How will the TV Audience feel about Tyrion? (Book 3 Spoiler)

[Creepio]

What?!?! How is the killing of Shae unmotivated. They haven't laid the groundwork for it b/c the scenes that cause it to happen haven't happen yet.

You're right; they could definitely lay the groundwork out for this all season. But what concerns me is the way in which they've been scripting Shae up until now. Rather than being the opportunistic, annoying whore from the books, she is now an annoying whore who is very much in love with Tyrion and totally willing to kill for Sansa! I don't see how they could have such a dramatic shift from this portrayal to where she would be betraying Tyrion so deeply. It's likely Tywin kills her, Tyrion kills Tywin.

The only glimmer of hope is that they pointedly brought up Tysha again this season (when Tyrion yells at Tywin how he already was married). So maybe they'll script it as in the books. But it just feels improbable to me at this point.

[YTDN]

You're right; they could definitely lay the groundwork out for this all season. But what concerns me is the way in which they've been scripting Shae up until now. Rather than being the opportunistic, annoying whore from the books, she is now an annoying whore who is very much in love with Tyrion and totally willing to kill for Sansa! I don't see how they could have such a dramatic shift from this portrayal to where she would be betraying Tyrion so deeply. It's likely Tywin kills her, Tyrion kills Tywin.

The only glimmer of hope is that they pointedly brought up Tysha again this season (when Tyrion yells at Tywin how he already was married). So maybe they'll script it as in the books. But it just feels improbable to me at this point.

She's also an "annoying whore" who is frustrated that the man she loves enough to risk her life for doesn't seem willing to do the same for her. Notice all her choices involve staying closer to Tyrion, even if it includes a loss in material wealth (see her refusing Tyrion's offer of a house in 3.7). Tyrion's choices to her seem selfish- he decides to stay in KL at the end of S2 because he loves the game too much, and again refuses to run away with her in S3, preferring to marry Sansa and keep Shae on the side.

I could certainly see her betrayal of him in S4 framed as "Why risk your life for a man who wouldn't do the same for you?"

[Shadow on the Wall]

I think it's a real possibility that Tyrion won't kill Shae. Because at the moment, Shae is a (slightly annoying) kind hearted character. So either they change her characterisation rapidly or they make Tyrion look like a horrible person.

I was angry at Tyrion for murdering Shae in the books but at least I knew that she was a cold hearted, money grabbing woman who would happily see Tyrion die if she could get further in life. That's not tv Shae's personality at all.

[owl]

I really hope that they don't change that part in the series. I think it is pivotal for Tyrion's character and sets up his state of mind for the next phase of his plot line. If they do this properly, it would be a great Episode 9 shocker for the TV audience!

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

I really hope that they don't change that part in the series. I think it is pivotal for Tyrion's character and sets up his state of mind for the next phase of his plot line. If they do this properly, it would be a great Episode 9 shocker for the TV audience!

Technically him being bitter and dark doesn't really seem to matter much by the time he gets to Plumm. They could easily just have him be normal Tyrion through the trip as most of his brooding occurs before being sent off with Young Griff. But it's just such a great part of the story that cutting it makes no sense. People will still love the character, and those that don't will still be intrigued for the most part.

[Newstar]

I think they might just play it as a shocking twist and Tyrion "breaking bad" (sorry! I need that final season yesterday), rather than trying to ease into it by showing Tyrion doing and saying increasingly darker things. Arya's kill streak in the books was largely played down in Seasons 2 and 3, but it only seemed to make her post-RW slide into brutal, premeditated murder all the more shocking and jarring. Maybe the writers are going for something similar with Tyrion by playing down his more ambiguous qualities from the books: have him turn on a dime from the much less ambiguous and much less grey TV Tyrion to a much darker version of character by virtue of what happens with Shae.

[six]

It would be a cop out if Tyrion didn't kill Shae. If Shae was to turn against Tyrion, betray him, mock him in front of everyone and sentence him to death like in the books, I see no reason why he wouldn't want to kill her in the show, too. At that point he would have lost everything and everyone; Bronn abandons him for money, he spent a lot of time jailed so he's tired and not to mention innocent, and no one except for a stranger with his own agenda, is willing to help him. They could even have the Jaime/Tysha revelation earlier, as to make him feel completely betrayed, lonely and bitter. So if the showrunners wanted to have Tyrion kill Shae and go over the dark side, it could work imo, and personally I can't wait for it cause those chapters were very very good.

