How will the TV Audience feel about Tyrion? (Book 3 Spoiler)

[Bridgeburners]

I really don't get the debate over whether the show will include Tyrion killing Shae. Despite what some on these boards would have you believe, ShowTyrion has differed only in minor ways from BookTyrion, IMO. D&D are fans of the books, and of Tyrion; I don't see them changing a major plot point in the interest of making his character more vanilla.

I would be willing to bet Tyrion kills her, and I would feel very secure making that bet.

But see, you could argue that Tyrion killing Shae is not a major plot point. It certainly is a major portrayal of his character and psychological development. But as far as "plot point" goes, everything can go on exactly as it has in FfC and DwD if they decide to let Tywin kill Shae instead of Tyrion (with one or two minor details at the beginning of FfC being different). And as far as details informing Tyrion's complexity, D&D have already made such changes to make Tyrion more vanilla. They completely omitted Tyrion ordering the Singer Stew, which alone could be enough to turn plenty of the TV audience. As Khal-a-Bunga pointed out in his weirdly sarcastic post, they omitted his comments about raping his nephew.

If they did all that in order to further shock us in Tyrion's moral plunge in killing Shae, then awesome, more power to them for doing that. It would be similar to them building up Robb and Talisa's wonderful relationship in order to increase the shock value of the red wedding. However, at this point, we don't know if that's what they're doing, or if it has simply been a way to please the producers in giving the TV fans an awesome character to keep rooting for. If the latter is the case, then they would likely make Tywin kill Shae. Since we don't know which of these directions D&D are steering, our debates are just speculative reasoning for each contingency.

[binga]

All the things she does will have far more of an impact on television. Hearing her testify and seeing her in bed with Tywin will probably make a lot of the audience very angry. Not to mention that David and Dan can have her do a lot more negative stuff in order to add to her crimes. She can pretend to be helping Tyrion find a witness who could exonerate him and instead they show her killing that witness. There are a million different ways for the show to make her crimes far worse than what it was in the books.

[Minsc]

Absolutely ridiculous. And let's not even get started on Shae. I mean, in the books, it was totally and completely understandable why Tyrion felt so passionately about her... Right? Right?!

Actually, their change of the Tyrion/Shae dynamic is one of the changes that I most dislike in how ruins how screwed up Tywin made Tyrion when he forced Tyrion to rape Tysha.

[echidna]

I believe that Tyrion will kill Shae. It was implied that the diamonds offered to Shae came from Tyrion, so that we'll all be shocked when it turns out next season that the 'he' Shae referred to was Tywin.

Shae keeps saying there's 'someone she has to see' giving us the impression that its Tyrion. I'm guessing its Tywin that she's actually talking about, as she usually says such things to Sansa after Shae has recently seen Tyrion.

But Shae's death may well come across like Arya killing the boasting Frey, so the showrunners can use temporary insanity as Tyrion's defence.

Tyrion first met Shae in the Lannister military camp, and Tywin made a disparaging remark about Tyrion's whore and killing her ... which given Tywin snd Tyrion's relationship was almost guaranteed to ensure Tyrion kept her close, exactly as 10-moves-ahead-Tywin wanted. She's always been Tywin's

[Lothar]

He would be no more a villain in the series than he is in the books. We're not supposed to like or support what Tyrion does to Shae. It's terrible. But this is what makes him much more conflicted for the audience. Do we still like him despite what he did? Maybe.

The difference is Shae in the show is a much nicer character than she is in the books. She protects Sansa at the risk of her own life. She won't take Varys's offer of a bag of diamonds so she can stay with Tyrion. At this point of the story, she's undoubtedly a good person. Killing her for the reasons of sleeping with someone else or embarrassing him would make Tyrion a villain.

Also, Walt techniquely didn't do anything to that girl (avoiding names for spoilers) he just didn't do anything at all. A small difference, sometimes, but a difference nonetheless. Her death could also be seen for the greater good of several characters. A necessary evil if you will. Shae's murder was completely unnecessary and filled with malice. Note that Walt cries after what happened, whereas Tyrion has no response at all.

