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Slayer of Lies

Septon Chayle is the Hooded Man in WF (Theon I Spoilers)

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I liked a lot the idea of Chayle surviving, I think it is possible. Many other connections are too stretched. Why would a septon start killing people?? he is like a priest, it doesn't make sense. Little Walder was killed by Big Walder, the others were killed by the spearwives, it's as simple as that. Benfred Tallhart is also dead, he is one of the most important men in the North, do you think we would just hear nothing about him? No, i doubt that, if he had survived he would have been probably taken to the Iron Islands as a slave/hostage. But even if I don't agree with most of the points made in the OP, the simple notion that Chayle is alive makes him a strong contender.

I never liked the ideas that the HM were Mance, Benjen, even Glover, both of them. Robett and Galbart are both extremely well known in the North, why would they risk something like that?? anyone could recognize them and it would be the end of them. I'm sure that Robett is near Winterfell with an army, but not inside. The thing that is almost decisive for this Chayle theory is that he was raised near the White Knife. If he survived, what would he do? he is not a fighting men, the little boys are thought dead, he would return home... in Manderly lands!! He's not any septon, he's a Northerner, raised on Manderly lands, so he's probabyl extremely faithful to the Starks. He would be willing to help the Starks in any way he could. This way we even have a way for him to enter Winterfell... he simply came with the Manderly men. He wears a cloak and dagger simply because he needed to pose as a soldier. The way he dresses can also explain why Theon doesn't recognize him. If you see someone dressed like a priest or a monk everyday and then he wears something completely different would you know him? Many wouldn't, but Theon's subconscious might.

(Smacks own head!) thanks for pointing me back to the map! Chayle swam to safety and either hid for a bit or made haste to Manderly, providing him with all info on what happened at Winterfell. He returns with Manderly's troops, knows the Winterfell layout and knows Arya is a fake!

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FWIW, Theon does wonder whether it was four or five swords in the TWOW preview chapter. While it's definitely excellent work by several of you to dig all these passages up, it's at least possible that there is still one unaccounted for sword.

Maddening as that is.

Quite right:

"The swords were gone. Four, I think, or five. I don't recall. The stone kings are angry."

Just vague enough to allow almost anything to be possible. The phrase "The stone kings are angry" is also interesting. Theon used the term before when he was in the crypts with Dustin:

He could feel the stone kings staring down at him with their stone eyes, stone fingers curled around the hilts of rusted longswords.

He talks about the Stone Kings the way he talks about the faces on a Heart Tree. Eyes watching him. Knowing him. And angry.

I wonder if Bran will be able to know what the Stone Kings knew and move through them or just move them...

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When you ask how anyone could know Theon is a kinslayer,based on knowledge of his activities with the Miller's wife,when Theon doesn't know it himself,nor is it common knowledge,I only see one possibility-it's a Septon who knows.

Reading through Brienne's travels with Meribald we learn that Septons hear confessions with complete confidentiality.So,assuming Chayle is Septon to the local area ,as well as Winterfell itself,might the Miller's wife have confessed that her second son is Theon's?

I'm not sure why I'm giving supporting material to a theory I disagree with.. :dunno:

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This OP was revised on 7/10/13 thanks to a collection of reader feedback and personal observations. The proposition that Septon Chayle is the Hooded Man generally remains unchanged, with the exception that this theory now absolves the HM of the murders in Winterfell.

Thank you all for your contributions!

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Absolving HM of the murders definitely boosts this theory. I don't think a septon would go around murdering people (well maybe Septon Utt but not a normal septon).

I still think Robett is most likely :)

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I think it's pretty clear that the first two murders, (Ryswell guy and Yellow Dick) were the washerwomen's work. They were probing for ways out of the castle and they got caught so they had to kill. In Yellow Dick's case, he probably tried to put his penis in one of them, and she put his penis in him.

Little Walder is the mystery.

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Either Big Walder or a partly Bran-influenced Theon are the logical suspects there. I always assumed Yellow Dick most likely lost his dick to the washerwoman, btw.