What I find more difficult to believe is Shae betraying Tyrion. Yes we've seen some cracks in their relationships, but show!Shae is stupid and I'm being kind here. She has no grasp of reality whatsoever i.e. she can't marry Tyrion, ever, it would never ever happen, and as a prostitute who has traveled and seen a lot, she should very much know this. She's refusing money to stay close to Tyrion, I can't see her being that smart as to change sides when shit starts to go down and testify against Tyrion to save her skin. I'll wait to see how it plays out, but I'm skeptical atm. Maybe if they restore Cersei to the fierce alpha bitch she was in season 1 and 2, and have Cersei torture Shae it might work and making Shae switch sides. Otherwise, I can't see how it would be logical atm.

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

You don't need to be smart to testify against someone after being threatened into it by the royal family. I don't see what smarts has to do with it.

[LadyMacks]

I think the show likes shock. Look at the Red Wedding, they changed it from the books and made it even more painful by having Talisa there and pregnant. I really hope they stay true to the books and have Tyrion kill them, it'll be the perfect shock and I'd love to see how they portray it.

[Lothar]

This is whats going to happen. (but still a prediction)

Tyrion climbs the ladder and waits while peaking through a crack to the Hand's Chamber.

Tyrion sees a Scene with Tywin and Shea making out in the bed embraced (shock!!). He gets up to go to the bathroom with a smirk saying something about getting ready for her...

As he leave she says to Tywin "Hurry back! Don't leave me waiting MY LION*" (shock!)

Audience immediatly craves her blood, and everyone will LOVE Tyrion as usual.

*and I do really think that they will ditch "my giant of lannister" for "my lion" because thats what shes been calling for for the past 3 seasons"

Anyone craving blood because a girl is sleeping with someone else or embarrassed a person is messed up in the head.

People did not love Walter White after what he did in Season 2 to a girl that wronged him and that wasn't even half as bad as what Tyrion did to Shae.

I think this would turn Tyrion into a villain in the eyes of audience. Much like Walter White is seen now in Breaking Bad.

[Sleeve of Wizard]

I already dislike the Imp but I agree that it would be a cop out to exclude his murder of Shae.

[Queen of Whores]

Anyone craving blood because a girl is sleeping with someone else or embarrassed a person is messed up in the head.

People did not love Walter White after what he did in Season 2 to a girl that wronged him and that wasn't even half as bad as what Tyrion did to Shae.

I think this would turn Tyrion into a villain in the eyes of audience. Much like Walter White is seen now in Breaking Bad.

He would be no more a villain in the series than he is in the books. We're not supposed to like or support what Tyrion does to Shae. It's terrible. But this is what makes him much more conflicted for the audience. Do we still like him despite what he did? Maybe.

Also, Walt techniquely didn't do anything to that girl (avoiding names for spoilers) he just didn't do anything at all. A small difference, sometimes, but a difference nonetheless. Her death could also be seen for the greater good of several characters. A necessary evil if you will. Shae's murder was completely unnecessary and filled with malice. Note that Walt cries after what happened, whereas Tyrion has no response at all. I think the point where a lot of audiences started disliking Walt was with the revelation at the end of season 4. I personally only started disliking him mid way through season 5, despite some of the questionable things he'd done.

As to your remark about people seeing Tyrion as a villian; look at Tony Soprano. Despite doing some pretty terrible things for a long time, he was still liked by a majority of the audience, and they still rooted for him. I think this will be the case with Tyrion if D&D follow the books.

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

As to your remark about people seeing Tyrion as a villian; look at Tony Soprano. Despite doing some pretty terrible things for a long time, he was still liked by a majority of the audience, and they still rooted for him. I think this will be the case with Tyrion if D&D follow the books.

I agree with the premise, but there is a difference here. Tony is setup to be a "bad guy" from the get go. He's a mafia boss, a killer, violent, unfaithful, whatever...But the audience grows to like him in spite of those things. Tyrion on the other hand will go from being a "good guy" to suddenly doing pretty terrible things, so think of Jaime Lannister in reverse. I feel that D&D are aware that presenting a great story is better than presenting noble characters in the long run, but have rather chosen to make Tyrion's decline more abrupt.

