How will the TV Audience feel about Tyrion? (Book 3 Spoiler)

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

Part of the problem with Tyrion's earlier wrongs is that they weren't terribly good points to film to introduce moral ambiguity to his character. Although the treatment and reaction to Sansa would've been a good place to start making him much less of a good guy, I think they finally have a good way to explicitly show, in a non-confusing manner, a darker side to him.

[go joff go]

Yeah if there is a change from the books to the show is that the show makes it a point to give characters motivation for there actions. Especially in regards to Tyrion its sort of a necessary change b/c his actions in the book a lot of times boiled down to generic he is a bitter drawf which wouldn't work on TV. They have done a similar thing for Cersei. Her evil Queen routine never made sense even once we got her POV.

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

Yeah if there is a change from the books to the show is that the show makes it a point to give characters motivation for there actions. Especially in regards to Tyrion its sort of a necessary change b/c his actions in the book a lot of times boiled down to generic he is a bitter drawf which wouldn't work on TV. They have done a similar thing for Cersei. Her evil Queen routine never made sense even once we got her POV.

Well Tyrion is pretty selfish and manipulative of people, much more so in the books. He doesn't particularly care about people he uses and often screws them over to get what he wants. They sort of touched on this in the series, but ultimately all the people he screws over are "bad" people anyways, so it's almost justice instead of Tyrion being ruthless.

But with an opportunity to film something as awesome as his escape, there's no real reason to change it since people will still love the character while simultaneously being super shocked.

[Nymeria...gloves..]

This is whats going to happen. (but still a prediction)

Tyrion climbs the ladder and waits while peaking through a crack to the Hand's Chamber.

Tyrion sees a Scene with Tywin and Shea making out in the bed embraced (shock!!). He gets up to go to the bathroom with a smirk saying something about getting ready for her...

As he leave she says to Tywin "Hurry back! Don't leave me waiting MY LION*" (shock!)

Audience immediatly craves her blood, and everyone will LOVE Tyrion as usual.

*and I do really think that they will ditch "my giant of lannister" for "my lion" because thats what shes been calling for for the past 3 seasons"

[lyanna_maria]

I like it the way you explain it, Nymeria. I hadn't thought about the "my lion", but of course you are right. That's a pity: the "giant of Lannister" has much more significance to Tyrion than just "my lion".

[wargalicious]

Having them actually love each other makes it all a bit more tragic, rather than Tyrion being an idiot again. Since we don't get his thoughts, we don't truly get to see the inner turmoil a lifetime of rejection and repulsion has caused. Sure, it will make Shae look worse, but we don't exactly know how it's going to play out, as in what will cause her to finally testify against him. Cat's scene served a purpose to demonstrate grief for what's happened to her family, even if it was odd. Again, there's no need to have like 5 scenes in S3 with animosity between the two if she's not going to turn on him in the end, either willfully or forcibly.

The only problem I'm picturing is her banging Tywin while Tyrion was basically a dead man. I have a feeling that Tywin will leave her no choice, order her up to his chambers, Tyrion sees her in the bed and off she goes.

Now I'm just reminded that book Tywin took sloppy seconds from Tyrion and it seems so incomprehensible (since there are tons of other whores). So on the flipside that aspect of it will always be weird.

I think that Tywin's sloppy seconds is the twist that makes Tywin's character in the books. The hypocrisy, the depravity and the evil...but I have a hard time seeing Charles Dance's character, who has been given less mystery in the show...I kind of feel the audience won't believe that.

I'm among the ones who thinks that show-Tywin will kill show-Shae and then show-Tyrion will kill him alone.

that scene in the books is my absolute favorite of the whole series.

[Lord Ronin]

Shae got what was coming to her, long live the imp!!!!

[Jon Manwoody]

forget Shae...the real challenge for the showrunners is Tysha.

