Valyrian Swords and Valyrian Blood

[History of Westeros]

Although it's not clearly stated, this passage makes it sound like the sword was forged for the Starks. We're given the age of the sword and the time of its forging (right before the Doom, no less!) and nothing is mentioned of the sword having another owner. If the Starks have possessed the sword for four hundred years, it seems more likely that it was made for them, and not received from the Targaryens as a reward.

I don't agree that the passage makes it sound as if the sword was forged for the Starks. I admit there is pretty much no evidence for it being a reward either, but the Starks are relatively poor in terms of coin, which leads me to believe it was a gift. From there it's safe enough to assume the Targaryens were the source. I would not bet heavily on it, but I enjoy guessing and this is my guess :)

The name of the sword doesn't sway me because renaming a sword is no big deal. Especially given the fact that other Stark swords bore the name in the past, which I think we can both agree is indicated pretty strongly in the quote.

[History of Westeros]

I disagree with the theories that the Targaryens are the ones who handed out all the Valyrian Steel blades in Westeros.

Westeros and Essos did not exist in isolation from each other until Aegon invaded. All along the Narrow Sea there has constatnly been trade between the continents, the Stormlands were so connected to the Free Cities that Argilac got involved in the war against Volantis. We know that the Lannisters had possession of Brightroar at least a hundred years before the Targs invaded, because King Tommen had already gone missing with it by the time Aegon set foot on Westeros.

That we are told Ice is at least 400 years old, would imply that the Starks had it before the Targaryen arrival.

Which isn't to say that the Starks or Lannisters were trading directly with Valyria or the Free Cities. Valyrian/Essosi goods most likely entered Westeros through the Stormlands, Dorne or the Crownland regions and then through various internal Wetsrosi trades made their way to the North and Westerlands.

For example the Romans didn't actually walk all the way along the Silk Road to trade goods with China (and vice versa). Rather, goods were gradually passed along the road from culture to cultre until they eventually reached the other end.

There is no implication that the Starks have held Ice for 400 years, only that the sword is that old. (400 can't be true because the Doom was ~412 years before aGoT so it's probably 450-500 years old. Since the sword was forged before the Doom). I doubt it heavily, but it's even possible that Ned is the first Lord Stark to wield it.

People have speculated at an Aenys I Stark marriage and it's possible Ice was a part of this somehow. Or a reward to King Torrhen for bending the knee. Or to keep the Starks in line during the wars with the Faith. Those are all pure guesses of course, but we know so little that all of them are possible.

On Brightroar, I agree this would not be one of the gifted ones (I didn't say all were gifted). I don't agree that it must've been acquired at least 100 years before Aegon invaded. All we know is that King Tommen both had it and lost it after the Doom. For all we know, Tommen was the first king of the Rock to hold it, and he sailed to Valyria very soon after the Doom, or a year or two before Aegon invaded. I suspect the Kings of the Rock acquired the blade from the Valyrians on Dragonstone before the Targs came. It could've come directly from Essos much earlier, that is clearly possible as well.

There is no reference to a Valyrian steel blade in Westeros being older than say, 500 years, and the Targs have been on Dragonstone for 400 years, and the Valyrians in general, 500... That lines up pretty well, doesn't it? So several came from the first Valyrians and many of the rest (perhaps all the rest) from the Targs. I lean towards the larger % coming from the Targs because they were a powerhouse family, whereas the other Valyrians on Dragonstone were described as merchants and traders, etc.

So to summarize, I'm going to guess that a small percentage, but maybe none, came before Dragonstone was settled. Since some of the swords clearly came to Westeros before the Targaryens came to Dragonstone, I maintain the Valyrians on Dragonstone are the most likely. After that, the Targaryens ruled Dragonstone so you'd think they'd have a say from that point on. They seemed to have taken it away from the other Valyrians, so they would've taken any Valyrian steel they found as well.

[Toccs]

On Brightroar, I agree this would not be one of the gifted ones (I didn't say all were gifted). I don't agree that it must've been acquired at least 100 years before Aegon invaded. All we know is that King Tommen both had it and lost it after the Doom. For all we know, Tommen was the first king of the Rock to hold it, and he sailed to Valyria very soon after the Doom, or a year or two before Aegon invaded. I suspect the Kings of the Rock acquired the blade from the Valyrians on Dragonstone before the Targs came. It could've come directly from Essos much earlier, that is clearly possible as well.