Exactly, what Tyrion did is far worse. And I think that thing in Breaking Bad Season 2 is the worst thing Walt ever did.

Jaime throwing Bran is a more understandable action that is easier to reconcile with rooting for him, because he did it to protect his family. Tyrion just killed a girl because for petty revenge because she lied about him.

[binga]

The difference is Shae in the show is a much nicer character than she is in the books. She protects Sansa at the risk of her own life. She won't take Varys's offer of a bag of diamonds so she can stay with Tyrion. At this point of the story, she's undoubtedly a good person. Killing her for the reasons of sleeping with someone else or embarrassing him would make Tyrion a villain.

Exactly, what Tyrion did is far worse. And I think that thing in Breaking Bad Season 2 is the worst thing Walt ever did.

Jaime throwing Bran is a more understandable action that is easier to reconcile with rooting for him, because he did it to protect his family. Tyrion just killed a girl because for petty revenge because she lied about him.

Except Jaime has gotten a lot more flack from fans for throwing Bran out of a window than Tyrion has ever received for killing Shae. In some ways you can argue Jaime put a lot more lives at risk by killing Bran in order to hide his own mistakes. He protects himself and perhaps his family but puts thousands of families at risk. One lord's son pushing another lord's son out of a window can be seen as an act of war and the incident does infact lead to a brutal war. It is difficult to compare the two crimes.

[Joseph Nobles]

The show could swap the kills.

Tyrion, exhausted from the climb and seething from what he has learned from Jaime, observes his father mounting someone, but does not see who. Tywin leaves for the facilities and Tywin follows, killing him there. On the way back, he recognizes Shea. So it's not only the weariness and the wound, but Tyrion will have already killed once. And she wore the necklace to bed with his father. This way when he kills her, he can be an emotional wreck.

The main thing is that the audience understands why Tyrion kills Shae. They don't have to approve of it.

[owl]

"Tyrion is our brothers's, he would never do anything to hurts us."

"Fool! He is a tricksy little dwarf. He will takes our dear Joff from us!"

"He...he would never do that. He loves us! He loves us!"

"Shut up! Where would we be without me? Nowhere! I've always looked after us. Ever since growing up as a child at Casterly Rock."

I can just see it now!

[Golden Hand]

Tyrion is going to kill shae.And I guarantee the audience is gonna cheer when he does it.

[metr0man]

Characters like Walter White, Tony Soprano, Dexter, Don Draper, etc all are still liked by fans when they do awful things. And considering Shae betrayed Tyrion before he killed her - I'm pretty sure fans will feel just fine about him. Hell you'll probably hear plenty of borderline misogynist comments about what a whore/slut/bitch Shae is and how she deserved it

[ejhawman]

At this point, I would be pleasantly surprised if they followed the book closely enough to have Tyrion kill Shae.

I am expecting him to arrive in the Hand's Tower to find her hanging there already, courtesy of Tywin, whom Tyrion immediately shoots.

But if they want to keep the "Where do whores go?" thing that Tyrion gets stuck on in ADWD, they can have him call Shae as a witness for his trial... and she never shows. Than, when he escapes and confronts Tywin, Tyrion asks him "What did you do with Shae? WHERE IS SHE?" And Tywin answers... and Tyrion spends season 5 looking.

[Martini Sigil]

Tyrion is going to kill shae.And I guarantee the audience is gonna cheer when he does it.

^^^What he said^^^

It's not like Show!Tyrion visits orphanages and bakes cookies. He's still a conniving scumbag, just not quite as much as in the books. Shae & Tywin will get offed by Tyrion, and no one will bat an eye.

[Seneti]

Tyrion is going to kill shae.And I guarantee the audience is gonna cheer when he does it.

I agree, too. From the way they are playing their relationship, I'd say it will go something like this:

1) Shae getting more and more p***ed at Tyrion for trying to send her away (and for agreeing to marry Sansa).

2) Sansa and Tyrion both stand accused of kingslaying and she is given the choice whom to testify for.

3) Shae decides to heap the blame on Tyrion to save Sansa.

