Active and passive characters

[~No One~]

There are countless Sansa, Stannis, and Littlefinger threads detailing their relative positions as players or pieces, but I thought it might be nice to have a collection of everyone's opinions on which (still living) characters truly have their own destiny firmly in their own hands.

By active, I mean to say that the character is controlling what happens to them, including how they react to unexpected events. They are the players. I believe those characters include:

Littlefinger - whether he has planned everything or not, he is not at anyone's mercy at the moment.

Arya - she chose to go to Braavos, and constantly chooses to stay at the HoBaW.

Wyman Manderly - arguably the most active of all the characters currently in control of their situations. He's no one's pawn.

Varys - although I'm not sure what to make of him, he doesn't seem to have anyone pulling his strings

Dany - for better or for worse, she's doing what she wants, and screw everyone else. And screw Westeros, apparently.

Doran - he's a mastermind!

By passive, I mean to say that the character is dependent (whether they know it or not) on others when events arise. Things happen *to* them, instead of them reacting *to* things happening. They are the pieces. I believe such characters include:

Sansa - although I hope this is changing! *fingers crossed*

Sam - I hope he becomes a player too!

Stannis - doing what Mel wants/tells him to, and aiming for the crown since he *thinks* he should, even if it's not what he wants

Jon Snow - made a double-agent with the wildlings by Quorin, then LC by Sam

Cersei - nothing seems to be in her control! ha!

Margaery - is having her world crumble around her

Arianne - doing her father's bidding

JonCon - was told by Varys + Illyrio that some kid was really Aegon

Tyrion - he was jailed by Cat, made then un-made Hand by his father, saved by Jamie and Varys, sent forth by Illyrio, etc.

Victarion - Euron's piece on the board, despite what Vic may think

Theon - 'nuff said

Asha - although trying to make the best of her situation, I think she's in Stannis' iron grip

Davos - poor guy.

Brienne - she seems to continually make herself a piece to be used by other players :(

I'm unsure of Melisandre, Bran, and Jamie. I've put each of them in both categories for various reasons. So I took them out.

Thoughts?

[Mrs.Grumpy]

Where's Olenna ?

[Mladen]

There is a big gap between being active and being player, and being passive and being pawn. Further more, there is also huge difference inside group of characters you call active, and in those you call passive. Basically, we don`t see any criteria here.

[Leif]

A piece, in my opinion, is a person who's being manipulated and doesn't know it. I think it's silly to say someone's a piece if they're forced to do something despite not wanting to. Tyrion being captured, thrown in jail, saved, etc doesn't really make him a piece, he's just not capable of physically defending himself like certain other characters. A lot of these instances are 'do this for me or die' situations. And not being controlled by someone doesn't necessarily make you a player. Arya's not playing the game, despite being free.

[Theda Baratheon]

Roose would comfortably sit within the first list, surely.

[~No One~]

A piece, in my opinion, is a person who's being manipulated and doesn't know it. I think it's silly to say someone's a piece if they're forced to do something despite not wanting to. Tyrion being captured, thrown in jail, saved, etc doesn't really make him a piece, he's just not capable of physically defending himself like certain other characters. A lot of these instances are 'do this for me or die' situations. And not being controlled by someone doesn't necessarily make you a player. Arya's not playing the game, despite being free.

Sure. I knew putting him there would be controversial. But it seems like he is a piece since he doesn't really have control over what happens to him, as opposed to Tywin, for example, who made things happen.

Yes, Arya is outside of the reach of Westeros, but in spite of not being connected to others at the moment, she did choose to leave of her own free will.

[Jordouche]

Arya is not a "player" either... If she does become a rogue faceless man, then I'll say she is.

Until then, she is hardly a player...

[Sullen]

You forgot the High Sparrow in the Active category.

[~No One~]

There is a big gap between being active and being player, and being passive and being pawn. Further more, there is also huge difference inside group of characters you call active, and in those you call passive. Basically, we don`t see any criteria here.

Well, I defined what I meant, so that was my criteria. if you disagree, maybe suggest something? *Constructive* criticism is always appreciated. I was just using the synonyms of players and pieces that Littlefinger uses in the story.

And yes, there is clearly a middle group; we are, after all, talking about 'grey' characters! Hence why I couldn't decide on Bran, Jamie, or Mel.