Valyrian Steell blades were scarce and costly, yet thousands remained in the world, perhaps two hundred in the Seven Kingdoms alone. It had always irked his father that none belonged to House Lannister. The old Kings of the Rock had owned such a weapon, but the greatsword Brightroar had been lost when the second King Tommen carried it back to Valyria on his fools quest.

The old Kings of the Rock.

[History of Westeros]

Valyrian Steell blades were scarce and costly, yet thousands remained in the world, perhaps two hundred in the Seven Kingdoms alone. It had always irked his father that none belonged to House Lannister. The old Kings of the Rock had owned such a weapon, but the greatsword Brightroar had been lost when the second King Tommen carried it back to Valyria on his fools quest.

The old Kings of the Rock.

Good catch, so Tommen II probably wasn't the first to wield it. Perhaps only one king prior to him had it, perhaps a large number. Hopefully WOIAF tells us!

I say "probably" because of things like this that are not so uncommon in the books:

Tywin - "Harrenhal was the seat of kings." (technically only one king ever sat in Harrenhal).

That said I am not disputing this, just adding more detail.

[intheswamp]

As for why we don't see more valyrian weapons: Some of these blades are probably in treasure troves, like the Celtigar's valyrian axe. Perhaps many families see them more as a precious heirloom or something to brag over than a weapon for combat. After all, as we have seen, taking a valyrian blade into combat or simply carrying it around can often lead to losing the blade (Red Rain, Ice, Brightroar). I think this makes Eddard returning Dawn to the Daynes all the more impressive and honorable (and yes, I know that Dawn isn't valyrian steel, it seems to be made of an even rarer material). Many others would have claimed the blade as the spoils of war.

Some of the past Lannisters may not have tried as hard as Tywin to buy a valyrian sword to replace Brightroar. Tytos doesn't strike me as the sort that would have cared.

[Toccs]

I say "probably" because of things like this that are not so uncommon in the books:

Tywin - "Harrenhal was the seat of kings." (technically only one king ever sat in Harrenhal).

Absolutely I acknowledge that. Although it is different context in both instances, Tywin talking in a descriptive sense "it was worthy of a king", and Tyrion talking more in a listing sense "these are the kings that owned this".

I accept the point though, without needing to actually go through the text and find a instance where the context does match (which I'm sure there is).

Hopefully WOIAF tells us!

Fortunately, I think this is one of the areas we can comfortably feel certain will be elaborated on in the worldbook :cheers: .

[darkordies]

Might Ice have been a consolation prize for the Starks when they bent the knee?

Impossible as Ice had been in the stark family for 400 years and the conquest was only 300 years ago

[protar]

Impossible as Ice had been in the stark family for 400 years and the conquest was only 300 years ago

That's never stated anywhere. All we know is that Ice itself is 400 years old which is also when the Targaryens arrived at Dragonstone. And as the Starks of old have no connection to the Targaryens or Valyria it doesn't really make sense for Ice to have been in their possession for the entirety of it's existence.

[ClashOfTheAsh]

spoilers From The Princess and the Queen. (cant get spoiler tags to work sorry)

Lord Roxton had a VS sword named Orphan-maker

Lord Hightower had a VS sword named Vigilence

"Ser Warrick Wheaton slashed a wing from Syrax with a Valyrian steel sword" an unknown kight siad to have killed a dragon with a VS sword.

On a side note Prince Daemon had Dark Sister which was lost in the gods eye for a few years after the he kiiled Aemond with it.

[Lord Ravenstark]

That's never stated anywhere. All we know is that Ice itself is 400 years old which is also when the Targaryens arrived at Dragonstone. And as the Starks of old have no connection to the Targaryens or Valyria it doesn't really make sense for Ice to have been in their possession for the entirety of it's existence.

That's never stated anywhere.

[protar]

That's never stated anywhere.

Fine - that we know of, they have no connection to Targaryens or Valyria prior to the conquest. The only fact we know here is that Ice is 400 years old.