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The original passage, the meeting between the HM and Theon states Theon was oddly not afraid. This means the HM is someone he should have been afraid of... are there any past passages of Theon admitting his fear of someone imparticular. Was Theon afraid of Ned? Anyone else? I still think the HM is Blackfish, Benjen or possibly some unknown Stark bastard of Brandon. Maybe it's Howland Reed, I think Theon fears being poisoned like what happend to the other iron men, maybe... it's been a year since I read the 5th book.

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I always assumed that he wasn't afraid because, if the HM was not a figment of his own imagination, it was someone he expected might give him a mercy death. Theon is not afraid of dying, so long as he doesn't have to suffer any more. If the HM, as the OP puts it, is Chayle, he'd know that Bran and Rickon are still alive and that it was Ramsay who torched Winterfell when Theon's attempts to hold it intact and convert its people to his rule fell to the shitheap. If the HM can see he's already been tortured, why would Theon be afraid of someone he recognises who he'd expect to put him out his misery? So it could be anyone from a variety of suspects so long as they weren't confirmed definitively dead.

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This thinking always makes me wonder...why? :dunno:

Unreliable narrator is one thing, Theon killing people and having no idea, thus the reader having no idea is another entirely. Theres also nothing in the book that can be pointed to like with the Septon Chayle theory.

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Oh, I get you. But who said Theon/Reek is responsible for any of the killings? I don't believe he/they are. It just strikes me sometimes as people not liking the idea that it's Reek basically interacting with Theon in his own mind just because they don't like it. Then, if that's the case, it becomes more a situation of no longer being interested in reading Martin's story and being more interested in reading their own story :dunno:

And, of course, in the interest of full disclosure I do subscribe to the Theon Durden theory and always have since the first time I read the scene. I will be very surprised (but not disappointed - I'll still love the story no matter what happens) if we ever see or hear from the "Hooded Man" again.

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Oh, I get you. But who said Theon/Reek is responsible for any of the killings? I don't believe he/they are. It just strikes me sometimes as people not liking the idea that it's Reek basically interacting with Theon in his own mind just because they don't like it. Then, if that's the case, it becomes more a situation of no longer being interested in reading Martin's story and being more interested in reading their own story :dunno:

And, of course, in the interest of full disclosure I do subscribe to the Theon Durden theory and always have since the first time I read the scene. I will be very surprised (but not disappointed - I'll still love the story no matter what happens) if we ever see or hear from the "Hooded Man" again.

That's a bit unfair. I don't think the HM is Theon Durden, but not just because I don't like the idea. I think I'd be far more inclined to believe the theory if Theon's meeting the HM wasn't just a once-off encounter. Just because you do like it doesn't make it true, and so the accusation of people reading their own story instead of Martin's could be levelled at you too.

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That's a bit unfair. I don't think the HM is Theon Durden, but not just because I don't like the idea. I think I'd be far more inclined to believe the theory if Theon's meeting the HM wasn't just a once-off encounter. Just because you do like it doesn't make it true, and so the accusation of people reading their own story instead of Martin's could be levelled at you too.

Yes, I can see that viewpoint. But you're not getting exactly what I'm saying or maybe I'm not expressing it well. This is just my viewpoint but I've seen far too many people post that they just hate the idea of Theon Durden and that's that! And I never even came close to saying the Theon Durden theory is true. I'm the first to say it's a theory (to which I happen to subscribe). But, then again, practically everything is just a theory at this point ;)

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Yes, I can see that viewpoint. But you're not getting exactly what I'm saying or maybe I'm not expressing it well. This is just my viewpoint but I've seen far too many people post that they just hate the idea of Theon Durden and that's that! And I never even came close to saying the Theon Durden theory is true. I'm the first to say it's a theory (to which I happen to subscribe). But, then again, practically everything is just a theory at this point ;)

One thing I can perhaps point at leading away from the Theon Durden theory is that after his escape with Jeyne, he does not mention killing anyone in Winterfell to Asha, or to himself, and he does specifically say that he told her everything. When he thinks about the old gods knowing "his" name, meaning Theon. Seems he has moments of really being like fuck his reek bullshit, and in those moments it seems he might snap back into reality. But hey I am not a psychologist.