.This show doesnt do flashbacks, so they are going to have to do some clever dialog throughout the season that seeds in Tyrions true love and hurt for Tysha (while at the same time not making his love for Shae any weaker)

I would bet that they would bring it up in the "Previously On" part in the beginning. Like they did with Selmy before he showed up with Dany.

[Eogh]

I will be absolutely shocked if B&W have Tyrion kill Shae. They are way too big of Tyrion fanboys to ever allow him to do something so morally dark as that, especially after changing Shae from an uncaring, opportunistic gold-digger to a woman who turns down a literal bag of diamonds because she loves Tyrion and Sansa so much.

Hell, they didn't even let Cersei do a lot of the horrible things she does in the books, like having Robert's bastards killed and sending Ser Mandon to kill Tyrion, because it would have apparently made her too unsympathetic. Instead, they gave those actions to Joffrey.

So I simply just don't see them having the guts.

Agree big time.

[grand old duke of stark]

'Onna Lewyys'

I will be absolutely shocked if B&W have Tyrion kill Shae. They are way too big of Tyrion fanboys to ever allow him to do something so morally dark as that, especially after changing Shae from an uncaring, opportunistic gold-digger to a woman who turns down a literal bag of diamonds because she loves Tyrion and Sansa so much.

Hell, they didn't even let Cersei do a lot of the horrible things she does in the books, like having Robert's bastards killed and sending Ser Mandon to kill Tyrion, because it would have apparently made her too unsympathetic. Instead, they gave those actions to Joffrey.

So I simply just don't see them having the guts.

==========================================================================

Agreed. D&D have a track record of softening and simplifying the likeable characters. Especially the females. :frown5: While I approve of a lot of their changes, especially considering the medium, character dumbing down is one tendency I detest.

There are ways they can let Tyrion be Shae's murderer without whitewashing him too much. They can develop the affair between her and Tywin, make it more cynical. Then let Tyrion suspect and then prove she has a lover. As his situation becomes more desperate and his jealousy more tortuous, Shae's trial testimony is the metaphorical knife in his heart. He finds out then or later that his replacement is Tywin. When he finally gets to Shae, he should strangle her with her golden chains (or maybe the Hand chain if it was a gift from Tywin) and then shoot the shit out of Tywin.

Still dark, still complex, but a bit more justified.

[MavsWorld]

I haven't seen all of the show, so I was wondering if they have brought up Tysha in it? If they haven't, from what people have written in the thread, I was wondering if they may potentially be setting Shae up to represent Tysha, e.g. she could testify against him due to threats against Sansa/torture, Tyrion kills her, Jaime tells Tyrion why she testified against him when he releases Tyrion, Tyrion kills his father in revenge and personality changes due to disgust at himself and his loss of trust in those he thought he could trust. This way they are saving on an actree to play Tysha and gang-rape scenes.

[Creepio]

I haven't seen all of the show, so I was wondering if they have brought up Tysha in it? If they haven't, from what people have written in the thread, I was wondering if they may potentially be setting Shae up to represent Tysha, e.g. she could testify against him due to threats against Sansa/torture, Tyrion kills her, Jaime tells Tyrion why she testified against him when he releases Tyrion, Tyrion kills his father in revenge and personality changes due to disgust at himself and his loss of trust in those he thought he could trust. This way they are saving on an actree to play Tysha and gang-rape scenes.

She was mentioned back in Season 2 when Tyrion first meets Shae, actually. I'm just not sure it was enough for viewers to understand how deeply hurt Tyrion was by the whole situation.

IMO they're not going to have Tyrion kill Shae. They're changing her character to be in love with him, so the only logical thing I see them doing is having Tywin kill Shae and then Tyrion killing Tywin. It's whitewashing Tyrion, sure, but without his inner monologue I'm not sure his murder of Shae would play out well anyway.

[Onna Lewyys]

She was mentioned back in Season 2 when Tyrion first meets Shae, actually. I'm just not sure it was enough for viewers to understand how deeply hurt Tyrion was by the whole situation.