We can't say for a fact that Ice was given to the Starks by the Targaryens, but considering it's creation was at the same time as the Targaryen's arrival at Dragonstone and considering that the Stark's peacefully acquiesced to Targaryen rule (with hints of a marriage) - it's not unreasonable to assume that. To me it's what makes the most sense: The Targaryens bought a VS sword with them to Dragonstone, gave it to the Starks after The Conquest and they named it Ice.

[slayer420]

I think you guys are missing a fact on this subject. That some blacksmiths can still reforge VS. Starks sword could have come from other swords that were captured in battle. I am sure VS was traded before the doom. So over time they got spread around this is were most of them came from and were not gifts. I don't think we have seen one example of Targs giving any other houses VS. We do see how one house gets one and it was from battle.

[strangejosh]

spoilers From The Princess and the Queen. (cant get spoiler tags to work sorry)

Lord Roxton had a VS sword named Orphan-maker

Lord Hightower had a VS sword named Vigilence

"Ser Warrick Wheaton slashed a wing from Syrax with a Valyrian steel sword" an unknown kight siad to have killed a dragon with a VS sword.

On a side note Prince Daemon had Dark Sister which was lost in the gods eye for a few years after the he kiiled Aemond with it.

Actually it's never stated that Roxton is a Lord. He is referred to as Ser Jon Roxton. He may have been the heir to House Roxton or maybe it's similar to Dawn where you have to just be worthy of it and not necessarily the heir.

[RumHam]

Actually it's never stated that Roxton is a Lord. He is referred to as Ser Jon Roxton. He may have been the heir to House Roxton or maybe it's similar to Dawn where you have to just be worthy of it and not necessarily the heir.

Another possibility is that a previous lord Roxton bequeathed the sword to his more martial son instead of his heir. Or pulled an Aenys Targaryen and willingly gave the sword to his brother. That lord could have then died, but the sword wouldn't return to his heirs until it's current bearer died. (see Lyn Corbray.) So Jon Roxton could be a younger brother, uncle or great uncle of Lord Roxton at the time of the story.

[The hairy bear]

Actually it's never stated that Roxton is a Lord. He is referred to as Ser Jon Roxton. He may have been the heir to House Roxton or maybe it's similar to Dawn where you have to just be worthy of it and not necessarily the heir.

Actually, while he's usually called Bold Jon Roxton and once Ser Jon Roxton, he's called Lord Jon Roxton just before he confronts Hammer: "But Lord Jon Roxton was already in the yard"

[History of Westeros]

I think you guys are missing a fact on this subject. That some blacksmiths can still reforge VS. Starks sword could have come from other swords that were captured in battle. I am sure VS was traded before the doom. So over time they got spread around this is were most of them came from and were not gifts. I don't think we have seen one example of Targs giving any other houses VS. We do see how one house gets one and it was from battle.

If LC Mormont can give Longclaw to Jon I don't think the Targs giving one to the Starks is a stretch. I agree that there's no real proof for this, but it seems to be a solid guess.

I think the "collect enough steel for a sword" could work in some cases, but I doubt that's the case with Ice because it's a greatsword. All the Stark lords are buried with longswords, so I think that's what they would've made if they had collected the metal themselves. Also, we know Ice was forged One of the reasons I like to guess that it's a gift is that the North is quite poor, relatively speaking.

In general on the subject of how long the Starks have held Ice:

The only things we know for sure is that they did not hold it ~400 years ago because it was new. After that, for all we know Ned is the first Stark to wield it. That would be odd, though acquiring it during Robert's Rebellion is slightly possible I suppose. Point is that there is no confirmation that I know of that shows Rickard or his predecessors wielding it. No reference to Artos picking it up when his brother fell vs. the Wildlings (and this would've been ~100 years ago at most).

As a tangent, it seems likely that Raymun Redbeard would claim Ice after slaying Lord Willam Stark if the Starks had it then. Especially likely since Willam was beheaded, which implies Raymun had a moment or more to spare. Artos could've reclaimed it in that scenario I suppose. It must be chivalry that keeps most of these swords in the hands of the same Houses for so long. If it were acceptable to just take them I think they would switch hands more often. I imagine ransoms being paid for them. But when non-knightly foes get a chance to take a VS sword I imagine they just take it, like the 2 held by Ironborn. Longclaw might be one that was won in battle and kept. Poor Bear Island purchasing a VS sword seems a bit ludicrous.