4) Tyrion loses his trial by combat and Shae will know that it's over and she needs to move on. Even in the show, Shae is way too pragmatic a character to just wallow in grief and despair.

4) Tywin pays Shae to sleep with him. She IS a whore after all and needs to make a living, Tyrion is obviously in no position to pay her anymore and Tywin's hypocrisy is crucial to his character. This will be the moment at which TV audiences will start to hate Shae.

5) Tyrion finds her in Tywin's chambers and kills her and Tywin.

6) Audience cheers.

[six]

Tyrion is going to kill shae.And I guarantee the audience is gonna cheer when he does it.

Yeah well, she's quite annoying so I might cheer.

[lyanna_maria]

1) Shae getting more and more p***ed at Tyrion for trying to send her away (and for agreeing to marry Sansa).

2) Sansa and Tyrion both stand accused of kingslaying and she is given the choice whom to testify for.

3) Shae decides to heap the blame on Tyrion to save Sansa.

4) Tyrion loses his trial by combat and Shae will know that it's over and she needs to move on. Even in the show, Shae is way too pragmatic a character to just wallow in grief and despair.

4) Tywin pays Shae to sleep with him. She IS a whore after all and needs to make a living, Tyrion is obviously in no position to pay her anymore and Tywin's hypocrisy is crucial to his character. This will be the moment at which TV audiences will start to hate Shae.

5) Tyrion finds her in Tywin's chambers and kills her and Tywin.

6) Audience cheers.

I agree with it all, Seneti; but I'd like to emphasize the first step. I think by the time Shae has to testify, her relationship with Tyrion will be very damaged and she won't be in very good terms with him, even if they haven't """broken up""". I stress this because I see show-Shae has true feeling towards Tyrion, and I can't imagine her hurting him, not even for the sake of Sansa, unless love turns into spite.

[Bridgeburners]

I agree, too. From the way they are playing their relationship, I'd say it will go something like this:

1) Shae getting more and more p***ed at Tyrion for trying to send her away (and for agreeing to marry Sansa).

2) Sansa and Tyrion both stand accused of kingslaying and she is given the choice whom to testify for.

3) Shae decides to heap the blame on Tyrion to save Sansa.

4) Tyrion loses his trial by combat and Shae will know that it's over and she needs to move on. Even in the show, Shae is way too pragmatic a character to just wallow in grief and despair.

4) Tywin pays Shae to sleep with him. She IS a whore after all and needs to make a living, Tyrion is obviously in no position to pay her anymore and Tywin's hypocrisy is crucial to his character. This will be the moment at which TV audiences will start to hate Shae.

5) Tyrion finds her in Tywin's chambers and kills her and Tywin.

6) Audience cheers.

I've seen people spin it so many ways in this thread, and not once have they done so in such a way that justifies Tyrion's action, or doesn't make him look like monster. Sure, he'll still remain golden in the eyes of fans who root for Walter White, Tony Soprano, Dexter, or Spartacus, and hell, maybe even fans of none of them. But just like there were disillusioned book fans like myself, there will be plenty of disillusioned TV fans.

Of course, many book fans may have been disillusioned before that, when he ordered "Singer Stew". But, of course, since TV Tyrion is so much more golden, this might hit fans harder.

[Gramsci]

I've seen people spin it so many ways in this thread, and not once have they done so in such a way that justifies Tyrion's action, or doesn't make him look like monster. Sure, he'll still remain golden in the eyes of fans who root for Walter White, Tony Soprano, Dexter, or Spartacus, and hell, maybe even fans of none of them. But just like there were disillusioned book fans like myself, there will be plenty of disillusioned TV fans.

Of course, many book fans may have been disillusioned before that, when he ordered "Singer Stew". But, of course, since TV Tyrion is so much more golden, this might hit fans harder.

Frankly, just about every character in the book is a monster, so what reason is there to be disillusioned?