But even in the books it doesn't last all that long, as Tyrion returns to being himself toward the end of ADwD and certainly into TWoW, so he will remain a fan favorite.

[Le Cygne]

Maybe if they restore Cersei to the fierce alpha bitch she was in season 1 and 2

There could be a Smeagol-Gollum debate between Seashell Cersei and Fierce Alpha Bitch Cersei, and FAB Cersei would win.

[Queen of Whores]

There could be a Smeagol-Gollum debate between Seashell Cersei and Fierce Alpha Bitch Cersei, and FAB Cersei would win.

"Tyrion is our brothers's, he would never do anything to hurts us."

"Fool! He is a tricksy little dwarf. He will takes our dear Joff from us!"

"He...he would never do that. He loves us! He loves us!"

"Shut up! Where would we be without me? Nowhere! I've always looked after us. Ever since growing up as a child at Casterly Rock."

[Woman of War]

"Tyrion is our brothers's, he would never do anything to hurts us."

"Fool! He is a tricksy little dwarf. He will takes our dear Joff from us!"

"He...he would never do that. He loves us! He loves us!"

"Shut up! Where would we be without me? Nowhere! I've always looked after us. Ever since growing up as a child at Casterly Rock."

:rofl:

[Le Cygne]

"Tyrion is our brothers's, he would never do anything to hurts us."

"Fool! He is a tricksy little dwarf. He will takes our dear Joff from us!"

"He...he would never do that. He loves us! He loves us!"

"Shut up! Where would we be without me? Nowhere! I've always looked after us. Ever since growing up as a child at Casterly Rock."

That's great, thank you! :)

[six]

You don't need to be smart to testify against someone after being threatened into it by the royal family. I don't see what smarts has to do with it.

That's not what I meant. IIRC, in one of Cersei's chapters we learn that Shae wasn't exactly threatened, she was initially offered something in return, I think she wanted a good marriage or something (admittedly I don't remember it that well, so I'd have to check to be sure). Book!Shae was a chancer, who realistically switched sides on a sinking ship. She wasn't stupidly loyal like in the show, she's a prostitute so she knows she has to make the best of what she has. Hopelessly holding on to a man she has no future with is something book!Shae wouldn't have done. So yes, show!Shae isn't smart enough to switch sides willingly- at least not currently, she might wise up next season and I'm hoping this is the case. However she probably would betray Tyrion if threatened with her life... Thing is, the only person who would threaten her is Cersei because she's the only one who wants Tyrion dead, so like I said, it means that both Cersei and Shae have to go trough some character development to get them to that point, because as they stand I don't think it would be believable.

"Tyrion is our brothers's, he would never do anything to hurts us."

"Fool! He is a tricksy little dwarf. He will takes our dear Joff from us!"

"He...he would never do that. He loves us! He loves us!"

"Shut up! Where would we be without me? Nowhere! I've always looked after us. Ever since growing up as a child at Casterly Rock."

Hahahah, I actually want to see it now :laugh:

[King in the North Carolina]

I really don't get the debate over whether the show will include Tyrion killing Shae. Despite what some on these boards would have you believe, ShowTyrion has differed only in minor ways from BookTyrion, IMO. D&D are fans of the books, and of Tyrion; I don't see them changing a major plot point in the interest of making his character more vanilla.

I would be willing to bet Tyrion kills her, and I would feel very secure making that bet.

[Khal-a-bunga]

@ King in the North Carolina

No man, you just don't get it. Tyrion threatening to rape his nephew is integral to his character, and leaving it out utterly betrays his moral complexity. In fact, I'm almost willing to believe that D&D have never even read the books. I mean, they had the audacity to give Cersei actual dimensions! Dimensions! Don't they understand that humans only have the capability to think and act one way at a time? How could Cersei find common ground with her brother, when she hates him for killing their mother? Sure, she probably realizes that it's not really his fault, but that's besides the point. Cersei is a stone cold ice queen in the books. By giving her any semblance of a deeper thought process in the show, they have utterly failed in their adaptation. Absolutely ridiculous. And let's not even get started on Shae. I mean, in the books, it was totally and completely understandable why Tyrion felt so passionately about her... Right? Right?!