the Royal Demesne. Doable, but very difficult.

:agree:

This would be the biggest problem, I think. You'd royally piss off the LPs you took land and vassals from, and who's to say your new bannermen arn't still more loyal to their old lieges? I suppose you could try just claiming the whole of the Riverlands as the new Crownlands, now that the Tullies are out of power. Actually as I write that I become increasingly convinced it could work...

[ShadowCat Rivers]

Harrenhal is important.

The Iron Throne and the Red Keep are a symbol of power and authority, but I believe that before the end, it will be a symbol of a power of destruction and of an authority that has failed.

If the realm is to stay united there will be the need for a new pact, for a re-establishment of the realm in new basis. Harrenhal, as the most "neutral" castle - without deep historical connection to any of the "big" families - would be the most suitable place. It also ties symbolically with the other pact that was signed in its proximity.

[History of Westeros]

:agree:

This would be the biggest problem, I think. You'd royally piss off the LPs you took land and vassals from, and who's to say your new bannermen arn't still more loyal to their old lieges? I suppose you could try just claiming the whole of the Riverlands as the new Crownlands, now that the Tullies are out of power. Actually as I write that I become increasingly convinced it could work...

A decent point, yeah... Politically it wouldn't be too hard to spin getting rid of the Freys and Littlefinger, and they are #2 and #1 title-wise on the totem pole. For now.

[thunder_chicken]

There's still one Tully around who would fit right in a cursed ruin of a castle. Littlefinger may have to evict his childhood sweetheart before he can be the true master of Harrenhall.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

I rather like this idea, it has happened before in the UK York was also the capital once.

[Perfidious Algernon]

A decent point, yeah... Politically it wouldn't be too hard to spin getting rid of the Freys and Littlefinger, and they are #2 and #1 title-wise on the totem pole. For now.

Yeah I'm sorta expecting both of them to be out of play by the end of the series anyway. Sansa has a giant to slay and Cat has a wedding to crash. That'd leave leadership of the Riverlands wide open if the Blackfish doesn't make a play.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Super interesting post and it wouldn't surprise me if Harrenhal eventually popped up as something incredibly important. The "hall of kings" thing is also intriguing given that, as you said, no kings ever actually ruled from it. I'll also point out that, apart from the examples you gave, it is also pretty central to the R+L=J storyline — it's where they met, where Rhaegar crowned Lyanna and, according to some theories, from where they eloped (and many people view the Isle of Faces as a possible wedding site). So it is also of prime importance in that context, in addition to the ones you listed.

I've always seen it as a microcosm of Westeros — left to fall to ruin, too large to maintain and control, run by corrupt, awful people more often than not.

[kiasyd]

This reminded me of the book that Roose burns at Harrenhal... I know this was discussed a few times already, but I still wonder to this day about it's significance. Also, Harrenhal is the place where (probably) Roose decided to defect - an important turning point in his career and the story itself.

[History of Westeros]

From a strategical viewpoint, I'm not sure I see where the detractions are coming from. Harrenhal is said to be ruinous for a single lord, yes. But a king of a unified continent isn't exactly a single lord. A king of a unified Westeros would be receiving taxes from all realms, instead of just from the small area of under vassals in the Riverlands. The Lord Paramount in the Riverlands resided at Riverrun for nearly 300 years. He received what Harrenhal would have received had the castle remained a central seat of power after Aegon's dragon burned the house down. No one has ever even seen what could have been because the assumed tax support was shifted right after it was completed.

Excellent point about the taxes. In general I'm not on board with "it'll cost too much" arguments because those can be overcome with efficiency and skilled adminstration, an extended time of peace, etc.

The issue of Harrenhal being landlocked isn't really an issue at all. It sits on the banks of the God's Eye, a rather large lake that feeds a river heading into the Blackwater. Also, when you have places like the Eyrie (not even accessible for half of a seasonal pattern), Winterfell (landlocked), Casterly Rock (on top of a damn mountain) or Storm's End (on the banks of Shipbreaker's Bay which doesn't necessarily excite merchants), I don't see the problem with Harrenhal.

This I maintain some disagreement on. It's improper to look at the success of a landlocked seat within one kingdom and arrive at the conclusion that this success could translate to the entire kingdom. (also you're off on Casterly Rock, yes it's on top of a mountain but that mountain overlooks Lannisport. They are basically connected.)

If ships can navigate from Blackwater Bay up the river to the God's Eye then a huge problem is negated. I think you're probably right, but I won't assume. Perhaps we can find the answer in the text somewhere. On the map, the river looks wide enough, but that's still not certain.

[History of Westeros]

Thinking about it more, God's Eye almost certainly does allow sea access indirectly. If it didn't, the placement is pretty silly considering the nearby options that *would* give sea access, and while he probably didn't live like most Ironborn before him, Harren was likely well aware of this angle.

[GCabot]

We moved the capital from NYC to Philly to DC. It can be done.

Eh, we're basically talking about moving a couple of hundred miles down the Eastern Seaboard. In terms of scope, this is nothing. Logistically speaking, a move from KL to Harrenhall would be more akin to moving the U.S. government from D.C. to Kansas City - a far more difficult task.