We can all argue the morals and ethics of his choice until we are blue in the face, but surely Martin was trying to convey something similar to what Jules Verne conveyed in Captain Nemo: there is a villain in every hero and a hero in every villain, and just how things play out is a matter of culture and context. Tyrion was meant to appear the monster, but in the back of your mind you should recognize that he was MADE into the monster. He even says to Jaime something along the lines of, "I am the monster you all thought me to be." Shae helped make that monster as much as Tywin. It is ridiculous to me that people are so willing to accept Oberyn's actions, but somehow want to make Tyrion into a complete villain.

I promise that you and other disillusioned fans will be in a very tiny minority, if they choose to play out the Shae saga even remotely like it is in the books. People in the modern world love a good anti-hero

ETA: Forgiving a few qualities, Tyrion is almost your quintessential Byronic hero

[Golden Hand]

I've seen people spin it so many ways in this thread, and not once have they done so in such a way that justifies Tyrion's action, or doesn't make him look like monster. Sure, he'll still remain golden in the eyes of fans who root for Walter White, Tony Soprano, Dexter, or Spartacus, and hell, maybe even fans of none of them. But just like there were disillusioned book fans like myself, there will be plenty of disillusioned TV fans.

Of course, many book fans may have been disillusioned before that, when he ordered "Singer Stew". But, of course, since TV Tyrion is so much more golden, this might hit fans harder.

If they included everything Tyrion did in the books people would still love him.

Hell the tv audience loves Tywin.

[lyanna_maria]

Since you're mentioning other show's anti-hero main characters (it's very in fashion nowadays to deal with the disturbing notion that we can easily get to root for "the bad guy"), Nucky Thompson from Boardwalk Empire comes to my mind: it's the most similar case to Tyrion I can think of. He had had a questionable morality during the whole show, but after killing Jimmy and starting ordering murders like he ordered dinner it became clear to me that he was "bad". That was the only difference: I still want him to win over the other gangsters, and I still acknowledge some good actions of him when he has them.

So, in a time where we are used to rooting for guys like Nucky, Walter White and all the ones that you mentioned before, I don't think it's going to be a problem with Tyrion after commiting this horrible act.

[Bridgeburners]

Frankly, just about every character in the book is a monster, so what reason is there to be disillusioned?

We can all argue the morals and ethics of his choice until we are blue in the face, but surely Martin was trying to convey something similar to what Jules Verne conveyed in Captain Nemo: there is a villain in every hero and a hero in every villain, and just how things play out is a matter of culture and context. Tyrion was meant to appear the monster, but in the back of your mind you should recognize that he was MADE into the monster. He even says to Jaime something along the lines of, "I am the monster you all thought me to be." Shae helped make that monster as much as Tywin. It is ridiculous to me that people are so willing to accept Oberyn's actions, but somehow want to make Tyrion into a complete villain.

I promise that you and other disillusioned fans will be in a very tiny minority, if they choose to play out the Shae saga even remotely like it is in the books. People in the modern world love a good anti-hero

ETA: Forgiving a few qualities, Tyrion is almost your quintessential Byronic hero

You're right, there's hardly any 'good' characters by our standards. Even Ned and Robb are willing to start a massive war over family disputes and bloodline. I'd say there are a few, though. Brienne, Sansa, Jamie (post-dismemberment, you still can't really forgive him for his earlier stuff), Septon Meribald, Craster, Samwell... (okay 'Craster' was a joke, sorry about that)

The thing is, with Tyrion, it's not that killing Shae was the most monstrous thing done in the series, but I think it was the biggest moral plunge of a character in a series. Seeing Tyrion strangling Shae is a lot more shocking than, say, seeing someone like Raff the Sweetling stick a spear in Lommy, although they're both horrible monstrous acts. Thus the disillusionment. It would be especially more disillusioning on TV since TV-Tyrion is a lot less morally grey than book-Tyrion (pre Shae-strangling), and Shae seems like a much more likeable, strong woman (at least IMO).

I wouldn't call it Tyrion showing his typical shades of grey, as much as him just plunging into a much more questionable character. The difference is, in your description, it would seem like the kind of thing Tyrion would just ordinarily do before his life went to shambles post-PW, which is certainly not the case. I'd say it's more along the lines of Nucky's downfall in BWE, from lyanna_maria's clever analogy.