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One thing I can perhaps point at leading away from the Theon Durden theory is that after his escape with Jeyne, he does not mention killing anyone in Winterfell to Asha, or to himself, and he does specifically say that he told her everything. When he thinks about the old gods knowing "his" name, meaning Theon. Seems he has moments of really being like fuck his reek bullshit, and in those moments it seems he might snap back into reality. But hey I am not a psychologist.

Do you mean that these things may point toward the Theon Durden theory? If so, then I could see how they could be interpreted that way. Also, I really don't think Reek/Theon is responsible for any of the mysterious murders in Winterfell. I think it's a combination of Abel and/or his washerwomen and a little Walder on Walder homicide action motivated by "rival elimination" ;)

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Do you mean that these things may point toward the Theon Durden theory? If so, then I could see how they could be interpreted that way. Also, I really don't think Reek/Theon is responsible for any of the mysterious murders in Winterfell. I think it's a combination of Abel and/or his washerwomen and a little Walder on Walder homicide action motivated by "rival elimination" ;)

So what is to believe in, in the Theon Duren Theory then? If it is simple schizophrenia, then ya Theons mind is pretty fucked up but I thought the whole theory rested on him being warged by Bran to commit the murders, or going complete multi personality. And no I meant that if he committed the murders without originally realizing it then I think he would at some point in the future while regaining his own identity remember committing them.

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Hmm...I guess I don't know what there is to "believe in" with the Theon Durden theory (a moniker which originated to deride the theory - thus, I fully embrace it ;) ). I don't think I originated the theory at all. It's just that it was my initial interpretation of what was going on in that scene and I've seen nothing yet that convinces me I'm wrong. I've certainly seen many great theories otherwise, don't get me wrong, but as with the Theon Durden theory, they are still simply theories at this point.

I guess it is about time to at least throw the Theon Durden theory into some of these threads again. Here's something I posted awhile back (with some minor edits) about what I think and why I think it:

...I believe Reek is walking along and, basically, has a conversation with the man he used to be and wants to be again - Theon (who is, at least, one of the ghosts in Winterfell).

I believe Martin has not only been giving us different POVs throughout the story but he also has, very realistically, made some of those viewpoints unreliable. I think we're not only in someone's head who may be unreliable with Reek/Theon but we're actually looking through the eyes of someone struggling with their very identity. Someone actually trying to figure out or hold on to who they are. As I said before, I think Reek's experience with the Hooded Man (the person he would like to be again) is when he really decided to defy Ramsey and, thus, chose to remain Theon in truth.

As far as the murders go, for now, I doubt they were even committed by the same person. I feel that the young Walder (can't remember if it was Big or Little) was killed by the other Walder. I think the guy who had his dick stuffed in his mouth (Yellow Dick?) was done in by at least one of the "washerwomen". And I really don't know what to think of the collapsed stables - maybe that was also done by Bael Abel and the washerwomen just to sow more discord?

That's pretty much it in a nutshell for me (for now) :dunno:

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Yellow Dick was done by Ramsay..his unmentionables stuffed in his mouth ( with incredible violence, breaking teeth ) in payment for carrying tales to Roose ,or for carrying warnings from Roose to Ramsay. It's only after his death that we see the tension between Roose and Ramsay erupt into the open...Ramsay directly disobeying Roose's command to keep the details quiet .. and in such a way as to foment more accusations between the various factions ( rewards ).. and later , their public heated argument in the hall , where what was said between them terrified Walda.

ETA: Roose has tried to get Theon to carry warnings to Ramsay, which Theon was too terrified to do.. but YD ( actually Roose's man ) has been Ramsay's lieutenant and has not suffered the brunt of Ramsay's cruelty..he would think himself safe ,probably having carried Roose's water to Ramsay for years.

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