IMO they're not going to have Tyrion kill Shae. They're changing her character to be in love with him, so the only logical thing I see them doing is having Tywin kill Shae and then Tyrion killing Tywin. It's whitewashing Tyrion, sure, but without his inner monologue I'm not sure his murder of Shae would play out well anyway.

Yes, this is what I've been thinking is much more likely. While they have mentioned Tysha a bit - Tyrion told the story to Shae and Bronn back in S1, and then he said, "I was wed" when Tywin told him to marry Sansa - obviously she hasn't been mentioned to the extent that she's mentioned in Tyrion's POV chapters (it's like all the freaking time, seriously). So I think they could be making Shae into a sort of stand-in for Tysha in this situation, like MavsWorld said. Again, I hope I'm wrong, but I'm not counting on it. It fits B&W's m.o.

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

Cersei also mentions something about Tyrion marrying a whore when she thinks she's caught Shae in S2. The problem is Tyrion thinks about Tysha all the time, he doesn't blab about it, so naturally that's going to be downplayed on TV.

[rystine]

I don't think it's quite accurate to say that Tysha hasn't been mentioned at all outside of the scene in S1 where Tyrion tells Shae and Bronn about it. There have been at least four or five scenes in which Tyrion brings up the fact that he was married before, several of them being in S3.

And beyond that, as has been said all that would be needed to refresh viewers minds regarding Tysha would be to show that scene on the "previously on" segment. And of course Jaime's confession to Tyrion will happen two minutes before any confrontation with Tyrion and Tywin.

So I don't see any need to have Shae stand in for Tysha. The show has already laid the groundwork, one just has to be observant enough to see it.

Regarding D&D changing the story so that Tywin kills Shae instead. I will admit that I have some fear that is may happen, because they are obvious Tyrion fanboys. But by and large I still hold the belief that they are professional enough not to do that.

They have to know that they are receiving an increasing amount of criticism for whitewashing Tyrion. And they certainly have to realize that Tyrion being so gray is exactly what makes him so interesting.

Removing Tyrion's murder of Shae would have them denounced by the vast majority of book readers as not much more than fanfic writers.

[Bridgeburners]

Regarding D&D changing the story so that Tywin kills Shae instead. I will admit that I have some fear that is may happen, because they are obvious Tyrion fanboys. But by and large I still hold the belief that they are professional enough not to do that.

They have to know that they are receiving an increasing amount of criticism for whitewashing Tyrion. And they certainly have to realize that Tyrion being so gray is exactly what makes him so interesting.

Removing Tyrion's murder of Shae would have them denounced by the vast majority of book readers as not much more than fanfic writers.

I don't think professionalism is a concern in this regard. Professional producers will insist they not tarnish the TV-only views of Tyrion, and they have to figure a way around this.

The problem is that, because Tyrion shows no signs of the ruthlessness or cruelty he has in the books, the sudden killing of Shae will come as a strange and unmotivated action to the viewers. And they would be right in conveying such criticism, because it's really up to the writers and producers of the show to deliver character motivation. They can't simply say "well it's in Tyrion's narrative in aSoIaF so we don't have to worry about showing it in the show", that would be a complete cop-out. If they want the show to stand as its own art form, separate from aSoIaF, they are obligated to justify their characters' motivations.

In that regard, the only way I see them allowing Tyrion to kill Shae is to make the entire season 4 a big downward spiral for Tyrion. Don't just make the extent of his spiral the culmination of two scenes (Oberyn failing in the trial and Jamie telling him the truth.) They have to put a much deeper emphasis on how Tyrion's circumstances are driving him to madness in a sense. Since the show so far hasn't laid the groundwork for Tyrion killing Shae at the end, they have to work hard on laying that groundwork in the whole of S4. I sincerely hope they do it, because I still vastly prefer a S4 where Tyrion kills Shae than one where they find another way for her to die.