[protar]

If LC Mormont can give Longclaw to Jon I don't think the Targs giving one to the Starks is a stretch. I agree that there's no real proof for this, but it seems to be a solid guess.

I think the "collect enough steel for a sword" could work in some cases, but I doubt that's the case with Ice because it's a greatsword. All the Stark lords are buried with longswords, so I think that's what they would've made if they had collected the metal themselves. Also, we know Ice was forged One of the reasons I like to guess that it's a gift is that the North is quite poor, relatively speaking.

In general on the subject of how long the Starks have held Ice:

The only things we know for sure is that they did not hold it ~400 years ago because it was new. After that, for all we know Ned is the first Stark to wield it. That would be odd, though acquiring it during Robert's Rebellion is slightly possible I suppose. Point is that there is no confirmation that I know of that shows Rickard or his predecessors wielding it. No reference to Artos picking it up when his brother fell vs. the Wildlings (and this would've been ~100 years ago at most).

As a tangent, it seems likely that Raymun Redbeard would claim Ice after slaying Lord Willam Stark if the Starks had it then. Especially likely since Willam was beheaded, which implies Raymun had a moment or more to spare. Artos could've reclaimed it in that scenario I suppose. It must be chivalry that keeps most of these swords in the hands of the same Houses for so long. If it were acceptable to just take them I think they would switch hands more often. I imagine ransoms being paid for them. But when non-knightly foes get a chance to take a VS sword I imagine they just take it, like the 2 held by Ironborn. Longclaw might be one that was won in battle and kept. Poor Bear Island purchasing a VS sword seems a bit ludicrous.

I think if Ned had obtained it personally he would have mentioned that.

[Lord Ravenstark]

If LC Mormont can give Longclaw to Jon I don't think the Targs giving one to the Starks is a stretch. I agree that there's no real proof for this, but it seems to be a solid guess.

I think the "collect enough steel for a sword" could work in some cases, but I doubt that's the case with Ice because it's a greatsword. All the Stark lords are buried with longswords, so I think that's what they would've made if they had collected the metal themselves. Also, we know Ice was forged One of the reasons I like to guess that it's a gift is that the North is quite poor, relatively speaking.

In general on the subject of how long the Starks have held Ice:

The only things we know for sure is that they did not hold it ~400 years ago because it was new. After that, for all we know Ned is the first Stark to wield it. That would be odd, though acquiring it during Robert's Rebellion is slightly possible I suppose. Point is that there is no confirmation that I know of that shows Rickard or his predecessors wielding it. No reference to Artos picking it up when his brother fell vs. the Wildlings (and this would've been ~100 years ago at most).

As a tangent, it seems likely that Raymun Redbeard would claim Ice after slaying Lord Willam Stark if the Starks had it then. Especially likely since Willam was beheaded, which implies Raymun had a moment or more to spare. Artos could've reclaimed it in that scenario I suppose. It must be chivalry that keeps most of these swords in the hands of the same Houses for so long. If it were acceptable to just take them I think they would switch hands more often. I imagine ransoms being paid for them. But when non-knightly foes get a chance to take a VS sword I imagine they just take it, like the 2 held by Ironborn. Longclaw might be one that was won in battle and kept. Poor Bear Island purchasing a VS sword seems a bit ludicrous.

About Ned being the first wielder... don't know but I think many houses keep their Valyrian Steel swords in the treasury.

[Veltigar]

Personally, I believe that the best option for Ice and Longclaw, if they aren't gifts from the Targs lies with Rodrik Stark.

We know of two Rodrik's. One who won Bear Island and another who served with the Second Sons. These two could be the same person. Perhaps the Wandering Wolf won his sword in Essos and met the later lord Mormont there (or perhaps he went with them to Essos), who also won a VS sword in the wars there.

Rodrik then returned to the North, with his buddy proto-Mormont in tow. He became involved in that wrestling match and won Bear Island. He then gifted it to his buddy who then became Lord Mormont.

[History of Westeros]

The Wandering Wolf acquiring Ice during his time in Essos is a solid theory.