[Mladen]

Well, I defined what I meant, so that was my criteria. if you disagree, maybe suggest something? *Constructive* criticism is always appreciated. I was just using the synonyms of players and pieces that Littlefinger uses in the story.

And yes, there is clearly a middle group; we are, after all, talking about 'grey' characters! Hence why I couldn't decide on Bran, Jamie, or Mel.

No, you divided characters based on 2,3 events and you haven`t seen the big picture. Arya, for instance isn`t a player, and she was passive in some instances throughout ASOIAF, There were times when she felt powerless as Sansa. Also, Jon, Davos, Tyrion, Stannis, Victarion, Tyrion, Margaery, Arianne, you got them all wrong... Your criteria is logically flawed because you haven`t cleared out what you want to say. And I constructively told you where you made mistake, but obviously you disregarded it...

[Leif]

Sure. I knew putting him there would be controversial. But it seems like he is a piece since he doesn't really have control over what happens to him, as opposed to Tywin, for example, who made things happen.

Yes, Arya is outside of the reach of Westeros, but in spite of not being connected to others at the moment, she did choose to leave of her own free will.

I always saw Tyrion as a player, not a piece (at least at this point in time). Tywin pretty much put the fate of KL in his son's hands, even if for a short while. He pretty much did as he pleased in the city, until his father took over. I guess you could make a case for Tyrion being one of LF's pieces, but that's kinda unfair seeing as how LF didn't really have any plans for the dwarf, he just happened to aid Petyr's plan.

Well, a lot of people chose to do things of their own free will. Everyone's gonna use someone and be used at one point in their lives, some more than others. But IMO, you don't become a player or a pawn until you enter the game, willingly or otherwise.

[~No One~]

No, you divided characters based on 2,3 events and you haven`t seen the big picture. Arya, for instance isn`t a player, and she was passive in some instances throughout ASOIAF, There were times when she felt powerless as Sansa. Also, Jon, Davos, Tyrion, Stannis, Victarion, Tyrion, Margaery, Arianne, you got them all wrong... Your criteria is logically flawed because you haven`t cleared out what you want to say. And I constructively told you where you made mistake, but obviously you disregarded it...

Well, considering it's my opinion, I'm not sure I can be wrong :)

But, I'll bite. Why are all those characters actively in charge of what happens to them? looking at the overall picture of course. Proof, please.

[Mladen]

Well, considering it's my opinion, I'm not sure I can be wrong :)

But, I'll bite. Why are all those characters actively in charge of what happens to them? looking at the overall picture of course. Proof, please.

1. Jon is pretty active to what`s happening aound him. He chose to stay at the Wall, and to return when he got the chance. He proved to be capable leader and man who can control NW. He even juggled between Stannis, wildings and NW. And `Edd, fetch me a block` is the most pro-active act in ASOIAF.

2. Davos is the type of man who serves the King he believes in and loves. It`s not passive, Davos is pretty much active man who makes his own decisions and sticks to them.

3. Margery showed great deal of smartness when she influenced Tommen to resist Cersei

4. Although, not sharpest knife in the set, Arianne was pretty much active in the plotting to crown Myrcella

5. Stannis is as active as any King. He is commander, ruler, capable fighter. Stannis is under influence of Melisandre, but to say she controls him completely is wrong.

6. If Tyrion is passive, I don`t know who is active...

7. Victarion has everything to finish off with Euron, and no matter what you believe, Euron did nothing to be considered as player

All in all, each of the characters from this list had active role in what happened to them. From Tyrion`s kinslaying, to Vic saving Moqorro, Jon fighting the wildings and etc. these characters proved to be proactive about their lives. And how you consider them passive os truly beyond comprehension.

[juanml82]

Active/Passive doesn't have to mean Player/Pawn. Arya, for instance, is mostly an active character, but she's not even on the board.

And some things aren't so black and white. Characters will have events beyond their control happening to them, and active characters will also create events of their own. Jon, for instance, follows orders to infiltrate the wildlings and to defend the Wall. Then he chooses to become LC instead of Lord of Winterfell and make the decision to let the wildlings through, which means he is an active character. And, by aiding Stannis and Alysanne Mormont, he's also becoming a Player.

[~No One~]

^ Well, I agree with this, yes. I didn't think about the fact that Jon chose not to become Lord of Winterfell. He totally controlled that situation. And he did remain loyal to the NW throughout his infiltration...

[~No One~]

And some things aren't so black and white.