[go joff go]

I don't think professionalism is a concern in this regard. Professional producers will insist they not tarnish the TV-only views of Tyrion, and they have to figure a way around this.

The problem is that, because Tyrion shows no signs of the ruthlessness or cruelty he has in the books, the sudden killing of Shae will come as a strange and unmotivated action to the viewers. And they would be right in conveying such criticism, because it's really up to the writers and producers of the show to deliver character motivation. They can't simply say "well it's in Tyrion's narrative in aSoIaF so we don't have to worry about showing it in the show", that would be a complete cop-out. If they want the show to stand as its own art form, separate from aSoIaF, they are obligated to justify their characters' motivations.

In that regard, the only way I see them allowing Tyrion to kill Shae is to make the entire season 4 a big downward spiral for Tyrion. Don't just make the extent of his spiral the culmination of two scenes (Oberyn failing in the trial and Jamie telling him the truth.) They have to put a much deeper emphasis on how Tyrion's circumstances are driving him to madness in a sense. Since the show so far hasn't laid the groundwork for Tyrion killing Shae at the end, they have to work hard on laying that groundwork in the whole of S4. I sincerely hope they do it, because I still vastly prefer a S4 where Tyrion kills Shae than one where they find another way for her to die.

What?!?! How is the killing of Shae unmotivated. They haven't laid the groundwork for it b/c the scenes that cause it to happen haven't happen yet.

[rystine]

In that regard, the only way I see them allowing Tyrion to kill Shae is to make the entire season 4 a big downward spiral for Tyrion. Don't just make the extent of his spiral the culmination of two scenes (Oberyn failing in the trial and Jamie telling him the truth.) They have to put a much deeper emphasis on how Tyrion's circumstances are driving him to madness in a sense. Since the show so far hasn't laid the groundwork for Tyrion killing Shae at the end, they have to work hard on laying that groundwork in the whole of S4. I sincerely hope they do it, because I still vastly prefer a S4 where Tyrion kills Shae than one where they find another way for her to die.

I would say that they have shown Tyrion on a downward path since S2 E10. Virtually all of S3 was Tyrion being forced into more and more despicable conditions by his family. His father refusing him Casterly Rock, him being forced into an unwanted marriage, and finally him being told by his father to rape his child-wife.

And they have 8 or 9 episodes in S4 to further emphasize that as well (several of which are likely going to have Tyrion imprisoned and facing an unjust trial).

Add Shae's betrayal in court (which I laid out in an earlier post how I believe that will play out), and there is plenty of time to show Tyrion's descent into murderous madness.

Like I said, I wouldn't put it past D&D to change Shae's death. But I still, for the time being, believe that Tyrion is going to be Shae's end and that it will be consistent with how the show develops.

[echidna]

They could have Tyrion discover Shae with Tywin. Tyrion loses it and threatens to kill Shae. Tywin snarls that Tyrion is "all talk and no action" and kills Shae. The Tryion kills Tywin with Shae's knife

[lyanna_maria]

I'm absolutely sure they won't turn show-Shae into the new Tysha, because they have mentionedbthe Tysha episode several times in the show, actually, though they were subtle references. When Cersei captured Ross (thinking she was Shae) she told Tyrion "atl least you haven't married this whore). When Tywin told Tyrion to marry Sansa, he answered "I was married". When drinking and talking with Tyrion before the wedding, Bronn made a jest about Tysha ans Tyrion answered "I should never have told yuou that story". All these times, Perer Dinklage's performance showed that for Tyrion these memories are still very painful.

I hope they make Tyrion kill shae, but I also hope that they will make show-Shae less likeable during season 5 and that they make their relationship evolve a lot for the worse, and that Shae lies in the trial out of soite or jealousy or the promise of a better position as Tywin's lover. This way, Tyrion's act won't be seen as such a horrible one (although it certainly is horrible)