No, we're definitely talking about grey characters. This is GRRM, after all.

[greensleeves]

By active, I mean to say that the character is controlling what happens to them, including how they react to unexpected events. They are the players. I believe those characters include:

....

By passive, I mean to say that the character is dependent (whether they know it or not) on others when events arise. Things happen *to* them, instead of them reacting *to* things happening. They are the pieces. I believe such characters include:

I think there are some problems here. An initial thought:

Arya - she chose to go to Braavos, and constantly chooses to stay at the HoBaW.

If you count choosing to stay at HoBaW as a 'decision' then why not Sansa's decision to go along with Littlefinger or to escape with Dontos? What's the difference?

Throughout most of the novels both Sansa and Arya are victimized... Victims don't have control of what happens to them. That's why they are victims. This makes all victims 'passive' by your definition.

[nirolo]

If you count choosing to stay at HoBaW as a 'decision' then why not Sansa's decision to go along with Littlefinger or to escape with Dontos? What's the difference?

The moment Sansa "decided" to go with Dontos:

Quote 1:

He grabbed her hand and pulled at her. “This way, we must away, quickly now, have no fear.”

Sansa followed unresisting.

-- ASoS, Ch. 61

To me, unresisting is the very definition of being passive. I have a feeling we are likely to disagree on this.

Then the moment Sansa "decided" to go with Littlefinger:

Quote 2:

“Do you perchance recall what I said to you that day your father sat the Iron Throne?”

The moment came back to her vividly. “You told me that life was not a song. That I would learn that one day, to my sorrow.” She felt tears in her eyes, but whether she wept for Ser Dontos Hollard, for Joff, for Tyrion, or for herself, Sansa could not say. “Is it all lies, forever and ever, everyone and everything?”

“Almost everyone. Save you and I, of course.” He smiled. “Come to the godswood tonight if you want to go home.”

“The note... it was you?”

“It had to be the godswood. No other place in the Red Keep is safe from the eunuch’s little birds... or little rats, as I call them. There are trees in the godswood instead of walls. Sky above instead of ceiling. Roots and dirt and rock in place of floor. The rats have no place to scurry. Rats need to hide, lest men skewer them with swords.” Lord Petyr took her arm. “Let me show you to your cabin. You have had a long and trying day, I know. You must be weary.”

Already the little boat was no more than a swirl of smoke and fire behind them, almost lost in the immensity of the dawn sea. There was no going back; her only road was forward. “Very weary,” she admitted.

-- ASoS, Ch. 61

Again, I don't see much agency in Sansa's actions. How could she be active when the choice to choose is taken away from her?

@ OP

I have never considered Tyrion to be passive, so I don't necessarily agree with your categorization of him -- to take away Tyrion's agency in some of his decisions would, to me, strip away some of his complexities. Yes, you have listed numerous instances that blindsided Tyrion, but we see him actively trying to improve each situation and thus leaving his own mark in just about every instance.

For example, spending a few nights in a sky cell is unlikely Tyrion's ideal vacation destination, but we see him not only escaping death, twice, but coming out ahead with Bronn and a band of cutthroat warriors. Tyrion doesn't always come out ahead each time, but I believe the very same aforementioned characterization characterizes most if no all of the major events in Tyrion's life.

Of course, because Tyrion (along with all the other characters) is constantly having unexpected situations visited upon them, I think we should judge his level of passivity by how he reacted under these situation, rather than whether he has any control over the happening of these events.

Very interesting thread.

[Mladen]

Again, I don't see much agency in Sansa's actions. How could she be active when the choice to choose is taken away from her?

But all of that began when she chose to go to the Godswood and meet with Dontos. That was her choice and it shpos her agency - to run away from KL.

I agree about Tyrion... I never thought of him as passive or pawn, and I don`t know how OP sees him as one.

[nirolo]

But all of that began when she chose to go to the Godswood and meet with Dontos. That was her choice and it shpos her agency - to run away from KL.

This is true. Sansa is indeed motivated by her desire to escape and does actively choose to pursue the note (from Littlefinger). Though I might disagree about her being active from that point on.

I see as Sansa's chief strength her ability to endure. I'm not sure if that is the same as being active, though. Just my opinion, of course.

I agree about Tyrion... I never thought of him as passive or pawn, and I don`t know how OP sees him as one.

Is this the first time we agree with each other, Mladen? :P